Sabbat Clans

[Lestat]

I was wondering if those of you who play the PnP version of VtM could answer the following question: what clan do you think the two types of sabbat footsoldiers are? You know, the neandertal with guns on the one hand and the animalistic, long-armed retards on the other hand.

[yrthwyndandfyre]

[QUOTE=Lestat]I was wondering if those of you who play the PnP version of VtM could answer the following question: what clan do you think the two types of sabbat footsoldiers are? You know, the neandertal with guns on the one hand and the animalistic, long-armed retards on the other hand.[/QUOTE]

Funny. "Animalistic, long-armed retards". Snort...

That's a good question, especially in light of the initial training run. Jack tells you that the 'retard' was probably just bashed over the head and turned, but if I remember my bloodlines correctly, that level of Gangrel is about level 4. A fledgeling caitiff that drank for the first time like 18 seconds ago shouldn't have been able to take it out. I'm guessing that they are probably one of those bloodlines that didn't make it into the game as an option. Now that you mention it, I'm curious, too.

Also, just out of sheer morbid curiosity, Ya_eh curses Caine with immortality for killing Abel. Rumor has it that He cursed Longinus with immortality for stabbing Jesus in the side with a spear when he was crucified. Why is it that Ya_eh's curses always seem to involve living forever? Do you suppose he knows something that we don't?

Oh, and I blanked out the middle letter of that name in deference to the Judaism principle that one should never spell out the name of God, not because it is a dirty word.

[Lucita]

Well I think VTM is a bit simple with it's Sabbat henchmen....They probably represent the hodgepodge of Brujah Antitribu and City Gangrels the Sabbat uses as Cannon Fodder. 99 percent of the Lasombra and Tzimisce wouldn't walk around that way....
I think that's one of the sad points in the game...you aren't able to have Sabbat ending, though it would be realistic too. More realistic then having a Kuei Jin ending anyways....

[Lestat]

@ Lucita
Agreed, the game could use a bit more variation in the baddies, if only graphically.

I don't know a lot of the "World of Darkness"-game world, and from that perspective it might be more logical to have a sabbat-ending (them being kindred) than a kuei-jin ending. But if you follow the internal logic of the computer game it is less logical: the sabbat persistently hit, shoot and insult you, while Ming-Xiao is only really openly nasty when you attack her.

But back to the clans: if I understand well Antitribu are those originating from a clan that belongs to the Camarilla, but have cast their lot with the Sabbat? And if so, does the reverse also happen (Tzimisce & LaSombra vampires working with the Camarilla)?

@ yrth
Concerning being cursed by living forever: Tolkien touches on the question in the Silmarillion where he calls death "a gift" to humankind, a gift of which the elves are to a certain extent jealous. And they are living forever on Earth, while those of us who have been good, will go on to a better life after death, or so it is said .

[Lucita]

[QUOTE=Lestat]
Agreed, the game could use a bit more variation in the baddies, if only graphically.

I don't know a lot of the "World of Darkness"-game world, and from that perspective it might be more logical to have a sabbat-ending (them being kindred) than a kuei-jin ending. But if you follow the internal logic of the computer game it is less logical: the sabbat persistently hit, shoot and insult you, while Ming-Xiao is only really openly nasty when you attack her.

But back to the clans: if I understand well Antitribu are those originating from a clan that belongs to the Camarilla, but have cast their lot with the Sabbat? And if so, does the reverse also happen (Tzimisce & LaSombra vampires working with the Camarilla)?

[/QUOTE]


Well...they could have set up an opposing storyline, if you want to change sides at one point of the story, or something like pretending to work for the prince but helping the Sabbat along ( like with the Anarchs ).


To the Antitribu....Yeah, antitribu ( anti tribe ) are those Clanmembers opposed to the believes ( sect wise ) from the main Clan. Members from all Clans ( save the Giovanni and later on the Tremere ) have antitribu members in the Sabbat, even the independant ones like the Assamite, Ravnos and Setites.

A very small faction of antitribu Lasombra and Tzimisce exists in the Camarilla. The Lasombra antitribu might number a few dozen to one hundred, the Tzimisce not more then a dozen. Though a lot of Tzimisce are independent and don't care for any sect at all...

The "real" Lucita became the best known Lasombra Antitribu by the way, she even has been an Archon for the Camarilla. Shortly before Gehenna happened she cast in her lot with the Sabbat though because she thought they might be able to stop the Anteliduvians instead of ignoring them like the Camarilla did.

[yrthwyndandfyre]

[QUOTE=Lestat]
@ yrth
Concerning being cursed by living forever: Tolkien touches on the question in the Silmarillion where he calls death "a gift" to humankind, a gift of which the elves are to a certain extent jealous. And they are living forever on Earth, while those of us who have been good, will go on to a better life after death, or so it is said .[/QUOTE]

The Silmarillion wasn't written by J.R.R. Tolkein. It was written by his son from his notes after his death. I do, however, tend to agree with the rationale.

[fable]

This really belongs over in the PnP Discussion thread, so I'm moving it there.

[GravenWraith]

Quoting the "Book of Nod":

A great war was waged, the Elders against
their Children,
just as Uriel had said,
And the Children slew their parents.
They rose up
Used fire and wood
Swords and claws
To destroy those who had created them
The rebels then built a new city.
Out of the fallen Empire,
they collected the Thirteen clans
that had been scattered by the Great War,
and brought them all together,
They brought in the Kingship Clan
[Ventrue],
the Clan of the Beast [Gangrel],
the Moon Clan [Malkavian],
the Clan of the Hidden [Nosferatu],
the Vanderer Clan [Ravnos],
the Clan of the Rose [Toreador],
the Night Clan [Lasombra],
the Clan of Shapers [Tzmisces],
the Snake Clant [Setites],
the Clan of Death [Giovanni],
the Healer's Clan [Saulot],
the Clan of the Hunt [Assamites],
and the Learned Clan [Brujah].

Only se7en of these clans are playable in bloodlines, and you come across 2 others (Tzimisce and Giovanni). Perhaps the sabbat clans in question are of the listed clans not specifically mentioned in the game...

[Lucita]

Nice try, but the book of Nod and the ideological distinction between Camarilla and Sabbat has not really anything to do with each other.

Camarilla and Sabbat were formed in the 15th century, after the Anarch Uprising and the Inquisition.

Their Clans are:

Camarilla

Ventrue
Tremere
Gangrel
Brujah
Toreador
Nosferatu
Malkavian Antitribu ( yep, the main Clan followed the Sabbat )


Sabbat

Lasombra
Tzimisce
Malkavian
Antitribus of all Clans ( save the Giovanni, there is no such thing as Giovanni Antitribu )


Independent

Assamite
Giovanni
Ravnos
Setite

Note: There are Bloodlines like the Samedi, Gargolyes and Najagara who might be members of both sects, independent or whatever else.
There are several other factions in Vampire as well, the Inconnu, the Ta'l ma'Ra, the Anarchs and Autarkis. Those aren't as vissible though as the Camarilla and the Sabbat.

Another note: Several Clans have fallen and are extinct ( or near extinct ), i.e. the Book of Nod mentions the "Healer Clan" and Saulot as their Anteliduvian, this Clan, the Salubri, have been next to destroyed by the Tremere, who ursupered their place in the early 11th century. Likewise the Giovanni, they destroyed the original Clan of Death, the Cappadocians in the 15th century.

[pennypincher]

Don't forget, a large number of Sabbat "Shovelheads" are what are called "Panda's"... Because the sabbat "Pandas" to their illusion that they are a clan, he he he. They are bascicaly Clanless, thin blood scum bags who have joined the Sabbat being told that they will be given more respect and be treated like a clan... The sabbat do this of course, but it has little meaning in a group of vampires were your forced to live in hovels, fight for your food and kill your friends to prove your no longer human. Huzzar, I'm respected...

The Tzimisce take great delight in "altering" these Pandas to make them more war like and efficent. Bone Armor, claws, five eyes, mouths all over their bodies... Just some of their wounderful inventions. It could be that many of the people you kill in the game are confused, lonley clanless dirt bags with their faces and bodies smeered around untill they are more efficent killers.

[Lucita]

Lol..you mean the Panders, yep the Sabbat granted them "honory Clan" Status. I would say there aren't that many around, maybe 100. Those thin blooded Caitiffs are usually just to weak to stand up against someone older.
The Tzimisce usually use human ghouls for their experiments. Those creatures you are battling in VTM were once human.....nice thought eh ?

[Lestat]

Thanks for the enlightenment, ye worthy scholars and loremasters/mistresses.

Another question though on clans in the computer game: in Hallowbrook hotel, shortly before meeting Andrei, there is this guy in the large hallway on the balcony with staircases, who is throwing around blue fire like mad (I stealth killed him both times with my blade now, I just love the sound and graphics of doing that). Any opinion on his clan? I remember Andrei using similar blue fire in the earlier quest "Going the way of Kings", so maybe he is a lowlevel Tzimisce who hasn't crafted himself into "a thing of terrible beauty" yet?

[Lucita]

Hmmm...I think he was supposed to be a Tremere Antitribu or at least someone schooled in Thaumaturgy....
The Tremere antitribu were destroyed in the original Pen and Paper Game though, before the events of VTM. But maybe one or two survived. Or it's a member of another Clan who learnt Thaumaturgy from them.

[pennypincher]

Maybe half a dozen Tremere Antitribue survived the purge... Those not of Goratrix's blood anyway, the rest were utterly wiped out. Other clans that favour some Thurmaturgy and spirit magics in the sabbat are.

Assamite Antitrube... However, it's unlikley such Angels Of Caine would be quite so blatant, favouring more cunning powers like movement of the mind and spirit thurmaturgy.

Tzimisce. Members of the old clan take coldunic magics in favour of Vicissitude, knowing it for the abomination it is... However most of them border on acient, so I can't see them losing to a neonate quite so casualy.

Another option is, it could have been a Ravnos Antitribue with a TOTAL lack of wit or subtley... However thats very unlikley. If it was a Ravnos Antitribue, it would be more likley that there was no hotel at all and you would be lost in it's corridors untill dawn when suddenly the whole image faded away, you realised your in an empty car park and the sun erradicates you almost instantly.

[Lucita]

From the Walkthrough:

When you reach the center of this room, a Tremere Antitribu walks to the center of the balcony and begins conjuring blue flames all around you. He even produces a shield in front of himself, which is impenetrable from the front. Kill the two annoying thugs firing at you from above, then move all the way up to the wall just below the mage and fire at him from an angle. Once he drops, all the flames are extinguished and you can move to the next rooms. It won't be much farther before you come to a staircase with a door at its end.

So looks like an Tremere Antitribu....