Grand Theft Auto: SA - Rating revisited.

[Xandax]

So - after the mod which unlocked some sexual content in the Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas game has caused the game to get a new rating.

Take 2 had otherwise claimed the content was added by a hacker (the guy who made the mod to unlock it), but apparently - the content was also found in the game for other platforms (busted ).

Now - what I don't understand (and I know a number of other people), is how a computer game with as much graphic violence and murder as GTA can have a Mature raiting (age 17+ as I understand it), but when some simulated sexual content is added/found -it causes an Adult Only.
I personally don't play GTA, so I dont' have first hand experience with the graphical nature of this "new" content, but as I understand from sources it shouldn't be all that explicit in nature.

Does violence vs. sexual content infact cause such a huge difference in the US, I had always thought it was simply a "joke" about the US hyphocracy made by europeans, but is it indeed that violence and murder is accepted moreso then simulated sexual content?

Anyway - thoughts?


Links:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/fun.games/ ... index.html
http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/action/gta4 ... lashtop_bg

[Aegis]

What I find most amusing is that the difference between a Mature rating, and Adult rating, is in a simple addition to the criteria, involving the length of such scenes of violation or sexual content.

[Cuchulain82]

It is largely due to election-year politicing. Hillary Clinton (wife of former Pres. Bill Clinton and current New York Senator) is leading the charge against the game. Much of the spin here in NY City says that this is an attempt to position herself for reelection next year to the senate, a presidential run in 2008, or both. Supposedly she is trying to take some of the moral high ground away from the Republican-right.

[VonDondu]

[QUOTE=Xandax]Does violence vs. sexual content infact cause such a huge difference in the US, I had always thought it was simply a "joke" about the US hyphocracy made by europeans, but is it indeed that violence and murder is accepted moreso then simulated sexual content?[/QUOTE]
Yes, it's true. Americans routinely accept violence and murder, but nudity and explicit sex are seen as a terrible threat to our nation's children. Feel free to joke about it all you want; it is pretty funny.

However, I would like to clarify a couple of things. First of all, violence and killing are acceptable only if the victims are nameless strangers or, in an ironic twist, certain kinds of celebrities. For example, TV shows about crime in the U.S. depict hundreds of deaths every week, and the public eats it up. But when a major character on the TV show M*A*S*H was killed during a war (the show itself was about war, and last time I checked, a lot of people get killed during war), the audience freaked out. As for fake celebrity deaths, jokes about assassinating the President are not acceptable, but it was okay for David Lee Roth to show Billy Idol being electrocuted in one of his music videos, and it was okay for a little old lady in the movie Mars Attacks to laugh and say, "They blew up Congress! Ha, ha!" when the Martians wiped out the entire legislative branch of the government. And of course, it's perfectly okay to see cartoons in which people like Osama bin Laden or Saddam Hussein are brutalized, humiliated, or killed.

Second of all, Americans are actually fascinated by sex, but some of them just don't want to admit it.

Have you seen the movie T.E.A.M. America? I saw it recently for the first time (I didn't think I would like it), and I just became aware of the controversy that surrounded its initial release. The movie features puppets instead of live actors. There's a sex scene in it that almost earned the film an "adults only" rating until it was cut back. In its final form, the sex scene looks exactly like a scene I once saw in the cable TV series Sex and the City (although there's really something disturbing about seeing puppets doing the same things that humans do). The parts that were cut featured fetishes such as S&M and certain things I won't mention here. (I haven't seen the uncut version; I've only read about it.) You can see the original scene if you buy the "Director's Cut" on DVD. In light of everything else that's "wrong" with the film, I don't know why the puppet sex was that big of a deal.

[Denethorn]

[QUOTE=VonDondu]You can see the original scene if you buy the "Director's Cut" on DVD. In light of everything else that's "wrong" with the film, I don't know why the puppet sex was that big of a deal.[/QUOTE]

The UK theatrical and DVD version are the uncut and I found that scene hilarious tbh. I think some of the "puppet violence and gore" is far more damaging to children . Interestingly, it only received a 15 certificate I believe

Something else to add to the mix: drugs. Did Senator Clinton not think that the supreme drug content of San Andreas warrants an AO rating? I've only played part way through the game and I've seen pedestrians walk around smoking marajuana, numerous cutscenes involving a major character smoking pot/crack, you are forced to raid a drug users den with junkies (some of whom receiving comical, but nevertheless obvious, oral sex ) you become involved in drug rings etc etc.

Worse to young audiences is that hard drug abuse is portrayed humorously - not the gritty realistic satire a la Trainspotting - instead you get a general drugs are cool/exotic/funny/great impression. Ofcourse to the appropriate audience that's fine.

Seems bizarre to me that a nation is more concerned about children viewing non-explicit sex scenes than they are about persistent hard drug abuse.

[Galuf the Dwarf]

My perceptions of drug content in GTA:SA.

[QUOTE=Denethorn]
Something else to add to the mix: drugs. Did Senator Clinton not think that the supreme drug content of San Andreas warrants an AO rating? I've only played part way through the game and I've seen pedestrians walk around smoking marajuana, numerous cutscenes involving a major character smoking pot/crack, you are forced to raid a drug users den with junkies (some of whom receiving comical, but nevertheless obvious, oral sex ) you become involved in drug rings etc etc.

Seems bizarre to me that a nation is more concerned about children viewing non-explicit sex scenes than they are about persistent hard drug abuse.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I play San Adreas as well, and I can say I've witnessed this stuff too (minus the 'major character drug use' part, but I may be mistaken).

I wonder if whoever is concerned about game content sees the drug abuse as the least of 3 evils. Explicit sex is possibly viewed as more inspirational and dangerous.

Besides, drugs are often used as more of a joke. As of these day, many Americans do joke with stuff like "What have you been smoking?" or "Are you on crack?" where as years ago is did seem a slight bit cleaner. There's likely a difference in common drug references by anyone for the young adult generations of 2 decades before versus the last 10 years. If drugs were such a big issue, movies like 'Half Baked' or anything by Cheech & Chong would likely be banned. I'd really say drug use in entertainment isn't seen as something young adults & minors will be inspired to do. It's looked at as humor or just a side to characters that not everyone crosses.

Besides, drugs are somewhat taboo as is - at least by the standards of the law. Sex is percieved as more of a natural part of life.

[Denethorn]

Which is precisely my point Seems to be strange that sex is viewed as more dangerous than drugs .

Lord knows what this extreme opposition to any form of sexual content does to America's youth

[Magrus]

*coughs* You all know my views on sharing, sex, and such. It gets me in trouble. People around me can't handle it. Apparently, even if you just hired a hooker and caught the clap on a weekend binge, you can't be seen kissing your wife out in public because that's "naughty".

Hypocrasy abounds. I'm brutally honest about what goes on with me and people think I make stuff up. Why? They just don't hear about that kind of things except in dirty movies or magazines. I once had a police officer threaten to charge me with harrassment for telling a story to a friend of mine. Mind you, I wasn't in a daycare center or anything. I was walking down the road, at night, just a friend and I when we were pulled over to be asked where we were going and he threatened it because he was offended.

I have friends who do drugs, sell drugs, whatever. I myself, and my friends who have had horrible things done to us, and I've joined them in doing horrible things to get even. Violence, sex and drugs are being promoted to the youth by the media. That isn't the major player in the cause behind it. It's the boy's father, or mother, or older sister, or neighbor. If your older problem is smoking a joint in the backyard, chances are your going to want to try it too. If your dad is drinking all the time, chances are your going to steal a bottle of his at least once and try it.

Most people I know who have a drinking/drug problem started because of a desire to be like a family member, or simple curiousity and a "this is cool" attitude led them to keep doing so until they were addicted.

Most people I know how have a problem with violence have issues of some sort, live in a rough neighborhood where being too much of a hassle to beat up keeps them from ending up in the hospital every month, or they think it's "cool" to be violent. I admit, I view certain situations as worthy of someone catching a beating for it, but I know people who wander around looking for someone just to beat up as a cure for boredom.

No, I don't think movies and video games are causing these problems to be worse. For myself, hacking at someone in a video game has been the perfect way for me to avoid going after someone who'd just slugged me on the way home. Knowing that I could vent my anger in a game instead of on the street has probably kept me out of jail more times than I can remember. This is all just political crap, struggling to make people think our would-be leaders are somehow "pure" and "wonderful".

[QUOTE=Denethorn]Lord knows what this extreme opposition to any form of sexual content does to America's youth [/QUOTE]

Have you seen any footage of American teens in the last 30-40 years? Or statistics of teen pregnancy? Have you seen the clothes the girls are wearing?

I happen to deal with young females who are just straight up closet freaks. Can't express what they want until their boyfriends push them to it, then they go all out and then they get embarrassed and make their guys swear not to tell anyone. Idiocy if you ask me. If you enjoy something, enjoy it, don't be embarrassed by it. They can prance around in skin-tight clothes, or half naked, but they can't be honest about what they do.

[Cuchulain82]

[QUOTE=Magrus]Have you seen the clothes the girls are wearing? ...I happen to deal with young females who are just straight up closet freaks. Can't express what they want until their boyfriends push them to it, then they go all out and then they get embarrassed and make their guys swear not to tell anyone. Idiocy if you ask me. If you enjoy something, enjoy it, don't be embarrassed by it. They can prance around in skin-tight clothes, or half naked, but they can't be honest about what they do. [/QUOTE]
I've said it before and I'll say it again- when the fashion of the time involves pre-pubescent girls wearing skin-tight clothes that say "Juicy" or "Sexy" across the derierre, it is indicative of a cultural shift that I think is bad.

Sex is, well, whatever you make of it. I personally think that not making anything of it (or not making it often enough- zing! ) leads to unhealthy ideas of sex. Freaks are freaks, and as long as all participants are okay with any behavior then it is fine by me. However, this is an adult decision, and I think that banning video game content is dealing with the effect, not the cause.

[Magrus]

Exactly! It's just an easy thing for politicians to target and point the blame at because fixing things would be far more work for them than blaming something like that. It won't make the problem any better, but it makes the voters feel something is "being done to make things better".

[Galuf the Dwarf]

Galuf on sexual content.

Let's not forget, though, that drug use and committing violence against innocent bystanders are still outlawed, so compared, sex would be okay to do - if it doesn't lead to either of the two (ie: rape, prostitution, etc.). It's okay to have sex (especially if the behavior does not cross the law), so it's harder to control.

You're not allowed to abuse controlled substances, or even consume alcohol in conjuction with numerous activities that require a full and clean conscience. However, abuse of sex is not as easy to control, because it's a part of human (and animal) nature and has boundaries that are far less defined than drugs or violence. Many humans do not exactly know how much is good or bad for them. What the law may see as suit may not work for one person.

In many ways, sexual content may or may not feed the beast in someone. Even I have a beast inside me waiting to be unleashed, but I also have a conscience that's a powerful tamer. It's in all of us, but each beast is different than the other. Some are more tame, and others more wild.

Talking about sex to individuals (in this case, minors) may not be as easy as talking to them about drugs or violence. Sex is something you really don't talk about that often since it's really too private. Sure, you have folks that may brag of their exploits, but that's often exaggeration. Intimate lives aren't exactly what everyone shares together. In many ways, people may feel forced to keep that hidden no matter the cost. They just don't like to share such with many people, not even the people they respect the most.

In the end, I don't see San Andreas as a major cause of such, but it's like they say: "Better safe than sorry."

[Magrus]

It's ridiculous to ignore it because it makes someone uncomfortable though. Just with people I consider, or have considered a part of my life as friends, lovers, etc I have known a lot of people that have dealt with pregnancy by the age of 18. Some as early as 13. People aren't being educated except what is seen in movies or heard about by older siblings or friends.

The crap that's going on with many schools because of all of this conservative nonsense being pushed by the government is going to end up with simply more and more clamoring for people to cut out whats in movies and games thats "dirty". It won't solve the problem, it will make it worse IMO. We'll have more teen pregnancies and parents who can't take care of their kids, more people spreading STD's and then all of that political nonsense that those in power did to get more votes will have failed.

Sex, done correctly, is in no way harmful. Far too many people think it happens to be some dirty secret you can't let outside of your bedroom however. As for my own views, sex, drugs, guns, violence, it's all reality. You'll find it walking down the street, why should it be something censored in a video game or movie? If you shelter your kids so they are oblivious to reality until you boot them out of the house to enter the "real world" and get a job and place of their own you do no one any favors. They will be just that, oblivious to reality, with no way to deal with those things their parents kept from them and chances are will be at high risk for ending up dealing with just those things which were kept hidden from them. More likely in a dangerous manner than not too.

[Denethorn]

The forbidden fruit must always be tasted. UK has one of the worst teen pregnancy rates in Europe or something along those lines - while on the continent, sex is a far more open and normal subject and thus they don't have the problems .

Similar thing can be applied to other problems: drinking and drugs.

Masking an issue never stops it. Forcing a censor on two (not even nude ) video game characters moving sexually will not stop (or inspire to) people having sex.

As I said it must be immensely confusing and damaging to America's youth - this media frenzy with senators and campaigners surrounding a comical sex scene in an adult game - is sex so socially taboo?

To quote the satirical Maddox (who I can't link to for obvious reason, but has a good article on this which I recommend you check out ):

I want to shoot people in the face, bang prostitutes, traffic drugs, steal cars, and terrorize police officers without this filthy smut in my game. Frankly, I'm appalled that Rockstar would allow such wholesale corruption of our youth. Years from now when America has become a withered husk of the morality it once stood for, historians will look back at what triggered it all and point to one event: a boolean variable that unlocked a simulated sex scene in a video game.

[Ekental]

The problem is, the game should have been for adults only anyways since its inception. As for the "Hot Coffee mod" that was introduced by a third party. There seem to be a difference in the explicitness of the sexual situation between the mod and the in game version.
Either way, making GTA adult only might just be a death sentence for a game with such a larger audience under the 17 mark as well as over.

As for violence v sex. I think the supposed reasoning is more of a violence & sex creates the "adult" rating rather than only violence. Although you could also argue there arent really any mainstream games with explicit sexual content, so any game with such an event may meet resistance, as all new things do?

[Chimaera182]

[QUOTE=Magrus]Have you seen any footage of American teens in the last 30-40 years? Or statistics of teen pregnancy? Have you seen the clothes the girls are wearing?[/QUOTE]
My Fiction teacher this spring had a funny story about girls like that. He was in the mall, haven of all things clothes and girl-related, and he saw these 14 year old girls walking around in something Britney Spears--his words--would wear. And one of the girls called him a pervert for staring, which he says he wasn't even doing, but you can never tell nowadays. But it's silly of those girls to completely overreact to someone possibly looking at what they've put on display anyway. If he'd been their age or just a little older, they probably would have enjoyed the looking, giggled about it, and something completely different might have come of the situation. It's stupid, but so are a lot of things in life.

This whole business with GTA: SA is another stupid thing in life; and it couldn't have come at a worse time, too; I was just getting ready to get it, and now I can't find it anywhere. I saw a friend playing it a few weeks ago, and I watched him run around with a chainsaw and carve up a dozen pedestrians (he won't go dark sided in any Star Wars games, though, and I still can't figure out why). How is it people won't bat an eye towards that kind of gratuitous violence, but the moment pixelated intercourse is introduced, you've got people all over the issue? Someone mentioned Mrs. Clinton was after it since it's election time, and that's a rather cynical remark. It's also probably at least 95% true, and kudos to you for being cynical enough to think it. Also, given the way violence has pretty much permeated American society--it's everywhere, but that can be said about anywhere in the world, as well--we're pretty desensitized to it. Sure, we don't want our kids around it, but we're not as stringent on it. But if it's sex, a completely natural process--well, usually--then we have issues. That's not something kids should be exposed to, and people will fight to preserve the innocence of their children. Not that that's a bad cause, of course, but it's hypocritical to protect a child's innocence in one way but allow them to be completely corrupted another way. Not that there weren't ways of keeping violent games or movies out of their reach, either. So now, what's the freaking problem?

We keep games and movies out of our kids' reach because they're violent, and we keep stuff out of our kids' reach because they contain sexual content. It's not like GTA: SA wasn't already rated Mature. It's silly to get worked up over something like this, but I'm sure at the core of the matter are very selfish motivations as to why people are getting worked up over this (and some of us are pointing fingers at you, Hillary). And in the end, that's probably what this all really boils down to: someone's selfish aggrandizement sparking a rage amongst actual honest people.

And that Maddox does appear wise, Denethorn.

[Hill-Shatar]

Im betting that the majority of the people here have walked around the mall and been called a pervert. Even though these girls are now wearing see through shirts and shorts that go so high that I doubt there wearing anything underneath, they find that there is no reason that guys should find this mildly interesting, annoying, or embarrassing, when they are standing behind someone in line and find that they are wearing less then the average stripper.

Many north American governments are making numurous accusations, predominantly among them being the US, however you will find that other countries, such as England, France, Germany, Canada(where I reside), and many others are more lax about it then they are. US officials and parent groups have been complaining about video games for decades now. They have spent the majority of time trying to show soething related between violent video games and reality violence. I find, however, that what they consider to be too much, rated Gore, is not much worse then plain violence, the only distinction now being that there may be more blood in gore and the odd body part falls off, other than just the plain slashes, cuts, beheadings, mutilations, ect, found in ordinary violence in games. The governments find that violence is less dangerous than sexuality, which surprises me. I highly doubt that any 7 year old kid finds much difference in a video game that has woman wearing tight jeans and bikinis, then the apparently worse stuff in day to day life, that you can find not only opn beaches, but just walking down the street.

Comical sex, or even incredibly highly animated with just stickm an, seems to strike a chord with many officiials, for things I can not fathom. Perhaps, in their lifestyles, they are not subjected as much to day to day media and reality sexuality as we are. The fact that they find that sexual content, which is instinctual and natural in humans, is more of a danger to the typical child then agame featuring a person wondering arund with a chainsaw anyways.

The US government would lead you to believe that they are against anything to wild or violent in games, but just this moring I turned on the TV to see a lovely (sarcasm) picture of a man with his body mangled and the head lying several feet away on the news. I turned the channel to watch my favorite show, CSI, and its an episode with a skinned gorilla and a headless men with the beginning invloving two mostly naked girls running from a van with a pervert inside. Im subjected more to violenced and sex in the morning news than any other thing I can think off. I have friends who does drugs, but anyone knows that you cant turn them away from it. I here about it everyday. Hearing it from the game was actually more of a surpressed version, then what you can find in real life, if you look for it.

[VonDondu]

A Norwegian website has just published a screenshot that provides further proof that GTA:SA has scenes in it that will corrupt the youth of the world. No, I'm not talking about the guy who's beating another guy to death with a baseball bat; that's okay. I'm talking about the TV in the background that is displaying a scene from a pornographic movie. Neither the woman nor the man in the porno is nude, but they are clearly engaged in an immoral sex act. There's no telling what sort of harm such a scene could cause a 13-year-old child.

[Chimaera182]

Well, that is damaging to a 13 year old who shouldn't have access to such a game anyway.