Anyone finished this game without cheating (spoilers?)

[pdblake]

This is a great game but I found certain parts impossible to do without using God mode.


For instance, the demon thing/tzimisch(sp) (forgotten it's name), in the search for the Nosferatu primogen. I just couldn't kill it.

The werewolf. I know the walkthrough says to just run like hell, but the damn game puts you right at its feet practically. I must have reloaded a couple of dozen times and gotten about three paces each time before being ripped apart.

Don't know about the sherrif or the behomoth (big bat thing) as I decided to leave God mode on by that point, but both were a sod to kill.

Finally ming's demon form, just as bad as the tzimisch(sp) thing.


Also at one point I had to go back to previous save and reload as the dialog and quest log screwed up (when you are told to go meet with nines). Simply reloading and talking to la Croix again fixed it all but it was really weird. Beckett stopped me in the street and started telling me abouth the hunters (previous quest) again. The anarchs wouldn't even talk to me and la Croix just kept telling me to meet with nines (but no quest log update). Weird.

[Faust]

Really? Wow. My guess is that most of us here on the forum have beaten it without cheating. I actually did so pre-patch without any serious problems, and I have a fairly mediocre pc. I never found Bloodlines that difficult of a game, though I suppose it had its trickier moments. Regardless, there are tips on most of the things you had problems with here in the forums, if you try the game again. Certaintly, some disciplines make the boss encounters (and potentially the werewolf encounter) easier than others (celerity, fortitude...). So one of those clans, may be more your style.

[Lestat]

I went through the whole game 5 times already and each time without cheating. Unless of course you consider reloading when you did something stupid (such as dying) as cheating .

Admittedly, to get past the werewolf depended each time more on luck than skill and each time I played the game I dreaded this quest. I would happily forego the XP associated with it in exchange for not having the frustration of going through it. But no such luck (but there is a whole thread dedicated to that issue). It took me a lot of reloads though.
BTW hiding works better than running.

Concerning Andrei, the Tzimisce:
1st time you confront him (in "Going the Way of Kings"), the easiest way to get through the encounter is to get on the table in the large room and start shooting at him whereever he appears. The headrunners can't reach you there and there will be only one, once Andrei is taking care of in this way.
2nd time you confront him (in "Hell at Hollowbrook Hotel"), there are two relatively safe places from which you can take shots at him: on the platform at the entrance and underneath the platform on the right hand side (when standing with your back to the entrance).

For Mings demon form: search the forum but essentially you have to adapt your technique to your skills & disciplines and have the necessary "blood recharge" ready (odious chalice & elder vitae packs). I usually needed the use the odious chalice (fully charged) and sometimes an elder vitae pack (but never two).
Same for the sheriff and his bat form (though maybe more bloodpacks needed).

[pdblake]

Well I'm trying again with a Malkavian at the mo, this time with no cheats.

Thanks for the tips on Andrei.

To be honest I think my biggest problem is constantly forgetting about the disciplines.

Speaking of disciplines, how do you manage to max them out while still keeping decent character stats? You don't seem to get too many XP points to spend.

[Lestat]

Basically, you need to specialise to a certain degree: while you put points in all of your disciplines, you augment only a certain group of your attributes & skills. Take a look at the autolevel schemes in the section dedicated to VtM:B to get an idea of what's possible and don't forget to use the tomes.
The beauty of the game is that you can't have a character that's good at everything, so you have to choose a certain "path".

[pdblake]

Thanks, I'll take a look

[Faust]

Lestat is correct. Each character you design in Bloodlines has the potential to be different from others. You will never be able to design a character - without cheating - who is good at everything they can possibly do.

Personally, it sounds like your largest problem with the game has been that you don't rely on your disciplines much. Disciplines are incredibly powerful. If used properly, disciplines like fortitude, celerity, dominate, obfuscate, thaumaturgy and animalism can great decrease the difficulty to the game (and each of these disciplines I mention requires a different set of strategies to operate at optimal effectiveness). As such, to truly tap into your character's abilities, you should spend some of your experience bringing those disciplines to respectable levels. This does not mean, however, that you'll want to max them all out (some disciplines will not fit into your play style, and, thus, not be worth the experience points), but every clan has certain disciplines which are of great aid to them.

In terms of attributes, personally, I never spent a great many points on physical attributes. The "blood buff" ability that all vampires have allows you to boost all of your physical attributes to their maximum value for short intervals of time. As such, it was never worth a great many experience points to me. Others would disagree, finding the blood cost to be too high for "blood buff."

Regardless, the suggestion to look at the "auto-level" scheme is a pretty good one. It will help you get acclamated to some effective leveling schemes.

[Shellhead]

I haven't quite finished this game, because the battle with the Sheriff has been too much work and not enough fun for me to finish so far. Otherwise, the only time that I cheated was when I used the no_clip cheat to get through that swimming challenge in the nosferatu tunnels. I'm playing a second game right now (well, not recently), and one of the patchs must have fixed the swimming problem, because I got through it without no_clip this time.

[yrthwyndandfyre]

[QUOTE=pdblake]To be honest I think my biggest problem is constantly forgetting about the disciplines.[/QUOTE]
Learning to use your disciplines and vampiric abilities (like feeding), I found, was extremely important in Bloodlines. Doubtlessly very much like you, I came from the land of shoot-em-up and had the devil's own time with bloodlines until I finally got through my head the idea that my PC is a vampire not Sgt. Rock. The game becomes much more playable (and fun) once you realize that you should be playing your character as a vampire. Once that realization dawned on me, sections that I'd had enormous trouble with became almost laughably simple.

Of course, the bosses are quite another thing, but even there, strategic use of your PCs gifts can be very handy.

[pdblake]

[QUOTE=yrthwyndandfyre]Doubtlessly very much like you, I came from the land of shoot-em-up[/I[/QUOTE]

Actually no, I come from the world of Elder Scrolls It's odd but in ES I rely constantly on magic. If I try to think of disciplines as spells I'll probably remeber to use them more often

[Lestat]

The disciplines are very much like spells, but since there are fewer of them (compared to spells in Morrowind) they easier to keep track of.
The pure mouse control of the disciplines (scroll wheel + rightclick) also makes for great ease of use even in the middle of a fight (above combined with hit/shoot with leftclick). As you said, it's a question of remembering they're there.

[Melchiah]

When I went through as a Malkavian I had to cheat to get the better of Ming, but only because my flamethrower was empty and I was to weak to go at her with a tal'ma'he'ra-blade, after that I just left godmode on and quickly zipped through venture tower.

[yrthwyndandfyre]

[QUOTE=pdblake]Actually no, I come from the world of Elder Scrolls It's odd but in ES I rely constantly on magic. If I try to think of disciplines as spells I'll probably remeber to use them more often [/QUOTE]

Yeah, I've played Morrowind c/w both extensions, but in Morrowind, the magic is too easy. You focus on Alchemy until you can boost your intelligence to the Nth degree, and then enchant everything in sight. I remember with great fondness my enchanted Glass armor, Daedric shield, dual Daedric longswords and innumerable everythings that allowed me to be pretty much invincible, invulnerable, invisible, able to fly, and literally jump from coast to coast in three leaps - to the point where the god-mode cheat was a non-sequitur, I being by far more powerful than any god. In Bloodlines, the magic system is much more limited, and requires a lot more finesse. To get that kind of power in Bloodlines, you would have to be given the opportunity to diablorize Caine.

[fable]

[QUOTE=yrthwyndandfyre]Yeah, I've played Morrowind c/w both extensions, but in Morrowind, the magic is too easy. You focus on Alchemy until you can boost your intelligence to the Nth degree, and then enchant everything in sight. [/QUOTE]

In all fairness, I should remark that not all of us who play MW do so to take advantage of the cheese. I've got mods running, for example, that remove the ability to make Fortify Intelligence potions, and impose severe time limits on potions or spells for Levitate, Chameleon, Invisibility, and other potential gamekillers. Bloodlines doesn't allow that kind of cheese, much to its credit, and in both games, I tend to play a kind of warrior with strong backup magic skills.

[yrthwyndandfyre]

I'm "taking advantage of the cheese", as you so fragrantly put it. These things are mine by right. I don't regard them as cheating anymore than I regard feeding in VTMB as cheating. The game designers chose to put those choices in my hands. If I manage to use them in unforeseen ways, well, them's the breaks.

[Faust]

[QUOTE=yrthwyndandfyre]I don't regard them as cheating anymore than I regard feeding in VTMB as cheating. [/QUOTE]

*cough* That would certainly add a large dimension of challenge to Bloodlines.

I'd reiterate, Morrowind and Bloodlines are very very different types of games. Bloodlines is a character driven story-centered game set in the World of Darkness. The World of Darkness, by its very nature, is suppose to be a world of supernatural and terrifying things. While your character may be a force of nature, there is always something more terrifying and powerful lurking in the shadows. Morrowind, on the other hand, is an expansive world with near limitless options. Its not as NPC and story-centered as Bloodlines (which is why it has never captivated me like Bloodlines did), and you can, essentially, become a virtual god, if you so chose. Hence, Morrowind does not define the "rules" as strictly as Bloodlines. Bloodlines needs your character to play a certain role in the story.Morrowind is more interested in allowing you to play the game anyway you like, even if that means embracing min/maxing and the "cheese."

Anyway, give the disciplines a shot. For me, they add a lot of replayability to the game (trying different discipline combinations and strategies). They are, most importantly, the true power of any vampire. While you can probably get by without using your disciplines much, you're missing out on a lot of fun and power.

[yrthwyndandfyre]

I have no desire to belabor this point, but if you are playing a game, and the game requires you to assume the role of a person you are not in Real Life, then you are playing a character-driven game. If the game has anything that can be laughingly called a story-line, then it is story based. So DOOM is a character-driven, story-based game. So is Morrowind, VTMB, Jedi Academy, Quake, Rygar, and pretty much everything else. Even in PONG, you are a table-tennis player (which I am not) playing a table-tennis game (which I don't), so in its own highly limited way, it is a character-driven story-based game. The only viable distinction is if the story-line is deep or shallow, and if your character's involvement in the story is deep or shallow. Full stop.

If you want to make a distinction, then a better one is linear versus non-linear. VTMB is linear. It enforces a certain sequence of events. Morrowind is non-linear. It doesn't enforce any sequence of events, it simply makes some sequences impossible to achieve without first achieving other sequences, however, you are fully allowed to go for the gusto right off the boat. You can't possibly succeed, but you have the option to try.

However, none of this speaks to the point. The use of magic as implemented in Morrowind does not translate to VTMB, because the systems are fundamentally different. That isn't good, bad, or indifferent. It just is. The two games occur in two different worlds, and while I'm not prepared to debate the existance of vampires in contemporary Los Angeles (having never met an Angelino vampire), I am highly certain that Los Angeles is not in Vardenfell.

[Celacena]

Chalk and cheese

in MW, with a soul-snatcher weapon (enchanted) and plenty of golden condoms to put them in, plus a bit of daedric armour or exsquisite jewellery - you can become far more powerful than any of the characters in the game. even the ugly boy down in his lava pit is no match for my MW character. i usually keep about 1m or so in cash in my lock-up and have clothing (let alone armour) that combined with my other gear allows me to walk amongst an army of golden saints etc without worrying. in other words, by playing it canny and without cheating, I was able to become an uber-powerful demigod in that world.

it then becomes too easy.

VTM is completely different. even with maxing my potential at every stage, it never becomes a stroll in the park. OK, by the time I am fighting through Ming's place, I am well set to defeat any enemies that I approach half-way sensibly, but it is never a case of being excessively powerful - the AI of the NPCs is good enough to give them a chance - even if there are strategies - such as table squatting in Kingsway - that prevent some enemies having an easy crack at the PC. still, when you have got through that and down amongst the weird scorpion-type creatures where headrunners are only cannon-fodder - the level is still a challenge and can be blown.

using the tomes to maximise the XP does get you a character with 5 points in a number of skills - for example melee & brawl - by the time you finish the museum quest - and other levels at 2/3 and your major discipline to level 4, but that is never overkill and the traffik mission can still be difficult even then.

one of the great things about VTM is how the limited resources requires you to use different strategies even playing the same clan. if you choose e.g. celerity, then you get a very different game to fortitude. this time, I am playing through with protean as a points commitment and find that last time I had protean but didn't use it really was missing out. being able to see well in the dark and have IR vision to identify targets is very useful indeed. although I have a liking for the firearms side - with protean, up close and personal is better.
with melee & brawl both 5 plus a fire axe protean and fortitude/buff - well I am not what a sabbat or tong wants to come across.

[Stuntie]

Back to the original point....

I'm currently at Ming's about to pick up a chinese takeaway consiting of sushi'd Ming with Kuai Jin sauce.

Not cheated once, don't intend to, and have had no real problems so far. (Though the big bad wolf was a real pain - couldn't we just throw a stick and run whilst it fetches it?).

The Tzmicse geko face was a tough fight first time around but easy to bake and shake with 'Visions of death' oce you stop trying to chase him, but down in the Hotel he was a breeze - almost anti-climactic. He just ran around being chased by me and Mister 'slice and dice' till he fell over and stopped moving.

The only real tough fights I've had are things like the Tong attack in the warehouse - but that's because I insisted on stealth killing them all with the axe coz it was more fun that way....

[Faust]

[QUOTE=yrthwyndandfyre]I have no desire to belabor this point, but if you are playing a game, and the game requires you to assume the role of a person you are not in Real Life, then you are playing a character-driven game. If the game has anything that can be laughingly called a story-line, then it is story based. So DOOM is a character-driven, story-based game. So is Morrowind, VTMB, Jedi Academy, Quake, Rygar, and pretty much everything else. Even in PONG, you are a table-tennis player (which I am not) playing a table-tennis game (which I don't), so in its own highly limited way, it is a character-driven story-based game. The only viable distinction is if the story-line is deep or shallow, and if your character's involvement in the story is deep or shallow. Full stop. [/QUOTE]


Fair enough. Ultimately, I was reflecting or attempting to describe the focus of the game. Bloodline is ultimately a vivid story-centered game. Meaning, the game revolves around a tightly woven central story that is full of interesting NPCs and a variety of linear and non-linear elements as you move toward the finale. Your character's growth in power and level of customization in terms of gear and identity, takes a back seat to those elements. Morrowind is not really about its central story. In fact, the central story is somewhat uninteresting, and the NPCs are largely redundant and most are not memorable. The central focus of the game is, rather, about the options of your character - the ability of your character to become and do anything they want. To me, this has always connoted a focus on customization and character development. Ultimately, I do not disagree that you have the option of calling Morrowind or Diablo "story-centered" if you mean it in the most general sense of the word. However, calling it the chief focus of the game is a misnomer. With that said, you're correct, the linear and non-linear distinction is another good way of making this point (and debatably a better one). However, even that has limitations. Morrowind, like Bloodlines, does have linear elements to see the central story of the game reach resolution. Any game with a story does, ultimately. So, honestly, most games are ultimately linear - though, the degree of freedom they permit is often quite different. I get your point, though. I hope you get mine. Certainly, Bloodlines is, ultimately, a more story driven game than Morrowind. It's a moot point, and we're probably ultimately in agreement.

But, to reiterate Stuntie's point, there are a number of ways to employ disciplines effectively. One of the things I like about Bloodlines is trying out different strategies - both with weapons, movement, and disciplines. Although, celerity has almost been a game killing discipline for me (its just both too powerful and too laggy to keep things interesting), I think everyone, ultimately, develops and plays with unique strategies. In that way, Bloodlines is more interesting than many CRPGs combat. It offers a great deal of combat versatility.