The political refugees of SYM

Dottie · Post by **Dottie** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:18 pm

Most sensible people seem to think that there is a lot wrong with political climate or the culture in the nation they live in. The taxes might be to high, or they might be to low. Perhaps the nation is controled by evil money loving capitalist swine, or perhaps it is controled by radical biological feminists. The culture might dictate woman should do all household work, or the culture might be anti-intellectual. There are endless possibilities.

So, if you had they choice to move wherever you wanted to, and there were no economical issues, which nation would you move to? What political or cultural problems bother you the most in your homeland, and what nation do you think handle these issues better?

Hill-Shatar · Post by **Hill-Shatar** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:31 pm

I would have to say I'd move to Sweden. The locals are friendly, the taxes are fair, they have little to no racism or stereotyping, the climate is enjoyable, the culture unique, and the landscape amazing.

Canada mostly has problems with regionalsim and people who have more power than they most likely should. I'm not saying that they are not qualified, just that I would rather see someone worthier sitting in that chair...

I have already seen all those happenings that have somewhat marred canadas ideals in the past... such as the mohawk INdian incident in 1990, the sponsorship scandal... stuff like this surprise me, and what punishments they are recieving. The first man who was charged has to teach a two hour class a day, and has a curfew. He teached that class for less time than the penny theif spends in jail.

He stole over 1.5 million for his own pocket and got a slap on the hand. Oh, my!

I think that all countries have some sort of problems... I am suere that that island in the pacific is angry becuase the siter of the cheftain is marrying a mere fisherman, ect, ect. Can't really get over it, all people think that the grass is greener on the other side, somewhere.

I wouldn't want to move anywhere if I had the choice. I love Canada, for a multitiude of reasons, and I hope that I will never have to leave it.

Mostly becuase of the solitude granted to us ion Calgary, you know, all us oil; rig men and lumberjacks... better than DW, she actually lives ojn the East coast.

If I had to move, I am very sure I would have to say Sweden...

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:36 pm

I'm a priviledged person inasmuch as there are no financial ties that stop me from moving whereever I want, it's another tie: the tie to the advanced techological equipment that allows me to do what I love most - work. If I want to keep my research at the same level as it is now, I can realistically only move to about 5 places in the world, all major cities in the highly industrialised world.

If I got fed up at my job for some reason, I could as well leave the industrialised society. If it weren't for my job, I'd be happy to leave materialism and all the other highly superficial life ideals of the west behind. I'd go the the Sahara, to the nomads in West Africa, as a shepherd or trader (I don't have any hopes of my cooking will improve much). I know a nice Tuareg chief who may be willing to adopt me

@Hill:

Be my guest!

Hill-Shatar · Post by **Hill-Shatar** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:47 pm

@Hill: Be my guest!

Now, CE, is that eek face really appropriate? Look who you are talking too...

If I had to move to somewhere other than those two... I would have to say Australia... wonderful place to visit and to live, I went there as a speaker a while back...

Friendliest people I have ever met, with some exceptions, of course. I did think people were surprised when I decided to stay an extra month to tour the continent...

ANother place I wouldn't mind living.

Although I am surprised that some people would give up their material possessions so easily... I am proud to say that I am addicted to coffee... but I am sure CE is.

Shes too jolly, even when its this late an night... and other things too, like the ability to make fire by turning a knob. Or that comfortable bed...

I am a heavy duty back country camper. Loved it, had to stop a while ago too, work for both me and the gf got to hectic... I can easily say that I can live without luxuries, since I can. Give me a good lake or some nice back country trials anytime.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:59 pm

Hmm... tough choice...

Do I go for climate or a culture I'd enjoy?

In terms of a cultural choice, I think I'd like living in the Netherlands, at least for a while. I am partly Dutch, and I really love the liberal values and coziness of the country.

If I had to select a place based on climate....I'd like somewhere warm and dry or a place that is icy cold during the winter. Maybe Santa Fe, New Mexico... or perhaps Iceland...

As far as Canada goes, my gripe is basically that it is often boring and really lacks dynamism ...
The Sponsorship Scandal.... *yawn*

Of course, the fact that I would rather have the Liberals in government than that fascist wannabe Stephen Harper might be another reason I'm not overly concerned about the Sponsorship Scandal.....

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 7:16 pm

hill1 wrote:Now, CE, is that eek face really appropriate? Look who you are talking too...

My eek was specifically directed towards "The locals are friendly, the taxes are fair...the climate is enjoyable". Now, you're from Canada so I can see that you're used to the subarctic climate whereas many of my friends and colleagues from more Southern regions freeze their arses off all winter in what they perceive as an engulfing darkness. However, if there is anything negative all foreign people usually notice about Sweden, it's the difficulties with social contacts. In Swedish culture, it takes a long time to learn to know people, it's normal that you don't get invited home to a colleague until after perhaps 1-2 years and it's also normal that you don't socialise outside of work. Usually, you only speak to strangers if you're drunk, and then forget about it, it doesn't mean anything. So, it's difficult to get friends without knowing someone already. However, once you have made friends with a Swede, that means real friendship - on the positive side, many foreign people are surprised by the honesty and loyalty that most Swedes take for granted.

Taxes...hehe, the pet peeve for Swedes. "Fair taxes" since they are progressive perhaps, but unfair in my opinion since they still hit too hard against people with a low income. I think Norway has a fairer tax system, but on the other hand they are much richer than we due to their oil.

If I don't leave science (which I have no plan do to), I can as well stay in Sweden because every country is a trade-off between what bad variables you can accept and what good variables you find most important. I like Scandinavia because it's the socially most fair and least segregated societies I know in the Western world, much due to tax financed education and the social wellfare systems. I can live with the bad sides in Sweden, although some days I just puke on the anti-intellectualism, the horrible naivity and that equality is often confused with social conformism rather than equal opportunities.

If there was a decent brain research lab in Norway or New Zeeland, I could very well consider these countries. Possible also Germany. But none of them are much different from Sweden socially, so I can as well stay here. Norway and New Zeeland has much more spectacular scenery, though.

I am a heavy duty back country camper. Loved it, had to stop a while ago too, work for both me and the gf got to hectic... I can easily say that I can live without luxuries, since I can. Give me a good lake or some nice back country trials anytime.

I have a background in alpine climbing, I quit due to knee injuries and also because uni ate more and more of my time. I started uni late, at 24, and before that, I spend several years on the road, travelling the globe. I had no other possessions than the clothes I walked in and some climbing equipment. I know very well I can live without material luxuries, in fact I still don't appreciate them as much as most other people I know, except for art, but art you can find in all cultures on this earth. I am still to meet a people who do not have art and music.

Living in the street in Stockholm in highly problematic, unconfortable and even dangerous so obviously I like to have a flat and furniture here, but if I didn't live in a city, what the hell would I need a bed for?

I read an article in the newspaper about some journalist who went to Wadi Rum in Jordan and "camped" on camel back in the desert while a caravan of jeeps drove around on her bed, full cooking equipment, and other western comfort items and met her and her guide every evening. Now, that's a strange form om camping - if you love your Swedish living room so much, why bother to leave it?

Chimaera182 · Post by **Chimaera182** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 6:02 am

"The one truism in all politics is that loud voices will be raised against any decision that is made."

You just have to bear the fact that your country/region isn't perfect; none of them are. But since this is a fantasy thing... somewhere in Europe. I've always wanted to visit. Maybe Sweden, as hill makes a compelling argument, or Holland, maybe even England or Germany.

Silur · Post by **Silur** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 6:43 pm

@hill1: No you don't. Trust me. You dont.

I think perhaps Antarctica. If a flock of penguins would have me, I'd be glad to join them. My main issue is with the fact that all countries are run by politicians in one form or the other, and since they generally do what most people would do in their place (ie look out for No 1), I very quickly get sick of most countries I have ever stayed in for more than a few weeks.

Hill-Shatar · Post by **Hill-Shatar** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 8:22 pm

I see that Gamebanshee has been updated in my absence...

...

I am not sure what to think.

Anyways, Silur, if you are that sure of it, then Australia is the way to go!

Or perhaps Chile...

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Oct 01, 2005 6:44 am

Norway is very popular at the moment. I had lengthy contacts with 2nd through 4th generation Norwegians in a city where I worked for a couple of years, Fargo/Moorhead. The people were friendly, and intensely interested in the arts from a "let's do it" instead of simply "let's view it" perspective. I know little of their current politics, but I would look more carefully into the original culture if my wife and I had the funds to seriously look overseas and move.

Given the money, I admit I'd leave the US in a second. Don't tell anybody, but these Americans are weird.

Chimaera182 · Post by **Chimaera182** » Sat Oct 01, 2005 6:57 am

[QUOTE=fable]Given the money, I admit I'd leave the US in a second. Don't tell anybody, but these Americans are weird.

[/QUOTE]
Take me with you.

I have a friend in Norway; I think he wants to come to the States. Whenever I talk to someone from another country who says they want to come to the U.S., the first question I always want to--and invariably do--ask is, "Why?"

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Oct 01, 2005 7:11 am

[QUOTE=Chimaera182]Take me with you.

I have a friend in Norway; I think he wants to come to the States. Whenever I talk to someone from another country who says they want to come to the U.S., the first question I always want to--and invariably do--ask is, "Why?"[/QUOTE]

Because the grass is always greener on the uninvestigated side of the fence. Except that I have a lifetime of examples to show me that this side of it is turning into a strip mine.

Ravager · Post by **Ravager** » Sat Oct 01, 2005 7:13 am

Out of curiosity, who would prefer to remain in their own country?

Personally I don't think I know enough about other countries to make a really informed decision on such a thing. But I certainly know there are countries worse than the UK out there.

ch85us2001 · Post by **ch85us2001** » Sat Oct 01, 2005 7:27 am

I like myself right where Im at in the good ol USofA! I mean we have the most and fastest drag racing on the planet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Chimaera182 · Post by **Chimaera182** » Sat Oct 01, 2005 10:08 am

[QUOTE=fable]Because the grass is always greener on the uninvestigated side of the fence. Except that I have a lifetime of examples to show me that this side of it is turning into a strip mine.

[/QUOTE]
lol true. That's always the case, isn't it? The grass is greener so it must be better. Never mind that that grass might be astroturf.

I probably wouldn't mind staying in the US, but I want out of Florida. Why? It's freaking hot. That and we have such lovely luck with tropical systems. I'd move somewhere north of here but not so far north that I trade hurricanes for blizzards.

Hill-Shatar · Post by **Hill-Shatar** » Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:31 am

[QUOTE=Chim]lol true. That's always the case, isn't it? The grass is greener so it must be better. Never mind that that grass might be astroturf. [/QUOTE]

*snort*

Only in the land of Golden opportunity, Chim.

[QUOTE=Fable]Because the grass is always greener on the uninvestigated side of the fence. Except that I have a lifetime of examples to show me that this side of it is turning into a strip mine. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Hill]Can't really get over it, all people think that the grass is greener on the other side, somewhere. [/QUOTE]

Shhhhh... this analogy is getting out of hand... how descriptive of the grass on the other side can you get?

Oh, right, sorry, Fable, forgot who I was talking to. The only one on the board capable of turning grass into a demographic.

To tell you the truth... I wouldn't mind living in another part of Canada. Maybe more to the East, or the less populated cities in the west... so, yes, Rav, some of us do want to stay in our countries. I think this is more about where we'd rather flee...

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Sat Oct 01, 2005 12:54 pm

[QUOTE=hill1]Shhhhh... this analogy is getting out of hand... how descriptive of the grass on the other side can you get?

Oh, right, sorry, Fable, forgot who I was talking to. The only one on the board capable of turning grass into a demographic.

[/QUOTE]

I wish we could get him to do something a bit more useful, like turning water into wine, for example

Back on topic, to answer Rav's question somewhat. In truth, I don't really have much to complain about; I live in a spectacularly beautiful area of Canada. A decent-sized city is only 20 minutes down the road, and I'm surrounded by water and green hills/mountains. In terms of physical attractiveness, it is pretty hard to beat

But.. Canada is so damned bland as a whole... and Vancouver still strongly reflects its Presbytarian roots in many ways... Contrary to the images of "West Coast Easy," it is actually quite staid and uptight. Plus, I detest all the rain in the winter.... I'd *much* rather have cold, ice and snow. And no, it isn't a case of the "grass being greener," I have spent a lot of time living in places where winters feel like *real* winters.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sat Oct 01, 2005 1:53 pm

[QUOTE=Ravager]Out of curiosity, who would prefer to remain in their own country?

[/QUOTE]

I would. Since I have already made the choice to devout my life to science, I am dependend on high technology societies. I could do the job I do now in Sweden, Finland, Japan, the US or Canada. (The UK PET lab - which was perhaps the best in the world, perhaps even better than ours - was destroyed for political reasons so it's no longer an option). Of those countries, it's really only Sweden, Japan and the US who has top quality research in all fields my work is associated with. And as I posted above, whereas I strongly dislike the anti-intellectual climate and the conformism in Sweden, I find it a less important aspect that the social segregation and some other aspects of socity I see in Japan and the US. (However, maybe I will not have a choice in the future, big things are happening in my field).

Hill-Shatar · Post by **Hill-Shatar** » Sat Oct 01, 2005 2:08 pm

Unfortunately for me, unlike CE, I do not currently live in a city based around medical research, as London was. Mostly I am out here as a favour. In a year or two, I hope to be back in London myself...

My work is an largely international effort. My work overlaps with dozens of different studies and fields around the world. I am totally dependant on a group of biologists in Australia and a Genetisist currently residing in South Korea, and them on me, for results to assorted experiements and tests.

I could actual live almost anywhere with the proper eqipement and conditions. People who have come through the labs I have worked in have gone off for a vareity of places around the world. I even have a friend who was in Iraq, until her parents convinced her to move out in 2002. Unfortunately, the lab their was demolished, all research not already sent or without backups in other countries lost. A lot of cell samples there were destroyed as well... many people were peeved when they could not get there items out in time.

If I had to move, it truly does not matter that my life is as well devoted to science. Almost everywhere around the world is a lab I easily qualify to work in. Therefore I am lucky that I can chose to go where I want to live, instead of where I have to.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Oct 01, 2005 2:11 pm

[QUOTE=dragon wench]I wish we could get him to do something a bit more useful, like turning water into wine, for example

[/quote]

Sorry, but I don't do imitations. I could try to turn wine into tandoori, however.

But.. Canada is so damned bland as a whole... and Vancouver still strongly reflects its Presbytarian roots in many ways... Contrary to the images of "West Coast Easy," it is actually quite staid and uptight. Plus, I detest all the rain in the winter.... I'd *much* rather have cold, ice and snow. And no, it isn't a case of the "grass being greener," I have spent a lot of time living in places where winters feel like *real* winters.

I'm trying to convince my wife to consider a vacation in Canada, somewhere. I don't like the heat, and the Outer Banks (which we leave, tomorrow) is boring beyond description. Sure, it's nice to jump waves (our new eXtreme sport) or hottub, or walk the shores at night, but I prefer mental and physical activity involving discovering new things. If I want to assume a lotus position and meditate, I can do that anywhere; I don't need a beach. But I hear Canada has interesting museums, plenty of hiking territory, lots of fine architecture, and if you want to get insulted by non-English speakers, you can get that there, too, in Quebec.