God told him to do it

[HighLordDave]

Dubya claims that God told him to invade Iraq

That makes him one scary SOB. What else has God told him to do? Because you know that Dubya and his fundy Christian friends will do it. A divine mandate instantly justifies any action because he has been ordered by the universe's supreme being to do it.

Remember that abortion clinic bombers and the guys who hijacked 4 airplanes on 11 September 2001 also believe(d) that they have been instructed and blessed by God to take the lives of others.

And to think that we elected this guy once (the Supreme Court put him in the other time).

[fable]

LOL! Shrub's been throwing around just abouit every reason possible to explain why his administration invaded Iraq since he first did so. None of them have the slightest plausibilty. Does anybody remember this highlight?

"He...he tried to kill my daddy."

That's Bush in 2002, explaining in a radio interview why he wanted to topple Hussain.

And then there's Dic! Cheney's famous television encounter with the press:

How do we know Iraq had arms of mass destruction? I'll tell you how we know. Because he had arms of mass destruction!!"

Bravo to Cheney! The man who's always in control shows emotion before the cameras because he'll look exasperated at the press, and that's always a good message to send to the public who are still being told the press is controlled by liberal cartels 24 years after they were all sold to international conservative corporations run by the likes of Rupert Murdock.

As for Dubya's religiosity, the minister of the church he supposedly belongs to has tartly remarked in the past that the president almost never shows up in the church. There's no more evidence that Shrub is an evangelical Christian than there is that he's a true conservative Republican; quite the contrary. Like his predecessor Lyndon Johnson, he'll do and say anything to keep his constituency happy, and lie throw his pointed teeth.

Dubya invaded Iraq for the reasons already stated in the PNAC Manifesto, published before he took office. It's a document whose signatories are (or were) nearly all high-ranking members in his administration. Anybody who wants to know the real reasons for that invasion just needs to read the thing. It's all there.

[C Elegans]

It's not a surprising statement considering that already 2 years ago he stated in a TV interview (well, at least it was broadcasted in Sweden 2 years ago) that he felt god had called him to lead the US. According to this book, he is not only talking but also practising, but I have no idea how reliable that book is:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,1 ... 26,00.html

The Shrub is not a member of PNAC as far as I know - is it possible that he himself could have one agenda or one motive, and the PNAC people around him a different agenda or different motive, but the coincide in how to achieve their respective goals? I have often wondered if Shrub is really a religious fanatic, or it he is just playing it for the galleries.

[dragon wench]

[QUOTE=C Elegans] I have often wondered if Shrub is really a religious fanatic, or it he is just playing it for the galleries.[/QUOTE]

My SO and I have wondered that as well... Not to mention that we have questioned if he is as dumb as he frequently appears to be.

Once we read an article about Shrub in a running magazine, and he was speaking quite articulately about the mind/body connection inherent to running. In other words, he really did not sound like the brainless, folksy bumpkin that he and the media often portray.
It could well be that he is attempting to take a page out of Reagan's book, by putting on a bumbling, yet endearing (to some), "guy next door," kind of act.

Regarding the religious fanaticism... Whether or not he is an actual zealot at a personal level, there is little doubt he is playing to fundamentalist sympathies, as many people here at GB have already stated at various times in the past.

It's hard to tell precisely where reality and manufactured image intersect though.

[Fiona]

I found this, which seems to address the question of Mr Bush's intelligence directly. I thought it was funny.

http://irregulartimes.com/stupid2.html

[CM]

I am totally serious about this question, don't they lock up people who say God talks to them? I mean this is really scary stuff.

So God talks to Bush and OBL....hmm...ok who do you think has the devil talking to them and acting like God?

[Denethorn]

Shrub, what exactly are the origins of this nick name?

[CM]

Its another english word for bush, but it is said to insult bush as they are twisting his original name. I don't know of any other connations.

[Hill-Shatar]

<edit: nevermind, PM me, Denethorn>

I already recieved forty emails about bush talking to god, ect. Nice link.

[ik911]

Perhaps Bush will be sanctified in 100 years, just like the first fried-air-whisperer that comes into mind: Joan of Arc.

[fable]

[QUOTE=C Elegans]The Shrub is not a member of PNAC as far as I know - is it possible that he himself could have one agenda or one motive, and the PNAC people around him a different agenda or different motive, but the coincide in how to achieve their respective goals?[/quote]

If you look at the members of PNAC (Project for a New American Century), CE, it reads like the top controlling group of the Bush administration: Scooter Libby (Cheney's Chief of Staff), Stephen Cambone (Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence), Paul Wolfowitz (former Deputy Defense Secretary), Abram Shulsky (Director, Office of Special Plans, for Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld), David Epstein, Elliott Abrams (Deputy National Security Advisor, Special Assistant to the President), William Bennett (Member, National Security Advisory Council), Jeb Bush, Dic! Cheney (Vice President), Richard Perle (Pentagon Advisor), Donald Rumsfeld (Secretary of Defense), Francis Fukuyama (President's Council on Bioethics), Peter Rodman (Assistant Secretary of Defense), etc. In short, Bush didn't simply take on a few PNAC members in among a large group representing other interests and viewpoints. His inner circle focusing on international and national affairs are drawn from PNAC signatories--not to mention, his brother. In short, Bush is a fellow traveler. And if you read the PNAC Statement of Principles, as well as their 1997 papers on Iraq, you're reading a blueprint for the Bush administration's approach to government.

Shrub, what exactly are the origins of this nick name?

A shrub is a small, innocuous bush. Bush is a much lessened version of his father; hence, Shrub.

[Chimaera182]

Well, what I'm about to say should probably go after my CM quote, but I had planned on saying this before I saw CM had already said it. But we lock away people who say God talks to them. Why is Bush still president now that he is almost certifiably insane? It's like I told my friend: Jesus probably is back already and is probably locked away in a mental war because he told people he was Jesus.

[QUOTE=CM]I am totally serious about this question, don't they lock up people who say God talks to them? I mean this is really scary stuff.

So God talks to Bush and OBL....hmm...ok who do you think has the devil talking to them and acting like God?[/QUOTE]
Yes, CM, we do lock away people who say that. Instead, we have one of those crazies living in the White House. It just fills you with supreme confidence, knowing that the supreme power of the universe is talking to the supreme ruler of the US, doesn't it? And you know, even though I'm an atheist, I sometimes think about religion, and I wonder whether "God" is actually Satan in the manner which you speak.

[QUOTE=dragon wench]My SO and I have wondered that as well... Not to mention that we have questioned if he is as dumb as he frequently appears to be.

Once we read an article about Shrub in a running magazine, and he was speaking quite articulately about the mind/body connection inherent to running. In other words, he really did not sound like the brainless, folksy bumpkin that he and the media often portray.
It could well be that he is attempting to take a page out of Reagan's book, by putting on a bumbling, yet endearing (to some), "guy next door," kind of act.[/QUOTE]
I've often wondered, too (especially lately for some reason), whether Bush's stupid image is manufactured or true. On the one hand, there's the speech he gave at a pro-life gathering where he said that all life comes from feces; on the other, there's your running magazine article. In all fairness, it's possible to be a complete moron in some areas but actually be knowledgable in others. Maybe he does have a mind when it comes to health and the link between the body and the mind, but he's a complete dolt when it comes to being president. If some of the smartest people in the world can do stupid things, obviously some of the dumbest people in the world can do smart things. So, now, is Bush someone dumb who said something smart, or is he someone smart who said something dumb? Ooooh.

[C Elegans]

[QUOTE=CM]I am totally serious about this question, don't they lock up people who say God talks to them? I mean this is really scary stuff.

So God talks to Bush and OBL....hmm...ok who do you think has the devil talking to them and acting like God?[/QUOTE]

Seriously Fas, it is complicated to assess the quality of religious experiences people report, since the critera for psychiatric disorder also include one paragraph that says delusions or hallucinations must be unusual, clearly out of the individual's cultural context, in order to be classified as pathology. Furthermore, one must assess the whole clinical picture and investigate the entire belief system of the individual, not only single parts of it. This means that in a in most Western societies, believing in a god is not a pathological delusion, but actually claiming to hear god speak to you and give you commands would likely be classified as imperative auditative hallucinations from a psychiatric viewpoint.

So, Shrub and OBL both think god is talking to them? I wonder what is worse - if the continue to be enemies, or if they teamed up against the rest of the world...

[fable]

I've often wondered, too (especially lately for some reason), whether Bush's stupid image is manufactured or true.

You don't graduate with an MBA from Harvard, become governor over a bunch of Texan politicians, or rise to the top of the Republican party, by being a fool. Underestimating Bush because you don't like him is in turn foolish. Although he's on the wane now, he has been the #1 Powerbroker in the US since 2000, and has cleverly, meticulously shifted US policy on a range of domestic and international fronts--in some cases, irretrievably. He knows exactly what he's doing.

[Fiona]

Not convinced

[Chimaera182]

[QUOTE=fable]I've often wondered, too (especially lately for some reason), whether Bush's stupid image is manufactured or true.

You don't graduate with an MBA from Harvard, become governor over a bunch of Texan politicians, or rise to the top of the Republican party, by being a fool.[/QUOTE]
No; they pay for it.

[C Elegans]

If you look at the members of PNAC (Project for a New American Century), CE, it reads like the top controlling group of the Bush administration:
<snip>
In short, Bush didn't simply take on a few PNAC members in among a large group representing other interests and viewpoints. His inner circle focusing on international and national affairs are drawn from PNAC signatories--not to mention, his brother. In short, Bush is a fellow traveler. And if you read the PNAC Statement of Principles, as well as their 1997 papers on Iraq, you're reading a blueprint for the Bush administration's approach to government.

Yes, I remember reading the PNAC statement regarding Iraq long ago here at the board when you and Sojourner I think it was, linked to it. It was a chilling reading, and yes, I remember it was the blueprint of what actually happened. However, I would think there is also the possibility (at least I've read it in newspaper articles) that Bush is more like a figure head, controlled by the other members of the administration?

You don't graduate with an MBA from Harvard, become governor over a bunch of Texan politicians, or rise to the top of the Republican party, by being a fool.

I remember Vondondu, who lives in Texas, described that Bush spoke in a significantly different way, not at all as clumsy, when he was governor of Texas than he does now. So do you think he is just playing "stupid", and if so, why? If he is a well thought out fake, what does he achive by playing stupid and what does he achieve by playing fundamentalist christian?

[Hill-Shatar]

The manipulative mask he has woven his intricate by design. Sooner of later it will tighten too much, and become to intricate, and he will misweave one of the strings. It will become detatched. Lets hope that sooner or later, that mask recives a hefty pull from someone.

He isn't a fool. He uses the image he is portayed as well... matter of factly. Apparently he uses his southern charm (also known as mispronouncing key words, as opposed to my incapability to spell them )to influence votes,ect. Also a somewhat bumbling attitude and an amazing amount of inflated patriotism, even to some extent a seemingly oblivious attitude towards other members of the international community.

I try to keep my nose out of politics, particularily American ones. They seem to be a constant source of my headaches.

@ Chim:

EDIT- CE pretty much made the point before I posted.

[fable]

[QUOTE=C Elegans]Yes, I remember reading the PNAC statement regarding Iraq long ago here at the board when you and Sojourner I think it was, linked to it. It was a chilling reading, and yes, I remember it was the blueprint of what actually happened. However, I would think there is also the possibility (at least I've read it in newspaper articles) that Bush is more like a figure head, controlled by the other members of the administration?[/quote]

Insiders who have left the administration without exception speak of a very different Bush, a quiet-spoken dictator who rules with an iron fist, insists on absolute loyalty, and regards any other power center co-equal to his (in this case, the Congress, while governor, the Texas Congress) as an enemy who must be divided and conquered. They paint a picture of a shrewd man who uses every weapon at his disposal to get what he wants, and certainly realizes the value of publically playing a goofball if it makes him look like "just another guy."

I remember Vondondu, who lives in Texas, described that Bush spoke in a significantly different way, not at all as clumsy, when he was governor of Texas than he does now. So do you think he is just playing "stupid", and if so, why? If he is a well thought out fake, what does he achive by playing stupid and what does he achieve by playing fundamentalist christian?

How does the rural American, who represents roughly 50% of the populace, differ from the urban American? Studies have shown that overall (however much individuals may vary) they are less educated, less skeptical, make value judgments based on emotional impulse, and religiously evangelical. To drive through the American South is to see evangelical church after evangelical church, with names like Assembly of the Annointed to God the Savior, and Brethren Church of Christ the Redeemer at the End of Time (and no, I'm not exaggerating--we saw these coming back from North Carolina's rural eastern section).

Back in the 1960s, the liberal end of the Democratic Party scored a huge victory, pulling the party to the left and winning countless elections, by mobilizng a hitherto neglected voting bloc: the blacks. During the 1990s, the neo-cons did the same to the Republican Party (though arguably not pulling it to the right, since many neo-con policies are *not* conservative), by mobilizing another neglected voting bloc: the rural midwest, west and south. The liberal Democrats used a huge infrastructure of local, state and national cells to achieve their goals. The neo-cons had an infrastructure in place: the evangelical churches. They formed a marriage of convenience with the far-right religious set. The former thus became the mouthpiece for the latter, garnering votes that swept them into power. The latter provided the organizational structure, and the fervor.

Even today, with all that money, energy and zealous belief, the neo-cons and the Republican Party are too close to an edge of victory (as the last two presidential elections clearly showed) to win without the Religious Far-Right. So Bush, as a trusted leader of his party who needs Congressional votes for many of his ideas, continues to woo that portion of the electorate. He doesn't do it any longer for his own election, but to maintain the facade that Republicans are the people you can trust in power because they believe.

[fable]

[QUOTE=Chimaera182]No; they pay for it. [/QUOTE]

I've no idea what you mean, mate. How does that relate to what you were supposedly answering of mine?