What's the best Tank build?

[krunchyfrogg]

What's the best build you can think of for a great tank who can both deal damage and soak it up?

[ammama]

i think druids are amazing at this, but u have to wait for their shape change ability. You can lower their strength, constitution and dexterity to nothing and put all your points in wisdom charisma and intelligence. When they shape shift the other stats change. You can have a pumped up tank with strength 30+ with a dire bear which does some serious damage. for feats or other abilities could add barbarian (raging bear), fighter (lotsa feats) or other classes

[myrophine]

Long Post - read at own risk

The problem with Druids is the late game AC. They get hit too much and the HP total just drops. They are very good, mind you, in that they can summon several good tanks then leap into battle themselves. But I like them as a slasher or flanker more than a tank. A druid with Mirror image and stoneskin on them is a different story. Then they don't need AC (in the short run). And a druid with the weidu mods is absolutely awsome.

Note: I haven't played HOF (see Evergari/UPP,Mikkonen?/JUPP,Silverdragon - sticky on this board - if you do play that mode)

Other Tanks:

Barbarian tank: is awsome especially when you get greater rage (i keep them pure untill they get that). Great at dealing damage and taking the pain in return. However they have a problem with mind affecting spells and can't be mixed with Pal or Monk to fix. Dwarf is good for the bonus vs. spells.

I'm making a drow barbarianXmage5. That way i get SR and +2 mind affecting. I lose some HP from low con and mage levels but have high stats in general and mages excellent low level buffer spells: MI, blur, blink. Also I get 5 levels of mage 'mental' saves (i forget the correct word...not reflex/fortitude).

Spellsword tank: like my drow barbwizard above: they use buffs to prevent damage rather than have high HP. Of course they also want high AC and as many HP as possible. Many kinds like this: warrior/caster, bard, maybe even cleric of mask counts: MI as domain spell. For some reason I think you need arcane spells to be a spellsword maybe because those low level defensive buffs are so good? note: some of them are harder to build and should be built in steps with level squatting (ie whats the point of having 1 level of wizard? take 5 at once and get all the goodies or 3 at least to get MI).

Paladin tank: some mix of paladin/fighter/even cleric. Maybe even mage in HOF for MI,blur,blink. Good saves. Weapon specialization. Immunities. Holy Avenger. Cera Sumat and other 1 handed swords don't hit hard compared to the barbarian with a great axe. I think more defensive than the barbarian. But that could be good as the only thing saving you when a barbarian gets charmed is its dumb AI -imagine if he charged the character with lowest HP then retreated to drink pots behind enemy lines after each kill?

Other tank: theres other kinds I'm sure. Druid, cleric (if right stats) but why not have them casting horridly deadly and disabling spells from the safety of the back? Let the summons take the pain and use your main tank(s) as slashers/emergency tank (ie when they dump you in an encounter sans summons). Ranger? maybe just for fun ; try barb/druid instead. Rogue mix? better as a slasher.

Final note: tanks and summons get MUCH more powerful when you have hope, stoneskin (too precious to spend on summons usually), and mass haste. Not to mention the clerics awesome spells that tip the tide of the battle like magic circle vs evil, prayer, and recital. Bards: War chant of Sith anyone? Thats a good reason NOT to have too many tanks and to have casters supporting the ones you do (plus summons) with buffer spells.

Consider this: a sorceror can easily plop out 1 summon a round (undead or shades). If a barbarian X or whatever build were dumb enough (enemy AI?) to just fight the summons (and not disrupt/kill the source) then a sorceror is actually the most powerful tank!

myrophine

[krunchyfrogg]

[QUOTE=myrophine]
I'm making a drow barbarianXmage5. That way i get SR and +2 mind affecting. I lose some HP from low con and mage levels but have high stats in general and mages excellent low level buffer spells: MI, blur, blink. Also I get 5 levels of mage 'mental' saves (i forget the correct word...not reflex/fortitude).[/quote]"will"


[QUOTE=myrophine]Spellsword tank: like my drow barbwizard above: they use buffs to prevent damage rather than have high HP. Of course they also want high AC and as many HP as possible. Many kinds like this: warrior/caster, bard, maybe even cleric of mask counts: MI as domain spell. For some reason I think you need arcane spells to be a spellsword maybe because those low level defensive buffs are so good? note: some of them are harder to build and should be built in steps with level squatting (ie whats the point of having 1 level of wizard? take 5 at once and get all the goodies or 3 at least to get MI).[/quote]Yeah, i had considered a bard/barbarian, but i am not sure how good a tank he would really be.

[myrophine]

I think barb/bard is a good idea (once you get lingering song or else you can't sing + fight). Make sure to take enough bard to get tymora's melody b/c thats really good. MI is also really good. War chant of sith is good but only works during battle.

The downside is it takes too long (wait for HOF) to get the greater rage and at that point (HOF) the enemies are too many HP to melee effectively (from what I understand).

So assuming 20 levels in normal (that means level squatting or less than 6 chars):

bard1 (to start with lingering song) -> bard1barb1 (to get rage and weapons/HP) -> bard5barb1 (tymora's melody and MI) ->barb5barb2 (uncanny dodge)

Now decide if your going for the greater rage or something else. I wouldn't mix in another caster if your playing normal only as it would be better to get a higher level bard (caster). But maybe mix in rogue and/or fighter for abilities and/or feats.

Bard 16 - 20 is quite powerful (1,2,3,4,6 level spells are good - I don't like 5th but maybe someone uitilizes better than me?). But then the 7th level spells are bad so levels 21 - 25? don't add much I don't think (no songs and bad spells). The 8th level spells are really good but you must have practically all your levels as bard. I'd rather have a sorceror with more spells and lose the songs. And as a sorceror I'd get those spells in normal instead of HOF!

myrophine

PS - shades (6th level bard spell) make good tanks
PPS - tymora's melody is good with improved critical and axes

[Aerich]

I'm not totally finished the game yet, but I have two very effective tanks with different foci. The deep gnome monk is the damage soak; it buffs up to about 45 AC plus stoneskin and mirror image, blur, etc, which is plenty for a normal, non-HoF party. The damage causer is a Fighter[1]/Stormlord of Talos[14] that generally fires out a spell or two then leaps into melee, placing itself in an advantageous tactical position (e.g. staying at the edge to minimize being targeted or going directly after the most damaging enemy). The Stormlord did 95% of Battle Squares.

To my mind, an awesome tank has to have above average AC, good saves, and spell resistance. The monk, particularly the DG monk, is fantastic at all three of these categories. Monks also get evasion (a great ability for a tank that will take the brunt of enemy spells), immunity to poison, and class-based spell resistance at lvl 13 that stacks with the race-based spell resistance of a DG or drow. A monk is also decent at dealing out the damage, although Str is typically a lesser priority than Dex or Con for most monk users. The secret to having a monk do good damage is spell buffs (Champion's Strength especially) and use of special abilities such as stunning attack (stunned enemies are hit automatically) and fast movement (to take out the weakest enemy or engage the strongest). A DG monk can be tough to start out because it is 3 levels behind, but sticking with it will give you a fantastic tank.

The other great tank builds for avoiding damage are ones that combine warriors with spellcaster classes. Wizards or sorcs have some dynamite caster-only spells (Tensor's Transformation, Trollish Fortitude, Mirror Image, Blink, Sunfire, Malavon's Rage) as do clerics (Draw Upon Holy Might, Divine Shell, Holy Power). A properly buffed wiz/sorc/cleric with some fighter or paladin classes can take less damage and deal more than a fighter/barbarian, but is higher maintenance and cannot tank as well in the early going.

In reality, IWD2 has many fights where an inadequately supported tank or two can get swamped, which is why I prefer AC over total damage output. I've had fights (the hook horror caves comes to mind) where the DG monk occupied literally a dozen enemy fighters at a time, taking only an occasional critical hit, while the remainder of my party focused magical, ranged, and melee attacks on each enemy in succession to bring them down. A "conventional" damage-dealing tank such as a fighter/barb would have been a pile of blood and guts about 3 rounds into that fight if I tried the same strategy.

[myrophine]

the kamikaze tank

What about the kamikaze tank?

its a dwarf with 20 con and 1 dexterity wearing any cursed items that ruin the AC. 7 levels of specialist wizard to cast both fireshields, death armor, and lots of mirror images. Pump constitution and take every other level as barbarian. Buff with stoneskin and payback shields then waltz into melee goons. Continually cast Mirror image.

Drink invis pot when almost dead.

myrophine

[Raven_Song]

i think druids are amazing at this, but u have to wait for their shape change ability. You can lower their strength, constitution and dexterity to nothing and put all your points in wisdom charisma and intelligence.

I really wouldn't recommend it, as you are unlikely to have this character shapeshifted all of the time. Don't forget DEX and CON affect saves so when in human form this character would be vulnerable. Besides high INT and CHA are really wasted on druids.

cleric (if right stats) but why not have them casting horridly deadly and disabling spells from the safety of the back?

Because you would be really underusing them, especially the more melee orientated domains. Besides cleric have rather limited access to horridly deadly spells and for disabling I've always found wizards to be much more potent.

Ranger? maybe just for fun

What's fun about dying constantly - seriously rangers make very good Sniper/Scout/Mage-Killers especially with the appropriate mix-in classes

I think barb/bard is a good idea (once you get lingering song or else you can't sing + fight). Make sure to take enough bard to get tymora's melody b/c thats really good. MI is also really good. War chant of sith is good but only works during battle.

Wouldn't this build require highish ability scores in too many stats STR, DEX, CON, INT, CHA?

[Slightly off-topic]

I'm always surprised by the high number of ex-Underdark denizens that always seem to find their way to Targos. And all those Deep Gnome monks- I'd thought they'd be far too busy mining and avoiding enslavement to spend so much time meditating. :mischief:

[myrophine]

@Raven_Song

On druid ability scores: agreed

On cleric: Yeah I agree you can use a cleric on the front with right stats. My tendency though is to use a lot of summons and have the guy that raises the dead (both summons and dead party members) tucked away safe and sound. With the 'horridly deadly' comment I used a bad adjective(s). What I mean is that they have good support spells: prayer, recital, summons.

On Ranger/sniper/scout guys: Yeah thats a good role for a ranger. If I were playing the game the first time and didn't know what to expect I'd take one along!

On bard/barb: I think stats are a problem to all bards (masters of none and all that). Bard x (without mixing barbarian in) also needs all of those abilities (at least on his wish list). Bard5 mixin only needs 12 charisma, but then again straight barb only needs 3 charisma. I think most warrior bards take fighter levels (rather than barbarian) as the bard could use some extra feats more than they need rage/faster movement.

myrophine

[Aerich]

Despite the intriguing potential of a barb/bard, I can't believe that it would ever make a "best tank". Not enough spells or spell selection, AC would be probably too low, and the bard doesn't have anything other than minor spell access (ok, and the songs bug) that really lends itself to adding power and versatility to a tank class.

I have to vote for a monk, a cleric (with mix-in classes later, preferably fighter and wizard), or a high-level wizard (with mix-in fighter, probably rogue) as being the classes with the best potential late game tank ability due to AC and magic or ki-related special abilities, but you can't go wrong with warrior classes for sheer damage output. A fighter, barbarian, or paladin, or some combination of the three, is definitely lower maintenance but requires more healing. A warrior, non-ranger class will also be able to tank from the start, which would be a challenge for any of the above except a cleric.

When in doubt, summons make great tanks, your characters take no damage at all.

[Dedigan]

The best tank that I had ever used was a fighter(4)/bard(x).

With spells like haste, he fights as well as a fighter class. With spells like Mirror image and blur (and stone skin cast by a mage), armor class becomes a non-issue until HoF mode. By then, the bard has enough other buff spells to make him useful even in the front lines. And if things get too hairy, the bard has summons as well to share the damage-soaking load.

The other best tank I've used was a deep gnome priest of bane with a monk and a rogue level. Nothing came close to doing damage to him except for his own party members through all of heart of fury. The problem with him was the experience penalty once you add in the monk level. The rogue level can wait until the end, you just need it for one skill and an item, and you don't find the item until after you're level 30. (I even had a reasonable rp-reason for the priest of bane/monk combination) The same character as a female drow may be more flexible.