I heard today that surgeons in France have carried out an operation which has not been done before. A woman had been attacked by a dog and her face was so badly disfigured that she had difficulty in eating and in talking. The surgeons have taken a triangular part of a brain-dead woman's face and have grafted it on to the patient.
It is clear that this is very skillful and I do not really want to discuss the science involved in it. What intrigued me was the fact that assuming the surgery is successful this woman will have someone else's face for the rest of her life. I imagine most of us would say that the functional benefits far outweigh any psychological implications. But I did wonder what effect this would have. It is not the same as a liver transplant, for example, in that one's sense of who you are is not really tied up with internal organs. But I do think one's face is very important to identity.
I also wondered if we would consider grafting woman's face on to a man or vice versa, or would that be a step too far? If it were possible, what about an animal if it would give the same functional benefits?
Does anyone have any thoughts about this. Would one and one's family and frends just get used to the new face?
New faces
[QUOTE=Fiona]
I also wondered if we would consider grafting woman's face on to a man or vice versa, or would that be a step too far? If it were possible, what about an animal if it would give the same functional benefits?
Does anyone have any thoughts about this. Would one and one's family and frends just get used to the new face?[/QUOTE]
They probably try to get someone whos face looks like them, or maybe they take the new face and mold it and model it too look like the old face, im not sure. Personally i think they would be able to create a synthetic tissue by now that they could engineer to become almost exactly like the old face. About identity, yeah my face is kinda who i am and a new one would take getting used to, but look at Michael Jackson and Cher (no im not making a joke,) they have had so much surgery down on their face that they are ( atleast MJ) are hardly recognizable to their old selves any more. What im wondering is if this new synthetic face is ever created, will celebrities get them to truly have the perfectly artificial awesome bod?
and about the animal face, i guess its possible, but the shedding would be terrible
I also wondered if we would consider grafting woman's face on to a man or vice versa, or would that be a step too far? If it were possible, what about an animal if it would give the same functional benefits?
Does anyone have any thoughts about this. Would one and one's family and frends just get used to the new face?[/QUOTE]
They probably try to get someone whos face looks like them, or maybe they take the new face and mold it and model it too look like the old face, im not sure. Personally i think they would be able to create a synthetic tissue by now that they could engineer to become almost exactly like the old face. About identity, yeah my face is kinda who i am and a new one would take getting used to, but look at Michael Jackson and Cher (no im not making a joke,) they have had so much surgery down on their face that they are ( atleast MJ) are hardly recognizable to their old selves any more. What im wondering is if this new synthetic face is ever created, will celebrities get them to truly have the perfectly artificial awesome bod?
and about the animal face, i guess its possible, but the shedding would be terrible
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[QUOTE=Xandax]Color me purple and call me barney.[/QUOTE]
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:speech: Phreddie thats the first thing Ive been able to read without guessing what you meant ...sorry fiona if I spammed
...sorry fiona if I spammed Wondering how vampires live the life they live.....
seriously I dont know how they sleep during the day, I have a twitch everytime I hear a loud sound as I slumber, everytime ....Im just waiting to pounce on the poor mortal who creates a sound while I sleep in during the day. /rant
seriously I dont know how they sleep during the day, I have a twitch everytime I hear a loud sound as I slumber, everytime ....Im just waiting to pounce on the poor mortal who creates a sound while I sleep in during the day. /rant
I think that people tend to think of themselves as permanent rather than fluxional beings. That is why there can be conflicts when something we identify with changes.
Of course such an accident and surgical procedure are very drastic examples but nonetheless I think that a portion of the conflict comes from attachment to an ideal of a permanent self (of course I'm sure there are other practical problems with having facial surgery...risk of complications, response of others to your appearance...that are unrelated to self identification)
Seeing as I believe that we are fluxional beings I find it curious and sad that these other beliefs and attachments to a permanent self are 'hard wired' (culturally? naturally?) into us.
I think it raises many questions.
myrophine
Of course such an accident and surgical procedure are very drastic examples but nonetheless I think that a portion of the conflict comes from attachment to an ideal of a permanent self (of course I'm sure there are other practical problems with having facial surgery...risk of complications, response of others to your appearance...that are unrelated to self identification)
Seeing as I believe that we are fluxional beings I find it curious and sad that these other beliefs and attachments to a permanent self are 'hard wired' (culturally? naturally?) into us.
I think it raises many questions.
myrophine
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Chimaera182
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I don't see why not. After all, people can already pay to have their noses restructured, their cheekbones resurfaced, their eyebrows to be lowered, their chins to be redone. After all the kinds of cosmetic surgery one can apply for, total face transplants seems to be a natural next-step. No one cares about their identity: they want the identities of other people, like the people in the adverts. Such is the way of progress.
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Michael Bay: "I don't understand the difference."
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[QUOTE=Fiona]It is not the same as a liver transplant, for example, in that one's sense of who you are is not really tied up with internal organs. But I do think one's face is very important to identity. [/QUOTE]
[quote="Phreddie]
They probably try to get someone whos face looks like them"]
When you get a face transplant, as a number of patients are waiting for in France and the US right now, it is not like you will look like the person who donated the face skin. You will look more like yourself before your injury, because it is the bone structure and underlying tissue that forms the look of the face. Depending on your type of injury -tissue, cartilage and bone may have been disrupted due to the injury that also damaged the skin - you may look more or less different from before your injury. If they take all the underlying tissue from the donour, you will look neither like you did before, or like the donour.
However, of course you will look very different from your injured state, providing the transplant is successful. We should remember though that patients who are up for face transplantation have already undergone a major, damaging change of face, a change that transformed then from normal looking people to something others shy away from. I would certainly think it's a much bigger adaptation for both the patient and the people around him/her to get used to the damaged, injured face then to get used to new face that looks quite a bit like the person did before. Of course there will be adjustment and identity issues, but hardly worse than after the injury.
This is a link to Swedish newspaper, sorry for that but it shows pictures of a woman waiting for a face transplant in the US.
http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/nyheter/s ... 97,00.html
Regarding the gender perspective, men have beard growth in the face, I'm not sure what will happen to that in a female who does not have the same hormonal ratios. Men also have larger pores in the skin than women. Of course, when you do any kind of skin transplant from another person, the skin you receive will not look exactly the same as your own, it may have a different structure and different hue. Same think with taking skins from other species if this was possible. The skin will have a different structure and hue than your own skin - but on the other hand, not by far as different as the burnt scar tissue your face consist of now (most people interested in face transplants are burning injury victims).
However, if the patient is aware and informed about these skin differences, I think the psychological aspects are minor compared to the injury they already gone through, and also, minor compared to the issue that is my concern - the safety of the procedure. It's only about a 50% chance of success, and I won't go into medical details since Fiona requested no science, but the side effects of the immunosuppresive drugs you have to take before and after the transplant, are very severe.
[quote="Phreddie]
They probably try to get someone whos face looks like them"]
When you get a face transplant, as a number of patients are waiting for in France and the US right now, it is not like you will look like the person who donated the face skin. You will look more like yourself before your injury, because it is the bone structure and underlying tissue that forms the look of the face. Depending on your type of injury -tissue, cartilage and bone may have been disrupted due to the injury that also damaged the skin - you may look more or less different from before your injury. If they take all the underlying tissue from the donour, you will look neither like you did before, or like the donour.
However, of course you will look very different from your injured state, providing the transplant is successful. We should remember though that patients who are up for face transplantation have already undergone a major, damaging change of face, a change that transformed then from normal looking people to something others shy away from. I would certainly think it's a much bigger adaptation for both the patient and the people around him/her to get used to the damaged, injured face then to get used to new face that looks quite a bit like the person did before. Of course there will be adjustment and identity issues, but hardly worse than after the injury.
This is a link to Swedish newspaper, sorry for that but it shows pictures of a woman waiting for a face transplant in the US.
http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/nyheter/s ... 97,00.html
Regarding the gender perspective, men have beard growth in the face, I'm not sure what will happen to that in a female who does not have the same hormonal ratios. Men also have larger pores in the skin than women. Of course, when you do any kind of skin transplant from another person, the skin you receive will not look exactly the same as your own, it may have a different structure and different hue. Same think with taking skins from other species if this was possible. The skin will have a different structure and hue than your own skin - but on the other hand, not by far as different as the burnt scar tissue your face consist of now (most people interested in face transplants are burning injury victims).
However, if the patient is aware and informed about these skin differences, I think the psychological aspects are minor compared to the injury they already gone through, and also, minor compared to the issue that is my concern - the safety of the procedure. It's only about a 50% chance of success, and I won't go into medical details since Fiona requested no science, but the side effects of the immunosuppresive drugs you have to take before and after the transplant, are very severe.
"There are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the latter ignorance." - Hippocrates
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dj_venom
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[QUOTE=slade]:speech: Phreddie thats the first thing Ive been able to read without guessing what you meant ...sorry fiona if I spammed [/QUOTE]
I agree with that 110%, well done Phreddie .
I don't think it's that big of a deal. You would get used to it suprisingly fast.
Here's an example. When someone needs glasses, they always look different... for about a week of seeing them often. After that, when they take them off, they look weird then.
We are constantly experiencing change, and as such, we can cope with a simple change of face... though it would be unnerving the first couple of times.
...sorry fiona if I spammed [/QUOTE]I agree with that 110%, well done Phreddie
.I don't think it's that big of a deal. You would get used to it suprisingly fast.
Here's an example. When someone needs glasses, they always look different... for about a week of seeing them often. After that, when they take them off, they look weird then.
We are constantly experiencing change, and as such, we can cope with a simple change of face... though it would be unnerving the first couple of times.
In memorian: Fiona; Ravager; Lestat; Phreddie; and all of those from the 1500 incident. Lest we forget.
[QUOTE=dj_venom]We are constantly experiencing change, and as such, we can cope with a simple change of face... though it would be unnerving the first couple of times.[/QUOTE]
I dont think it will be that easy to get use to IMH. Its the same thing with people who have been overweight their whole lives and finally go through surgery to reduce the weight...so now this person is thin and is kind of feeling like there some one new because there definately going to be treated different and the person may want to regress back to there normal self....as a self defense mechanism.
Also we identify ourselves by our looks...or at least we try to.....Its funny too..in the matrix...when they are plugged or what ever, they can change there appearance(clothes)...but notice how no one changed there look??..as far as the whole face...with neo he just grew hair ..while he could have just changed everything about him
I dont think it will be that easy to get use to IMH. Its the same thing with people who have been overweight their whole lives and finally go through surgery to reduce the weight...so now this person is thin and is kind of feeling like there some one new because there definately going to be treated different and the person may want to regress back to there normal self....as a self defense mechanism.
Also we identify ourselves by our looks...or at least we try to.....Its funny too..in the matrix...when they are plugged or what ever, they can change there appearance(clothes)...but notice how no one changed there look??..as far as the whole face...with neo he just grew hair
..while he could have just changed everything about him Wondering how vampires live the life they live.....
seriously I dont know how they sleep during the day, I have a twitch everytime I hear a loud sound as I slumber, everytime ....Im just waiting to pounce on the poor mortal who creates a sound while I sleep in during the day. /rant
seriously I dont know how they sleep during the day, I have a twitch everytime I hear a loud sound as I slumber, everytime ....Im just waiting to pounce on the poor mortal who creates a sound while I sleep in during the day. /rant
Don't forget that face transplants will mainly be used for burns victims, or for others who have suffered disfiguring injuries. In these cases, the person will have lost their original appearance, and in many cases won't look particularly human even. A face transplant at least gives them a chance to have at least a normal human appearance.