POLL: Ability Scores

MegaToerist · Post by **MegaToerist** » Sun Jul 29, 2001 1:10 am

I was just wondering what kind of scores you use for the different abilities. If you're patient enough, you could always wait for the 18/18/18/18/18/18 roll (or use the [Crtl]+[Shift]+8

), but I think it's not quite challenging anymore. I've even developped (sp?) some rule to keep all my characters somewhat equal in power.

The theory is that, while generating scores with 3d6 rolls, the average score will be 9-12 (this is also the range that gives you no bonuses or penalties). Then, assuming that adventurers are somewhat tougher than the average person, having 12 in all 6 stats is considered "normal". This adds up to 78 points to distribute between ability scores.
The next thing to take into consideration, is the ability requirements. e.g. a required ability score of 14 would give you 1 extra point to assign. This adds up to the following scores for all classes:

Barbarian: 78
Bard: 82
Cleric: 78
Druid: 81
Fighter: 78
Mage: 78
Monk: 78
Paladin: 83
Ranger: 84
Sorcerer: 78
Thief: 78

Finally, there are some extra points to be assigned: a dual- or multiclass character gets 3 extra points, while a protagonist gets another 3 points to reflect his godly nature.

I've used this method ever since BG1, in both single and multi-player parties, and found the game quite challenging. Not having all 18's can be fun

. It also seems that most NPCs are superior to player-controlled characters. So, the only thing you can gain by going for a multiplayer game, is the fact that you can really create the party you want.
Also, this makes characters such as the Kensai/Mage or Kensai/Thief a bit harder to create

.

What do you think?
What are your score totals?

TC, Geert

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Sun Jul 29, 2001 3:04 am

Heh, I'd go for Ranger-Cleric dual.

But, seriously, lowering the number of available points in a game where Wisdom and Charisma don't mean cr@p and Int is only good for Mages might kinda lead to an over-representation of Int 3 Wis 3 Cha 3 characters...

D&D3's point buy method generates customized but balanced characters (no Strength 18 Int 3 Fighters), and something along those lines would be my favorite. I never feel good about handicapping myself in the game, and I don't feel good about Int/Wis/Cha 3 either.

MegaToerist · Post by **MegaToerist** » Sun Jul 29, 2001 3:32 am

Who said anything about scores with a 3? Of course, there are those who would do this, but I'm not playing that game

.

My Half-Elven Ranger has these scores:
Str 13
Dex 19 -> played through BG1
Con 16
Int 13
Wis 17
Cha 11

No, the strength is not that low to just use a Girdle for it. My ranger is a warrior who uses stealth and agility instead of brute force.

My Dwarven Fighter:
Str 16
Dex 10
Con 19
Int 9
Wis 14
Cha 10

I think these characters are decent, but without getting irrealistic (if thats' applicable in a RPG

)

Naturally, this is just my opinion on the whole ability score topic, and I'm feeling fine by using these guidelines.

TC, Geert

Silvanerian · Post by **Silvanerian** » Sun Jul 29, 2001 3:32 am

I agree with Xyx here.

It all depends on what you feel your character is like. I mean, not many choose a fighter and not put in 15 or above in str.

When I create a character I don't create an over-powered one anymore.
But I'm not gonna limit myself with a preset number of maximum of ability scores to deal out.

If I create a mage, he's gonna get 18 int and very high wisdow also, as my perception of a mage is a person that's very intelligent, but ALSO one that knows a lot of stuff.
Then, I like the idea of the guy (protagonist always) being charming, which means high charisma (14+)

So, in conclusion, when I create a character I don't really look at how many ability point he gets, as long as he fits my inner perception of the guy.

E.I: My last character was a paladin. He has 15 str
18 dex
16 con
15 int
17 wis
20 cha

So, I modified the charisma to match up with my perception of a paladin; a noble fighter of light which is very wise and kind and has the awe of most he meets. But the fact that I modified his stats didn't made him some sort of supreme fighter.

-Silvanerian

MegaToerist · Post by **MegaToerist** » Sun Jul 29, 2001 4:31 am

If you're creating the character you have in mind, it's certainly okay with me: you're "roleplaying" (for as far thta's possible with a computer game

) I just use this system to keep characters of somewhat the same power (which really helps in multiplayer games: it's not fun when your playing in the same party as a 18/18/18/18/**/** Kensai/Mage. That guy is capable of killing everything by himself, and you're just being the fifth wheel on the car...). A system only tries to do what it's designed to do: keep everything in balance.

I'm coming from PnP games, where it was extremely hard to get rolls of 16 or higher, so I'm accustomed to lower ability scores (though the 78 scores are a higher average than you'll find with PnP characters).

Like you, Silvanerian, I use my imagination while creating characters, but the difference is I'm doing it with a restriction to the point total. (I want my characters to be just slightly better than the average person, but, again, that's just me)

I'm not saying that anyone should use my system; I was just asking if there are people that create their characters within the boundaries of *someting*, be it a point system or imagination, and what that system would be...

Edit: @Xyx: What is that new D&D system? It sounds nice...

TC, Geert

[ 07-29-2001: Message edited by: MegaToerist ]

Silvanerian · Post by **Silvanerian** » Sun Jul 29, 2001 5:13 am

To Geert:

My guideline is this: I don't want to compromise with my characters, so I usully end up getting a (very) high average on stats, as I have very high thoughts about my characters. Also, I play solo most of the time. (I've done all the things now, so it's more "fun" to see if I can go through it all with a wizardslayer for instance)
One thing I don't want in my character is this:

In my first BGII game I used an imported Fightertype with natural 19 str, 18 dex, 19 con (from all the tomes). The result was that everything I battled was torn to splinters.
"Wow, I thought - what fun" (NOT)

So I try not to make my character too good at what he does.
Ei the "low" str for a fighter. It's actually pretty hard going through the first dungeon with a 7th level solo fightertype with no bonusses.

But I also doesn't want my characters to become too weak. It's just not fun reloading all the time because you want a "challenge".

For me, the real challenge doesn't come from the game itself, it comes from making a character that you really like playing, and that just about cut it in the battlepower, so it not "oh, another beholder...give me the Shield of B. YAWN" or "lich? how wonderfully boring that I just happen to have yet another protection scroll from undead - only 900gp"

-Silvanerian

Silvanerian · Post by **Silvanerian** » Sun Jul 29, 2001 5:24 am

Oh, another thing Geert:

I've played some PnP also, and after I finished the game for the first time, I did what you're doing:
"Low" stats, not using the Ring of Gaxx if the character is good - that sort of things.
But this game isn't (unfortunatly) made for that kind of gameplay - especially not if you're soloing!
So all the good intentions fly right out the window to be replaced by irritation for having to constantly reloading, just because you don't use the overpowerful items.
Ei: why would an archer keep a staff that happens to be able to summon an air elemental?
Do you picture that character with a bagpack, 30 potions, a bow, a meleeweapon, 2 helmets, some staffs, 4 enchanted platemails to sell, and some dragon scales on his back?
If you do - fine with me, but certainly do not.

-Silvanerian

MegaToerist · Post by **MegaToerist** » Sun Jul 29, 2001 5:34 am

@Silvanerian:

If you're soloing, that's a completely other thing: you'll need every edge you can get...

For me, the real challenge [...] comes from making a character that you really like playing, and that just about cut it in the battlepower [...]

Absolutely right!

TC, Geert

Silvanerian · Post by **Silvanerian** » Sun Jul 29, 2001 7:24 am

But then again, people shouldn't feel guilty for creating a character with maximum stats (almost) and max. HP's. Take a look at Sarevok for instance. 18/00 str. 17 dex. 18 con. (plus some good stats in the other 3 categories as well!) Besides those über stats he also has a higher number of HP than a fighter his level is even capable of (not counting Hell or HP gained through items)
Okay, I think. He's a god-child (or was), but so am I!
Yet, it just might take some of the fun out of the game being able to singlehandedly take out a whole army of Fire-Giant.

-Silvanerian

MegaToerist · Post by **MegaToerist** » Sun Jul 29, 2001 7:44 am

I've played some PnP also, and after I finished the game for the first time, I did what you're doing:
"Low" stats, not using the Ring of Gaxx if the character is good - that sort of things.

It's what I've been doing ever since I started playing this game...

But this game isn't (unfortunatly) made for that kind of gameplay - especially not if you're soloing!

Indeed. It's never going to replace the feel you get from sitting around a table instead of behind a computer screen. *sigh*
But we're trying to beat the game by doing it according to our own, harder, rules, aren't we?

So all the good intentions fly right out the window to be replaced by irritation for having to constantly reloading, just because you don't use the overpowerful items.

I personally love beating that situation that has forced me to reload after reload. It gives me the feeling I've used that little grey mass.

Do you picture that character with a bagpack, 30 potions, a bow, a meleeweapon, 2 helmets, some staffs, 4 enchanted platemails to sell, and some dragon scales on his back?

Nope. I don't even agree with the number of quickslots. It's not realistic to have 2 swords, a bow and a halberd ready. I normally only use 2 quickweapon slots: my sword and my bow. Perhaps introducing a bulk system would have given the game a more realistic feel. It would be impossible to even carry around multiple suits of armor.

But then again, people shouldn't feel guilty for creating a character with maximum stats (almost) and max. HP's.

Certainly not. Everybody plays this game their own way. It's just not my kind of approach.

Take a look at Sarevok for instance. 18/00 str. 17 dex. 18 con. (plus some good stats in the other 3 categories as well!) Besides those über stats he also has a higher number of HP than a fighter his level is even capable of (not counting Hell or HP gained through items)
Okay, I think. He's a god-child (or was), but so am I!
Yet, it just might take some of the fun out of the game being able to singlehandedly take out a whole army of Fire-Giant.

Can't talk about it, as I haven't got ToB yet.

Take Care, Geert

Callimar · Post by **Callimar** » Sun Jul 29, 2001 7:58 am

You could also look at this from another angle:

You're a god-child. And so is Sarevok. Sarevok has nearly maximum stats for everything apart from Wisdom. You've killed Sarevok though. This means you are powerful, even if you did have a party behind you. You have been told by some and have proved it to yourself that you're the most powerful Bhaalspawn. This means you don't have your average "Joe Orc's" roles. You've slain dragons/demons/bhaalspawn chinchillas/ and countless other creatures. You aren't just any adventurer out on a Sunday stroll, you're a famous hero, and heroes have to be powerful to survive. Looked at from that way it's okay to have high stats, higher than you would ever really get playing PnP. Just a thought...

mikeheitz · Post by **mikeheitz** » Sun Jul 29, 2001 8:00 am

If my main character is a tank, then I go for a high STR, DEX, and CON. I'll play with the numbers to get those, but I'll never go below 7 or 8 on the WIS or INT. It was tough with my current PC, a Ranger/Cleric multi because you have to have a high Wisdom, so I sacrificed some CHA because I knew I'd find the ring that boosts that up anyways.

My PC's that are not tanks, obviously STR is only importnat for carrying stuff. So sacrificing STR points to add to INT or WIS is the way to go. All in all, I don't think I've ever had a char with all 18's. I think I'd get bored playing with an "ubermensch" like that!!!

HEY, I did't even know about [Ctrl]+[Shift]+8!!! Does that really work???

Sabre · Post by **Sabre** » Sun Jul 29, 2001 8:05 am

After you put the Debug Mode=1 thing in the Baldur.ini file you can use the keys to set all your abilities to 18 - this can only be done while you're at the Ability, during Character Creation. It's only CTRL + 8, you don't need the SHIFT key. There's a trick with this as well, if you minus the scores you already have - the number will appear at the top saying you have extra points to play with. Then press CTRL + 8, all your stats are set to 18 and the extra points are still there; so you can get more than 18 in a stat if your race allow it.

[ 07-29-2001: Message edited by: Sabre ]

MegaToerist · Post by **MegaToerist** » Sun Jul 29, 2001 8:24 am

Originally posted by Callimar:
You're a god-child. And so is Sarevok. Sarevok has nearly maximum stats for everything apart from Wisdom. You've killed Sarevok though. This means you are powerful, even if you did have a party behind you. You have been told by some and have proved it to yourself that you're the most powerful Bhaalspawn. This means you don't have your average "Joe Orc's" roles. You've slain dragons/demons/bhaalspawn chinchillas/ and countless other creatures. You aren't just any adventurer out on a Sunday stroll, you're a famous hero, and heroes have to be powerful to survive. Looked at from that way it's okay to have high stats, higher than you would ever really get playing PnP. Just a thought...

True. But I've also done that while having lower scores

. I've taken the Bhaal-essence into account with the 3 extra points, so I'm following the same reasoning.

@Sabre:
On my PC, it's [Crtl]+[Shift]+!. The "8" on the numeric pad doesn't do anything, so it might be that the [Shift] is only used to get to the "8" on the alphanumeric pad. OTOH, during the game, you don't need the [Shift] to get number in the CLUAConsole...

TC, Geert

Callimar · Post by **Callimar** » Sun Jul 29, 2001 8:30 am

3 points is a bit mean don't you think? Surely a God's blood counts for more than that...

Sabre · Post by **Sabre** » Sun Jul 29, 2001 8:30 am

CTRL + 8 always works for me, the "8" is above the letters - where the numbers are in one row, not the one on the right of the keyboard - where the numbers are in three rows, four if you're counting the "0".

MegaToerist · Post by **MegaToerist** » Sun Jul 29, 2001 8:33 am

@Callimar: I've found the 3 points work just fine...

@Sabre: I'm using the same "8"-key as you. Any idea where the difference might come from?

TC, Geert

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Sun Jul 29, 2001 8:46 am

Originally posted by MegaToerist:
<STRONG>What is that new D&D system? It sounds nice...</STRONG>

D&D3 has a "Standard Point Buy" optional method of generating ability scores. All start at 8, you must spend points to go higher:
9 1
10 2
11 3
12 4
13 5
14 6
15 8
16 10
17 13
18 16

The number of points you get depends on the "type" of campaign:
Low-powered: 15
Challenging: 22
Tougher: 28
High-powered: 32

All this is before racial modifiers are applied. Also, in D&D3, characters can add an extra point to their ability scores every 4th level.

An alternative way that I think works very good for PnP is to start out with all stats at 14 or so (depending on the desired power level). Then, alter stats according to the very simple rule of "lower two, raise one". Really want that 18 Strength? Takes 8 points off of the rest (of course, in BG that would often mean 8 points of Int, Wis and Cha

).

One of the good points of the D&D3 system is that Int, Wis and Cha are actually useful to everyone (in varying degrees, but still). Int 13 is even required of Fighters that want to learn some special abilities.

Sabre · Post by **Sabre** » Sun Jul 29, 2001 8:46 am

The only thing that I can think of is the version of the game, since we're from different countries the version available is different. You have the Europe version and I have the Asia Pacific version, not really sure, but that's the only thing that seems to make sense.

prateek · Post by **prateek** » Sun Jul 29, 2001 9:58 am

i haven't played BG1 but i have played 2, and am going thru TOB. i plan on getting BG1 and TOSC after i beat TOB ( abit out of order, correct?) well, anyway it sux taht there isn't a sorc class in BG1. stick with a mage i guess

and no, being my silly self, i DIDN'T get the bonuses fromt eh tears of bhaal. (stupid importing)

anyway my sorcerer (prateek)

st-10
dex-10 (originally 12, lost one from chp 4 dream, and from nine hells)
cons-14
int-19 (thank you lum)
wis-11
cha-12.

a bit overpowered in the const/int part. but that's k, it kinda suits me in real life too

okay, lowre the int to 16 or 17, then it's correct. ah well. ( assuming avg is 11-14.)