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Compulsory abortions? (no spam)

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fable
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Compulsory abortions? (no spam)

Post by fable »

I just came across this on the Radio Netherlands website, today:

Rotterdam alderman Marianne van den Anker has caused consternation with remarks about compulsory abortion. Speaking in a newspaper interview she proposed introducing compulsory abortion for drug addicts, the mentally handicapped and Antillean teenagers. The alderman, who represents the local party Leefbaar Rotterdam and whose portfolio includes public health, argued this would reduce the chances of the children growing up in a chaotic and abusive environment.

The other two parties on the city council, the Christian Democrats and the conservative VVD, called her remarks "astonishing and unacceptable". The chairman of Ms Van den Anker's own party said he agreed with her but her timing was unfortunate. Local elections are due to take place next month throughout the Netherlands.


My favorite part is where the Leefbaar Rotterdam chairman said the timing of van den Anker's remarks were "unfortunate." Presumably it would have been best to display rampant xenophobic fascism in private, where the smell wouldn't choke others, or perhaps wait for the ascension of the police state.

I suppose you can guess my opinions of her recommendations. ;) But interestingly enough, such practices have occurred, before. And not just by the Nazis, who used them on their various victim groups. Indonesia is said to have used it in East Timor; China has been severely criticized by the UN for doing so. What do you think of the idea, and what do you think of Ms. van den Anker's championing of it? Is there any cause in which it could be used--for example, the mentally handicapped?
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Post by Fiona »

Sorry Fable but from where I stand that is a non starter. Who could you trust with such a decision? It does seem to be in nature of a perennial temptation, however.
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Post by TonyMontana1638 »

Wow. She was serious with that idea? I know it isn't a foreign concept, but it's astounding to see someone bring up such an idea in a serious fashion. That was shocking Fable.
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Post by Fiona »

@ Tony. I think it is one of those ideas which is always there. I suppose I tend to think of them as an indication of where a given society is on the "civilisation" scale, for want of a better way to describe it. In short if things are going Ok such things are not said by mainstream politicians: but if the climate is harsh they crawl out of the shame hole
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Post by dragon wench »

*shudders*
Eugenics revisited.... Reading that is nightmarish..

I think the notion of compulsory abortion is as appalling as restricting peoples' reproductive choices...
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Post by TonyMontana1638 »

[QUOTE=Fiona]@ Tony. I think it is one of those ideas which is always there. I suppose I tend to think of them as an indication of where a given society is on the "civilisation" scale, for want of a better way to describe it. In short if things are going Ok such things are not said by mainstream politicians: but if the climate is harsh they crawl out of the shame hole[/QUOTE]

I suppose but I'd rather not use politicians as the sole indicator of where we are on the "civilisation" scale: they're prickly, ignorant, deceitful, narrow-minded, delusional and immoral even during the best of times ;) . I agree with you though that's something that's always there, the possibility I mean; you just have to hope that morality builds a wall around it.

@ DW: I agree, possibly worse. Depends on whether you think the prevention of life or the destruction of it is worse.
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Post by Fiona »

@Tony. I wasn't very clear. I did not mean politicians were the sole indicator. I believe that (this is shorthand, not literal) right and left wing ideas are always there and so are the extremes. There is an element of leadership but also of following. Politicians are a bit like canaries in a mine, indicating which side is in the ascendant ( only in democracies of course). I hope that makes more sense, even if you don't agree :)
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Post by TonyMontana1638 »

[QUOTE=Fiona]@Tony. I wasn't very clear. I did not mean politicians were the sole indicator. I believe that (this is shorthand, not literal) right and left wing ideas are always there and so are the extremes. There is an element of leadership but also of following. Politicians are a bit like canaries in a mine, indicating which side is in the ascendant ( only in democracies of course). I hope that makes more sense, even if you don't agree :) [/QUOTE]

No, no I know what you meant I was just being annoying and doing my best to poke fun at politics. I do agree with you. ;) :D
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Post by fable »

It's scary, too, to realize that Leefbaar Rotterdam wields considerable power, and is associated with other far right parties that have done extremely well in recent years in the Netherlands. They aren't just loonies; or if they are, they are loonies that have convinced a lot of seemingly intelligent people to vote for them.
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Post by dragon wench »

I can't help but wonder if the growing extreme right wing in the Netherlands isn't, in part, some kind of backlash against the progressive liberalism so long a part of Dutch culture?

Though, it's ages since I've been in the country, I could be way off base with this.
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Post by Fiona »

I don't know about the Netherlands, DW, but it seems to be happening in a lot of places which haven't been particularly progressive as well *cough*USandUK*cough*
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Post by arno_v »

They, Leefbaar Rotterdam, keep surprising me. For instance they had a plan the other day which was to make it compulsory to speak Dutch on the streets of Rotterdam, of course this was impossible because of our constitution. And now this, I can't believe the chairman of Leefbaar Rotterdam said the timing was unfortunate, would it been a good timing if she said this a month after the elections? I don't think this plan will actually become reality, but it is quite scary that a party which had a considerably strong support here comes with such ideas. Hope we'll some some change occur after the elections in march...
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Post by Luis Antonio »

[QUOTE=Fiona]I don't know about the Netherlands, DW, but it seems to be happening in a lot of places which haven't been particularly progressive as well *cough*USandUK*cough*[/QUOTE]

Being progressive is being conservative nowadays in some countries. Here it is happening as well... People are scared, I guess.

@Fable, I disagree with the compulsory abortion in every way. However, to make abortions legal may help to decrease the problems of child being grown into somewhere bad, and it is not as invasive measure as you being forced to abort due to that... damn, this seems so despotic to my eyes.
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Post by Magrus »

Meh, if I stopped my biased human thought patterns, it would be better for the world if we dropped the human population well below 100 million people I'd say. However, killing abnormal fetus' won't quite reach this goal, so I'd say no on that one. Babies are good, it's the older people that irritate the hell out of me.

Many societies used to use such practices. Didn't Ancient Greece used to do so with anyone who was physically deformed as well?
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Post by Moonbiter »

Many societies used to use such practices. Didn't Ancient Greece used to do so with anyone who was physically deformed as well?
That wasn't abortions, as they obviously couldn't know in advance if the child was deformed. However, it's being said that the Spartans killed newborn babies that didn't reach certain physical standards. It's important to remember that in many ancient societies, mentally challenged children/people were often revered as being "touched by the gods," so killing them was not a norm way back yonder.

I've had this debate a hundred times, and it's never going to go away and will always be exploited by elitist hate-mongerers of all kinds. It's such an easy question to ask: "Why shouldn't a blind, deaf, deformed and possibly mentally challenged crack baby born with a lethal addiction be aborted?" And then we're off again. :mad: :rolleyes:

@DW: Yes, I don't think that there's any doubt about strongly liberal societies being breeding grounds for hate groups. I actually have a pretty good example: Back in the late 80s and early 90s, Norway's laws on abortion was a complete free-for-all. This lead to young girls using abortion instead of birth control, the consensus being "Who cares if I get pregnant, I'll just get an abortion." This in turn lead to the emergence and popularity of an extreme group of militant anti-abortionists, unlike anything we'd seen or heard of before. They never got as far as in the US, meaning they didn't bomb clinics or kill doctors, but they were certainly getting there. As is usual in this country, people were slow to react. When finally the Ministry Of Health sounded the alarm, it was not uncommon for young girls in certain parts of the country to have had 3-4 abortions before the age of 20, and the anti-abortionists were organizing violent demonstrations, tossing burning dolls at clinics and mailing stolen dead foetuses(sp?) to the Prime Minister.
What happened was basically that we got stricter laws on the use of abortion, but also lowered the legal age for getting birth control for women, and made birth control pills (almost) free. The result was almost instant, as the number of registered abortions dropped by a whopping 55% in a year, and the rabid anti-abortionists were confined to the "nutcase-extremists" -closet, and has practically never been heard from again.
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Post by TonyMontana1638 »

I watched a video called "Science and the Swaztika" on the history channel today that detailed the Third Reich's usage of eugenics to support the whole "master race" thing we're so familiar with. I won't go into detail because it's too horrible too describe, so much so you can probably just take your worst nightmares concerning forced sterilization and euthanasia, slap some black leather and an awful mustache on it and you have Germany circa 1935. Why I bring this up is because of how eery it was to listen to the atrocities they committed and their twisted justification for it all, and then remember this crazy politician. I just... *sigh* I don't understand it.
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Post by Magrus »

@ Tony, My grandfather, his two older brothers and their mother left Germany a bit after that time because of that stuff going on, amongst other things. Their sister/daughter decided not to leave though, she didn't survive the whole WW2 thing either. :( Anyways, none of them will get into the stuff that went on there. They just kind of shudder, turn and walk away when asked, even by family members.

@ Moonbiter, Yes, sorry, I posted that in a rush this morning before work. I didn't quite phrase that properly though. There have been records of numerous societies killing babies with birth defects, at least thats what I was taught in school.
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Post by Moonbiter »

@ Moonbiter, Yes, sorry, I posted that in a rush this morning before work. I didn't quite phrase that properly though. There have been records of numerous societies killing babies with birth defects, at least thats what I was taught in school.
Don't worry. I was being a bit stroppy and pedantic, but I took your meaning.

As for selective breeding, that's a still (luckily) illegal nightmare that is just around the corner for us, and something I'll probably have to look in the ugly face before I kick the bucket. Let's face it, it won't take more than max 30 years before we'll have to deal with the moral question of Designer Babies being up for grabs for the monied society. It's a fact of life that we humans will have to deal with sooner or later, and my guess is sooner.
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