PC Express or ATI, or is it AGP?

William Bobo · Post by **William Bobo** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:42 pm

Ok you probably figured out I know about as much as my cat does about hardware.

I bought Oblivian and thought I had everything to run it -3500+ Athlon, gig of ram and a nVidia 5950 with 256 megs of video ram.

Needless to say the game looks beautiful (and what a brilliant piece of work it is) but my frame rate is like watching pictures in an art museum.

I went to Best Buy today and the guy said its not about video ram but shaders and (other stuff) whatever. He said my video card is obsolete, even though I paid $500 for the thing only 18 months ago! He showed me a nVidia card for a hundred bucks that is superior to mine! Then he started on about Radeon. I've heard Radeon cards have serious compatibility problems with a lot of games. I don't want a card that isn't compatible with CIV 4 for example.

THEN, as if I wasn't already confused enough, he started going on about PC Express vs' ATI or AGP I can't remember which, but apparently PC express is "the future". Is that true?

Bottom line is, I'm not that concerned about cost, I just want to get the very best video card I can that will run the game ... I REALLY want to play Oblivion with a decent frame rate. I just don't know what to do?

Can someone who knows something about all this just tell me what card to buy?

Thanks in advance for any help you can give me.

Rookierookie · Post by **Rookierookie** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:39 pm

I went to Best Buy today and the guy said its not about video ram but shaders and (other stuff) whatever.

He's right, the FX series are horrible with DirectX 9.

He said my video card is obsolete, even though I paid $500 for the thing only 18 months ago!

Too bad. But the Geforce FX does suck.

Then he started on about Radeon. I've heard Radeon cards have serious compatibility problems with a lot of games. I don't want a card that isn't compatible with CIV 4 for example.

Bull crap, Radeons are no more incompatible with games than Geforce are.

THEN, as if I wasn't already confused enough, he started going on about PC Express vs' ATI or AGP I can't remember which, but apparently PC express is "the future". Is that true?

PCI-Express vs AGP
PCI-Express = newer
AGP = older
But you only have AGP
So you are stuck with AGP cards

Bottom line is, I'm not that concerned about cost, I just want to get the very best video card I can that will run the game ... I REALLY want to play Oblivion with a decent frame rate. I just don't know what to do?

Can someone who knows something about all this just tell me what card to buy?

Thanks in advance for any help you can give me.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6814130273

Or, if you manage to find it,
http://www.gainward.net/products/produc ... ucts_id=29

blueray · Post by **blueray** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:25 am

William Bobo wrote:Ok you probably figured out I know about as much as my cat does about hardware.

Okay, noted.

I bought Oblivian and thought I had everything to run it -3500+ Athlon, gig of ram and a nVidia 5950 with 256 megs of video ram.

Needless to say the game looks beautiful (and what a brilliant piece of work it is) but my frame rate is like watching pictures in an art museum.

I went to Best Buy today and the guy said its not about video ram but shaders and (other stuff) whatever. He said my video card is obsolete, even though I paid $500 for the thing only 18 months ago!

That's the problem with display card manufacturers, they are raising the price and pushing out newer generations of GPUs faster than we can save up to get them.

He showed me a nVidia card for a hundred bucks that is superior to mine! Then he started on about Radeon. I've heard Radeon cards have serious compatibility problems with a lot of games. I don't want a card that isn't compatible with CIV 4 for example.

Bulls! My R9600XT never ever gave me any problem during gaming, not even with KotOR 2 when lots of people complaining about their ATi cards having problem. Those are most likely problems with their own system configuration, but they simply blame it to their ATi cards, just because ATi is not the biggest GPU maker, so they are subconciously thinking their display card is inferior. I used to be using GeForce (MX series anyway), however, when I decided to step up to the mainstream rank and ordered a GF5500FX, that's the biggest mistake - I returned the card the next day, because the performance of that card is even more disappointing than the GF440MX I used. I have decided to jump camp and selected the R9600XT, and is happy with it till present day, even when I have to play at low setting for Oblivion.

THEN, as if I wasn't already confused enough, he started going on about PC Express vs' ATI or AGP I can't remember which, but apparently PC express is "the future". Is that true?

Yes, AGP is already at it's limit. PCI-E is going to be the mainstream (in fact it's already considered mainstream). However, assuming your current mainboard is one equipped with AGP, you will have to change the mainboard if you want to go PCI-E. And while you are changing to PCI-E, it will be wise to revise your CPU, since you can choose a new socket while picking the new mainboard. Though you didn't specify your CPU type clearly, I guess it most likely is an AthlonXP. So now it's time for you to step up to Athlon64 with socket 939, instead of the older socket A or other. Like PCI-E, 64 bit will be the future - it will be obvious when Windows Vista is launched next year.

Other than that, you may want to consider a more premium CPU, like the dual core Athlon64 X2, which I heard is the optimum for Oblivion.

Bottom line is, I'm not that concerned about cost, I just want to get the very best video card I can that will run the game ... I REALLY want to play Oblivion with a decent frame rate. I just don't know what to do?

If cost is not a problem and you want absolute great performance, I'll suggest:

- Athlon64 x2 for the CPU,
- 2x1GB of DDR2 800 Memory (or 2x2GB if you can find those modules) - you need 2 identical sticks of RAM to run in dual channel mode, for better performance.
- 2x GF7800GT (or whatever the model is) running in SLI mode. ATi offers CrossFire platform, but you need specific mainboards (like the nVidia SLI did, but SLI mainboards are quite common now, compared to CrossFire mainboard). However CrossFire do offer better flexibility when choosing a pair of cards - the SLI will require 2 identical cards while XFire allow for different cards. SLI or XFire platform should let you play Oblivion in its full glory at very high setting.
-though I have no actual experiance in RAID performance yet (still saving up to buy a pair of SATA harddisks to begin with), a pair of SATA 7200rpm harddisk should give a smoother and shorter loading time for any application, games or not.

If you want to save all the hastle of hunting for the parts and installing them togather, I'd suggest you spend about 5000 USD with Alienware or AAC and have them custom build a super duper system for you. Check http://www.tomshardware.com or Anandtech for reviews/articles. I hope you and your cat will enjoy reading the reviews of the systems that make geeks drool.

Can someone who knows something about all this just tell me what card to buy?

Thanks in advance for any help you can give me.

see above.

Rookierookie · Post by **Rookierookie** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:10 am

That's the problem with display card manufacturers, they are raising the price and pushing out newer generations of GPUs faster than we can save up to get them.

They way I see it, is that they keep slashing their prices such that a $50 display card is already faster than my two-year-old $200 card...

Though you didn't specify your CPU type clearly, I guess it most likely is an AthlonXP.

Erm...an Athlon XP with a 3500+ PR-rating?

- 2x1GB of DDR2 800 Memory (or 2x2GB if you can find those modules) - you need 2 identical sticks of RAM to run in dual channel mode, for better performance.

Are you suggesting that he pairs up his Athlon64 with DDR2 memory?

blueray · Post by **blueray** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:25 am

They way I see it, is that they keep slashing their prices such that a $50 display card is already faster than my two-year-old $200 card...

maybe, but it's a different story at the higher end. The top models are getting more and more expensive, now one single top model card is costing more than an entire decent system. He paid $500 for a GF5950, the flag ship class card, so I am talking about the top models now, too.

Erm...an Athlon XP with a 3500+ PR-rating?

may be, I didn't follow the processor trend closely, last I saw on AXP was 3200+, so I guess 3500+ is achievable?

Are you suggesting that he pairs up his Athlon64 with DDR2 memory?

Why not? Okay, DDR2 800 is not commonly available yet (I just checked), maybe DDR2 667 then. If you could afford it (not that I'm saying you couldn't), wouldn't you go for DDR2 instead of DDR, regardless that the performance gain for NOW isn't significant, but how about in the future? In, say, 6 months down the road, or even 1 year later, I guess DDR2 will be mainstream by then, and when you decided to upgrade again, for a MoBo/CPU combo that can really take advantages of DDR2, you already got the RAM, so you won't need to fork out so much.

Rookierookie · Post by **Rookierookie** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:41 am

maybe, but it's a different story at the higher end. The top models are getting more and more expensive, now one single top model card is costing more than an entire decent system. He paid $500 for a GF5950, the flag ship class card, so I am talking about the top models now, too.

The flagships STILL cost $500. They used to cost more.

may be, I didn't follow the processor trend closely, last I saw on AXP was 3200+, so I guess 3500+ is achievable?

AXP died out at 3200+.

Why not? Okay, DDR2 800 is not commonly available yet (I just checked), maybe DDR2 667 then. If you could afford it (not that I'm saying you couldn't), wouldn't you go for DDR2 instead of DDR, regardless that the performance gain for NOW isn't significant, but how about in the future? In, say, 6 months down the road, or even 1 year later, I guess DDR2 will be mainstream by then, and when you decided to upgrade again, for a MoBo/CPU combo that can really take advantages of DDR2, you already got the RAM, so you won't need to fork out so much.

Until you realize that no AMD CPUs support DDR2, and you'll have to wait until June, at least, to use that DDR2 RAM.

Dyre Straits · Post by **Dyre Straits** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:48 am

Just dealing with the topic of AGP cards only, I've been playing OBLIVION almost non-stop since the day it came out.

I play at 1024 x 768 with details on HIGH and AA off. I have Bloom enabled and have thoroughly enjoyed the game so far.

My RADEON X800 XL AGP card with 256 MB of VRAM has never ceased to amaze me. I've had it about 8 months now and have never regretted it.

This card has 16 PIXEL PIPELINES which makes the card work better than even faster cards with 8 or 12 P/Ps.

With what you have 'under the hood', however, I'd be surprised if even this card would do well enough over 800 x 600. I say that because my daughter-in-law went out -- on a tight budget -- just this past Saturday and bought a new motherboard, AMD 3100+ Sempron, and 512 MB of DDR RAM to add to a 256 MB she already had available. The video card she bought was a X550 PCI Express card with 128 MB of RAM. (Remember, she was on a tight budget, but wanted something that was sufficient to play Oblivion.)

Well, she can't play it over 800 x 600 without lots of stuttering. But, at 800 x 600 she's playing it just fine to suit herself.

AGP is on the way out...but it's not entirely dead yet. My X800 XL card has pushed back my own plans to upgrade to PCIe for at least a year. I simply haven't come across a game yet that my system can't handle well with the right settings.

Good luck to you!

Rookierookie · Post by **Rookierookie** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:23 am

This card has 16 PIXEL PIPELINES which makes the card work better than even faster cards with 8 or 12 P/Ps.

More pixel pipelines = faster, most of the time. I guess you wanted to say "higher clock rate".

With what you have 'under the hood', however, I'd be surprised if even this card would do well enough over 800 x 600.

What do you mean?

Axell · Post by **Axell** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:58 am

There is the Athlon XP-M 3500+ that's what I have.

William Bobo · Post by **William Bobo** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:36 pm

I appreciate the many deep and thoughtful posts. You have given me a lot of info to think about, even if I don't exactly understand what you are talking about ... thanks again ...

RUFFINATOR · Post by **RUFFINATOR** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:25 am

youll understand with some research...hardware is pretty easy to figure out, and once u figure it out u can make it last longer without buying a whole new computer....kinda hehe...anyway...http://www.tomshardware.com is a great source of info on all things computer....i love that page and it'll help ya out...and btw im upgrading to a new computer (athlon x2 4800 w/asus mobo, and 2 geforce 7900gt) for a little over 1500 by buying the parts and canibalizing my old desktop...so you dont have to go get a 5000 alienware or voodoo gaming computer(though they do make geeks drool). hope you figure it out...its an awesome game