Lebanon/Israel situation

Ashen · Post by **Ashen** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:36 am

Apologies for the short opening post but am currently crippled by an awful net connection - anyway, are you following? This is the biggest buildup of army in 6 years, and Israel is shelling L. for a day now, Lebanese militants of Hezbollah retaliating into N.Israel.

Just a few minutes ago, BBC got an announcment that L. are trying to move the two kidnapped Israely soldiers to Iran, which indeed could complicate matters beyond belief. Lebanese Int. Airport closed after being hit, Israel has now an air and sea blockade of Lebanon, it does not look good IMO.

TonyMontana1638 · Post by **TonyMontana1638** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:53 pm

It's sad this powder keg has seemingly exploded again, particularly because my godfather, his wife (who's lebanese) and their two children were in lebanon when the attack began. We have recieved no word from them as of yet, I hope they made it to safety... The embassy seems like the best bet but I don't know.

TonyMontana1638 · Post by **TonyMontana1638** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:58 pm

Good news for my family this past week, as my godfather and his family just returned safe and sound after escaping into Syria and getting a flight home. They had all these horror stories of the situation there, including a bomb that exploded from an Israeli missile not 100 feet from them and another that completely decimated the apartment complex his wife's sisters lived in: none of them were hurt (they were in a bomb shelter) but they lost everything they owned.
They all said how horrible it was trying to get out of the country, apparently the Saudi Arabian government bought up all the public transportation buses and used them to get their people out of the country (Saudi Arabia pretty much owns Lebanon), hanging everybody else out to dry. Bad stuff.

Anyways, I hate to have seemingly hijacked this thread...

dj_venom · Post by **dj_venom** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:20 am

I'm glad to hear your family is safe Tony.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:41 pm

From the Independent 21st July:

[quote="The Independent]Palestinian nation under threat

Sir: The latest chapter of the conflict between Israel and Palestine began when Israeli forces abducted two civilians"]

TonyMontana1638 · Post by **TonyMontana1638** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:58 pm

Wait CE, what is that exactly? A letter? Harold Pinter the playwright? And I've definitely heard Noam Chomsky's name before...

Thanks DJ, a county newspaper actual did a large spread on them... Sounded awful.

Fiona · Post by **Fiona** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:42 am

@Tony

Noam Chomsky, by Zoltán Gendler Szabó, Dictionary of Modern American Philosophers, 1860-1960

It is curious. I met some Americans while I was camping in the Lake District last year and in the course of conversation one of them told me he had seldom heard of Noam Chomsky until he came to the UK. But here he found a lot of people who were interested in his political ideas and to a lesser extent his linguistics. He is very very famous here, and the fact that he is not apparently famous in his own country in the same way puzzles me

Chomsky is the leading critic of American foreign policy writing today. He is robust and some would say extreme but he is also often misrepresented ( for example most recently in my reading, in Francis Wheen's book "Mumbo Jumbo" ). He is willing to debate with just about anyone and he gives lectures in many places, some quite obscure. He is always interesting. I am perhaps biased because he is left wing and there are few who get a platform now; but he is worth listening to because he argues cogently outside the limits of the "acceptable" spread of opinion which is presented as the full range nowadays.

10 years ago he was interviewed by Andrew Marr, a serous political journalist here, and a transcript is available which gives a flavour of his style.

The Big Idea - Interview with Noam Chomsky

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:14 am

Sir: The latest chapter of the conflict between Israel and Palestine began when Israeli forces abducted two civilians, a doctor and his brother, from Gaza - an incident scarcely reported anywhere, except in the Turkish press. The following day the Palestinians took an Israeli soldier prisoner - and proposed a negotiated exchange against prisoners taken by the Israelis, of which there are approximately 10,000 in Israeli jails.

I have a real problem with this. First, if this was actually the case, and the kidnapping of the Israeli soldier was in fact in revenge for the abduction of a pair of Gaza civilians, you'd expect Hisballah to be shouting that fact all over their popular television station, as well as supportive Arab states throwing the gauntlet down in front of regular press coverage at home and at the United Nations. In fact, none of this has happened. I don't know what Turkish media they're referring to, but the people most likely to actually garner benefit from this revelation haven't even brought it up once before their own international media, much less that of other forces.

Luis Antonio · Post by **Luis Antonio** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:40 am

No matter how horrible it is, that war would explode because of the tensions that run high among the "terrorists" of the region and the lack of government support and strenght to avoid the war.

I bet the US will keep quiet now, and I would hope at least this once this conflict would end without Schrub putting his hands over it.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:46 am

[QUOTE=fable]I have a real problem with this. First, if this was actually the case, and the kidnapping of the Israeli soldier was in fact in revenge for the abduction of a pair of Gaza civilians, you'd expect Hisballah to be shouting that fact all over their popular television station, as well as supportive Arab states throwing the gauntlet down in front of regular press coverage at home and at the United Nations. In fact, none of this has happened. I don't know what Turkish media they're referring to, but the people most likely to actually garner benefit from this revelation haven't even brought it up once before their own international media, much less that of other forces.[/QUOTE]

The event has certainly occurred, it was reported in German and Irish media as well as by Reuters (maybe more, I haven't had time to check it). The names of the two brothers are Osama and Mustafa Abu Muamar, and Israel claim they are Hamas members but Hamas and themselves claim they are not. Word against word. Israel have abducted and killed many civilians before, claiming they where members of various terrorist organisation when in fact it was not true. Hamas and other terrorist organisations have, as far as I know, hidden their members among civilians and/or claimed not to be members when they were in fact members, so from previous events there is no way of telling what is true in this case.

I don't know how to find out what is correct. I posted the article because I was hoping somebody had more information (alas, where is Fas when you need him?)

In any case, kidnapping of one doesn't make kidnapping the other right. And regardless of who kidnapped who first, Israel is on the worst overkill we've seen for a long time. I can't see any solution for the Middle east at present. On the contrary I think it's getting worse.

Luis Antonio · Post by **Luis Antonio** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:56 am

[QUOTE=C Elegans]
In any case, kidnapping of one doesn't make kidnapping the other right. And regardless of who kidnapped who first, Israel is on the worst overkill we've seen for a long time. I can't see any solution for the Middle east at present. On the contrary I think it's getting worse.[/QUOTE]

True. Yet, who dares acting against the religious leaders and the political power involved?I think the population is pressed tightly to get involved with one of the sides, and those who dont side are either eliminated or kept in the side of the road, watching and hoping nobody runs over them with a loaded truck.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:02 am

C Elegans wrote:The event has certainly occurred, it was reported in German and Irish media as well as by Reuters (maybe more, I haven't had time to check it). The names of the two brothers are Osama and Mustafa Abu Muamar, and Israel claim they are Hamas members but Hamas and themselves claim they are not. Word against word. Israel have abducted and killed many civilians before, claiming they where members of various terrorist organisation when in fact it was not true. Hamas and other terrorist organisations have, as far as I know, hidden their members among civilians and/or claimed not to be members when they were in fact members, so from previous events there is no way of telling what is true in this case.

Or more importantly, as I was trying to make clear in my post, whether Hamas actually kidnapped the Israeli soldier in revenge, and tried to then arrange a swap for the brothers. That's what I was referring to when I mentioned news that, if true, would be shouted from every television and radio station owned by nations or organisations friendly to Hamas, or at least antithetical to Israel's current government. These are major scoring points, and nobody is mentioning them. Which leads me to conclude that it is likely the soldier's kidnapping had nothing to do with that of the brothers, and that they probably worked for Hamas. Because if they didn't work for Hamas, (again) this would be great propaganda for Hamas, Hisballah, etc.

In any case, kidnapping of one doesn't make kidnapping the other right. And regardless of who kidnapped who first, Israel is on the worst overkill we've seen for a long time. I can't see any solution for the Middle east at present. On the contrary I think it's getting worse.

I think it was Magrus who once pointed out how utterly cynical both sides are in this conflict, causing more casualities to civilians on the other side with explicit knowledge that more will return for their own civilians, and making plenty of martyrs and public relations grist. That said, since Israel's attempts to wipe out organizations like Hamas or Hisballah have failled repeatedly and miserably in the past, you might think the current government would hesitate to employ an identical failed strategy, now. But then, governments are seldom comprised of intelligent, insightful people who have humanitarian interests at heart.

Lestat · Post by **Lestat** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:16 am

[QUOTE=fable]That said, since Israel's attempts to wipe out organizations like Hamas or Hisballah have failled repeatedly and miserably in the past, you might think the current government would hesitate to employ an identical failed strategy, now. But then, governments are seldom comprised of intelligent, insightful people who have humanitarian interests at heart.[/QUOTE]There is also the fact that the current Israeli PM & MoD have no strong military background (contrary to about all of their predecessors) and are anxious to prove they can play hardball. That this happens on the back of the Palestinian & Lebanese civilian population seems to matter little to them. *deep sigh* And just when there seemed to be some hope of normalisation in Lebanon, a country that has the potetential of becoming an example for the rest of the Middle East. If the US is serious with its project for democracy in the region, it could do worse than to get this situation sorted out...

Hizbullah has calculated well, because the political losers in this are clearly the Lebanese government and the anti-Syrian factions...

expletive expletive expletive

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:17 am

Civilian casulties in a case such as this impossible to avoid.

Hezbollah (and other similar organisations) and supporters hides and operates amongst civilians, making it difficult for Israel military to act withouth endangering and subsequently targeting civilians, whereas Hezbollah intentionally targets civlians in their attacks.

So either way the civilians are caught between the state of Israel and Hezbollah and both their actions against each other.

Chimaera182 · Post by **Chimaera182** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:52 am

[QUOTE=Lestat]There is also the fact that the current Israeli PM & MoD have no strong military background (contrary to about all of their predecessors) and are anxious to prove they can play hardball. That this happens on the back of the Palestinian & Lebanese civilian population seems to matter little to them. *deep sigh* And just when there seemed to be some hope of normalisation in Lebanon, a country that has the potetential of becoming an example for the rest of the Middle East. If the US is serious with its project for democracy in the region, it could do worse than to get this situation sorted out...[/QUOTE]
If I were a cynical person, I would find this rather convenient. If I were a cynical person...

[QUOTE=Xandax]Civilian casulties in a case such as this impossible to avoid.

Hezbollah (and other similar organisations) and supporters hides and operates amongst civilians, making it difficult for Israel military to act withouth endangering and subsequently targeting civilians, whereas Hezbollah intentionally targets civlians in their attacks.

So either way the civilians are caught between the state of Israel and Hezbollah and both their actions against each other.[/QUOTE]
And on top of that, the deaths of Lebanese civilians caught in the cross-fire (due to Hezbollah) are made martyrs. And Hezbollah might (slim but probable chance) start to look better to the Lebanese, looking to them as brave defenders.

TonyMontana1638 · Post by **TonyMontana1638** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:24 pm

[QUOTE=Fiona]@Tony

Noam Chomsky, by Zoltán Gendler Szabó, Dictionary of Modern American Philosophers, 1860-1960

It is curious. I met some Americans while I was camping in the Lake District last year and in the course of conversation one of them told me he had seldom heard of Noam Chomsky until he came to the UK. But here he found a lot of people who were interested in his political ideas and to a lesser extent his linguistics. He is very very famous here, and the fact that he is not apparently famous in his own country in the same way puzzles me

Chomsky is the leading critic of American foreign policy writing today. He is robust and some would say extreme but he is also often misrepresented ( for example most recently in my reading, in Francis Wheen's book "Mumbo Jumbo" ). He is willing to debate with just about anyone and he gives lectures in many places, some quite obscure. He is always interesting. I am perhaps biased because he is left wing and there are few who get a platform now; but he is worth listening to because he argues cogently outside the limits of the "acceptable" spread of opinion which is presented as the full range nowadays.

10 years ago he was interviewed by Andrew Marr, a serous political journalist here, and a transcript is available which gives a flavour of his style.

The Big Idea - Interview with Noam Chomsky[/QUOTE]

Well there's your answer right there.

Fiona · Post by **Fiona** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:41 pm

I was afraid of that

Ashen · Post by **Ashen** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:30 am

I myself was rather intruiged by what would happen once they killed those four UN observers - the thing is we all heard Kofi in Rome saying he accepted the apology of the Israelis and that it was a mistake ... blah blah blah ... but actually yesterday on BBC we saw a Human Rights Watch guy say that the UN actually contacted the Israelis and told them *before* the fatal strike that they were targeting them and the Israelis fired disregarding it. Interesting to see Kofi licking the rear end of his masters while we hear the important bits from the human rights orgs. Oh well, typical.

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:21 am

Interesting to see Kofi licking the rear end of his masters while we hear the important bits from the human rights orgs.

What? You do realize that the Secretary General of the United Nations is traditionally not supposed to take sides on any conflict--and that denouncing Israel would have been seen in some quarters as endorsing the other side? And that despite this, Annan did the unthinkable after the attack of actually calling it during a press conference, "apparently deliberate?" Instead of "licking the rear end of his masters," Annan shocked the Israelis and horrified the American government (who, by the way, hates him because he refuses to sit in their pocket) by making this remarkably forthright statement, and then backing it up. (As reported in UN News: ""But you need to look at the events of yesterday, The shelling of the UN position, which is long-established and clearly marked, started in the morning and went on till after 7:00 p.m., when we lost contact.")

Calling Annan in effect a lackey of anybody is about as likely as calling George Bush "overly flexible," Vladimir Putin "meek and mild," and Tony Blair, "honest and caring." I'm afraid this one is very wide of the mark.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:13 am

Since the incident linked to below is related to this topic, I decided to post it in here...

[url="http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060728.wseattle0728/BNStory/International/home"]Seattle Shooting[/url]

*sighs* What a mess....