A bunch of questions *minor spoilers*

[lessthanjake]

Alright I got a few random questions about KOTOR II.


1. I have never been a Sith Marauder, but I know they have the power Fury. Now I have read that it is supposed to give you 2 extra attacks (just like Wookie Frenzy for Hanharr) but I also read that the power is bugged. Does it give the extra attacks or not?
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2. Why would anyone use the Critical Strike/Sniper Shot feats? Honestly, mathematically there are only a couple isolated instances where it could do more damage than Flurry/Rapid Shot. Let me list these instances.

-when you have a weapon with an 18-20 critical threat range and youve upgraded it to make it keen (itll be 15-20 range then). However, the only weapons with such a critical strike range to my knowledge are the mandalorian ripper, mandalorian, disintigrator, and the charric (notice no melee weapons). Furthermore, its only slightly more damage while still giving you that -5 defense so overall its still not worth it.

-I assume that if you stack up a bunch of upgrades on a weapon that add to the damage done in critical strikes then you can make it worth it (it depends on the weaon though obviously). The only thing is that none of those upgrades are really worth it compared to what straight up damage increasing upgrades do (example: Power Pulsator V will never be better than the Pure Rylith Cell thing even if youve got a weapon with a 15-20 critical strike range).

-If youve got a weapon that is a 17-20 critical threat range (ie. wookie bowcasters) and has a x3 thing in the critical strikes. But there are way better weapons to use than those anyways so youd be wasting your time taking sniper shot for that.

-If you use two separate melee weapons/blasters (note: NOT double bladed weapons) and have master speed on then it is better than flurry by a bit. However, a double bladed lightsaber or melee weapon is always better than two separate weapons (they do more damage and are easier to stack up good upgrades on) so theres really no point in going that route in the first place. Furthermore critical strike still sorta comes out on bottom here because the damage difference is so small and they still have that -5 hit on defense. Let me take a character with two weapons equipped both of which get 10-40 damage and critical strike range of 19-20 x2 (thats pretty typical). In one turn with critical strike you will do an average of 140 damage. Flurry will get on average 137.5. I would take 137.5 damage and no hit to defense over 140 damage but -5 defense.

I cant think of any other instances where it may be better than flurry/rapid shot. So whats the point of it? Well let me rephrase that. I know the point is to give options on feats but whats the point of actually taking that line of feats?
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3. If youve got a guy with extra attacks (from speed or two weapons or something) does power attack/power blast add damage to every attack or just the first? I remember hearing somewhere that it was just the first._______________________________________________________________

4. Is there any reason to take HK-47 or G0-T0 to combat over Mandalore? It seems to me that Mandalore is clearly a better ranged character than either of those. I mean I use HK-47 and G0-T0 just cause I like to fight with all my characters throughout the course of a game but really anything they can do Mandalore can do better.
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5. Do you get more experience points when Kreia is in your party? I seem to remember hearing that a while back but I am not 100% sure. If so how much more?


Thanks in advance to anyone answering these.

[Xandax]

I'll give some input on two of the questions/points.

2) Sniper/Critical has other benefits then mear damage. They have the possibility to stun your opponent which needs to be factored in and which can be quite good.

5) Yes. She has a "Mentor" ability which gives you 3, 5 and 7% extra experience when she reaches levels 1, 7 and 13 respectively.
http://www.gamebanshee.com/starwarskoto ... mentor.php

Not enough worth it to take her along, unless you want her along for other reasons in my view.

[Greg.]

1) Yes, but the extra attacks do not stack with knight speed/master speed. The attacks DO stack with Juyo.

2) You can construct sabers and other weapons so they do 'massive criticals'. Using critical strike can up to triple the odds of a critical strike, whereas master flurry still only adds 1 attack. Bearing in mind that a dual-weilding marauder/weapon master using juyo and fury/master speed gets 5 attacks per round. Do you really need the extra one from flurry, especially when you can have an increased critical hit range?

3) Not sure

4) Different strokes for different folks. HK has some combat advantages (integrated assassin protocols are pretty good). G0-T0 is basically T3-M4 with a few changes - its meant to be used for skills...

5) Yes. I quite like the interfering old hag...

[DesR85]

[QUOTE=Xandax]
Not enough worth it to take her along, unless you want her along for other reasons in my view.[/QUOTE]
Well, she is quite useful in both offensive and defensive powers since she's neutral like Jolee Bindo. Besides, I always used her to unleash powerful dark side powers on enemies.

[lessthanjake]

1) Yes, but the extra attacks do not stack with knight speed/master speed. The attacks DO stack with Juyo.

Alright then with that said I got some other questions about it. Is it like the wookie fury thing where it gets better as your level goes up (the wookie thing doesnt give you extra attacks to begin with)? If it is then what levels does it add the extra attacks? Also, it's not restricted by armor like speed is it?

2) You can construct sabers and other weapons so they do 'massive criticals'. Using critical strike can up to triple the odds of a critical strike, whereas master flurry still only adds 1 attack. Bearing in mind that a dual-weilding marauder/weapon master using juyo and fury/master speed gets 5 attacks per round. Do you really need the extra one from flurry, especially when you can have an increased critical hit range?

Yeah you CAN do massive criticals BUT in general the upgrades that give you straight up damage are better than the massive criticals ones anyways (even if the weapon is keen), so theres really no reason to make a weapon have massive criticals unless thats all you have. With that said, you obviously shouldnt dumb down your weapon just to make critical strike worth it.

And as for having 5 attacks anyways, lets look at this statiscally. If you have two lightsabers, the threat range is then 13-20 x2 instead of 19-20 x2 if youve got master critical strike. Thats an extra 30% per attack. 30% times 5 is 150%. So yes, it IS better than flurry. But as I said before, using two single lightsabers is not very efficient because they do less damage without upgrades and you have to spread your good upgrades between the two. So I would wager that in most situations youd do more damage with a double bladed lightsaber with flurry, master speed, and juyo than two single lightsabers with critical strike, speed, and juyo. And once again the minus 5 defense makes it not worth it to me.

2) Sniper/Critical has other benefits then mear damage. They have the possibility to stun your opponent which needs to be factored in and which can be quite good.

Thats true. However, I sorta think that the fact that even when you get it in the critical strike range you still have to have that completely separate attack roll succeed negates the advantage from getting stun every once and a while. This is especially true since most enemies can go down in one or two hits anyways so stunning them in melee combat isnt all that useful. The ones that dont go down that quickly will make a save against the stun anyways.

[Xandax]

[QUOTE=lessthanjake]<snip>
Thats true. However, I sorta think that the fact that even when you get it in the critical strike range you still have to have that completely separate attack roll succeed negates the advantage from getting stun every once and a while. This is especially true since most enemies can go down in one or two hits anyways so stunning them in melee combat isnt all that useful. The ones that dont go down that quickly will make a save against the stun anyways.[/QUOTE]

In the earlier part of the game few enemeis go down in one of two hits. Maybe for the last parts of the game, but not true for the entier game.
I look at feats as what is usefull overall, not in a given optimal situation based on perhaps the last 10-15% of the game. Critical Strike and Sniper Shot's stun do provide another aspect to the feats outside the sheer damage. But nobody is forcing you to use it, but it is far from unusable.
Personally - I use it with my more defensive characters who don't dual wield and aren't mad meele powerhouses.

[JundlandBanshee]

4. GO-TO has one particular skill that give him an advantage over Mandalore in combat, namely his droid scambler. It can really change the battle when the Sith's war droids suddenly turn on the former masters. Also his stealth ability can help in the pre-battle preparations.

[lessthanjake]

In the earlier part of the game few enemeis go down in one of two hits. Maybe for the last parts of the game, but not true for the entier game.

There are really only two examples of enemies early on in the game maybe taking more than 2 hits. *spoilers* The sith assassins on Peragus and the mercenaries on Telos *spoilers* And after Telos everything but a select few probably will go down in one hit and definately in two hits. The thing is that I wouldnt say that critical strike is the best way to deal with those two enemies I just mentioned. Let me explain. Early on in the game you arent gonna have 4-6 attacks per round like you will at the end. You will have a lot less attacks per round. The effectiveness of CS in comparison to flurry gets better as you have more and more attacks (from speed and juyo). This is obviously because having an extra attack means more when you have less attacks to work with. Simply put, having 2 attacks instead of 1 increases your damage by a greater percent than having 6 instead of 5. So, CS may get the added bonus of that stun early on, but flurrys value also peaks at the beginning of the game. Me, i'd go with flurry early.

I look at feats as what is usefull overall, not in a given optimal situation based on perhaps the last 10-15% of the game. Critical Strike and Sniper Shot's stun do provide another aspect to the feats outside the sheer damage. But nobody is forcing you to use it, but it is far from unusable.
Personally - I use it with my more defensive characters who don't dual wield and aren't mad meele powerhouses.

I look at the game like that too. In fact, since the beginning of the game is kinda tedious after playing it many many times, I actually want someone who can power his/her way through those early stages very quickly just as much as I want someone who will be a monster at the end.

You use CS for defensive characters who dont dual wield eh? For defensive characters you use a feat that gives you minus 5 defense? And for characters using only a single attack you forego a feat that could double your attack output (flurry)? Well to each his own I guess, but I wouldnt do it that way.

4. GO-TO has one particular skill that give him an advantage over Mandalore in combat, namely his droid scambler. It can really change the battle when the Sith's war droids suddenly turn on the former masters. Also his stealth ability can help in the pre-battle preparations.

Ok yeah, that IS kinda nifty. Ive never really used droid scrambler all that much but now youve inspired me to try using stealth with GO-TO, droid scramble an enemy droid, then charge against my weakened opponents. If only this game were harder though, where doing something strategic like that would actually make a difference.___________________________________________________________

Anyways I answered my extra questions regarding fury the easy way, actually seeing for myself . I found out that it can be used with armor, and you get a different level of it at levels 1, 5, and 9 of your time as a Sith Marauder. Because of that, I have come to the conclusion that it is probably the best buffing power in the game, if not the best power period.

[Xandax]

There are really only two examples of enemies early on in the game maybe taking more than 2 hits. *spoilers* The sith assassins on Peragus and the mercenaries on Telos *spoilers* And after Telos everything but a select few probably will go down in one hit and definately in two hits. The thing is that I wouldnt say that critical strike is the best way to deal with those two enemies I just mentioned. Let me explain. Early on in the game you arent gonna have 4-6 attacks per round like you will at the end. You will have a lot less attacks per round. The effectiveness of CS in comparison to flurry gets better as you have more and more attacks (from speed and juyo). This is obviously because having an extra attack means more when you have less attacks to work with. Simply put, having 2 attacks instead of 1 increases your damage by a greater percent than having 6 instead of 5. So, CS may get the added bonus of that stun early on, but flurrys value also peaks at the beginning of the game. Me, i'd go with flurry early.
<snip>

Well - it is far from my experience that "everything after telos" goes down in one or two hits. Perhaps with a pure meele specced character, but that is also what I rarely spec. Far from all my characters are specced from a meele damage perspective and then it doesn't really matter if one power-house specced character can meele things down faster with flurry then with critical strike if the characters I play are no where near that strong in meele and can't meele everything in "one deffinate two" hits.
The effectiveness of CS is that it can stun characters and thus you avoid taking hits from that character. For flurry to be as effective as you make it appear, you need to spec your character for that. CS is effective on its own and you don't need to spec for it, and you don't need to take it to max, you can have it at is base and it can and will still stun opponents. And that aspect has saved me in many hard fights with non-meele orientated characters.

I look at the game like that too. In fact, since the beginning of the game is kinda tedious after playing it many many times, I actually want someone who can power his/her way through those early stages very quickly just as much as I want someone who will be a monster at the end.

I don't "power through" the early stages. They are as much a part of the game as the last and infact much more enjoyable in my book because of the relative weakness of your character and thus the more tactical elements in the fights, then just master speed up to an enemy and master flurry with your end-game items.

You use CS for defensive characters who dont dual wield eh? For defensive characters you use a feat that gives you minus 5 defense? And for characters using only a single attack you forego a feat that could double your attack output (flurry)? Well to each his own I guess, but I wouldnt do it that way.

If your meele damage is lowish then the extra attack from flurry means little compard to the tactical advantage of not having your enemy hitting you.
Joined with a lowish amount of hitpoints, then avoiding getting hit by having a stunned opponent is more usefull.


Further more you compare the two "attacks" from the same meele-perspective - namely damage from a meelefighter.
A critical striker is not the one going up toe to toe with your enemy. You have meatshields for that meaning your NPCs take the brunt of the combat while you can then strike with lesser chance of getting hit back. As said, there is more to this game then just plain up straight "masterspeed/masterflurry" meele, and it is in thoese aspects that feats like Critical Strike and equivivalent shot comes into play. It isn't for the meele damage you use thoese feats.

[lessthanjake]

Well - it is far from my experience that "everything after telos" goes down in one or two hits. Perhaps with a pure meele specced character, but that is also what I rarely spec.

Well neither do I. Maybe I am just thinking everything goes down that quickly cause the game ive been on for a while now is a totally melee focused guardian/sith marauder who DOES take everything down that quickly. My game before that was an experiment in having a blaster-only player character (worked out pretty well btw, it's a nice change) and before that I was a Sith Lord. So its actually been a while since ive done a character that I actually used for melee combat that wasnt totally melee specialized. I dont really remember how well they take stuff down. At the same time though, to me you are taking a weakened character if you are using it for melee a lot when its not very good at it.

However, definately by the time you are into your second world after Telos you should take stuff down in one or two hits because in my experience by that time youll be able to get the best lightsaber upgrades.

By the way, just out of curiosity what do you specialize in if its rarely melee? I mean you can only be a sith lord and force storm everyone a couple games before it gets boring. I am looking for something kinda interesting to do. Got anything?

I don't "power through" the early stages. They are as much a part of the game as the last and infact much more enjoyable in my book because of the relative weakness of your character and thus the more tactical elements in the fights, then just master speed up to an enemy and master flurry with your end-game items.

Well for some reason I just dislike Peragus and Telos isnt my favorite, mainly I guess cause I feel like I am just doing fetch quests over and over again. I think I also dont like how the game is very linear until you get past Telos. For the same reason I didnt really like Taris too much in Kotor 1 either.

If your meele damage is lowish then the extra attack from flurry means little compard to the tactical advantage of not having your enemy hitting you.
Joined with a lowish amount of hitpoints, then avoiding getting hit by having a stunned opponent is more usefull.

But really how often do you get the stun? Its a DC of your level plus your strength modifier. If you arent doing much melee damage as you said, then your strength modifier will probably be 1 or 2. Your level is at most like 12 when you leave Telos but at earlier times lets say its like 9. That means they need to make a save at DC10 or DC11. I dont know the fortitude saves of the enemy guys but even if its something not so great like 6 then you wont be getting stuns too often. I got a question though. From the wording of it, I cant tell whether the stun only can happen on an actual critical hit or if it can happen on any hit. Which is it? Cause that makes a big difference.

Further more you compare the two "attacks" from the same meele-perspective - namely damage from a meelefighter.
A critical striker is not the one going up toe to toe with your enemy. You have meatshields for that meaning your NPCs take the brunt of the combat while you can then strike with lesser chance of getting hit back. As said, there is more to this game then just plain up straight "masterspeed/masterflurry" meele, and it is in thoese aspects that feats like Critical Strike and equivivalent shot comes into play. It isn't for the meele damage you use thoese feats.
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It isnt for melee damage that you use those feats??? It IS a melee feat! You SHOULD be using it for damage. I realize that you can also use it for the stun but to me it is still a weak feat and you dont convince me otherwise when you say you need a meatshield of NPCs with it.

[Xandax]

<snip>
By the way, just out of curiosity what do you specialize in if its rarely melee? I mean you can only be a sith lord and force storm everyone a couple games before it gets boring. I am looking for something kinda interesting to do. Got anything?

I never play darkside, so the majority of my games are either skill point focused or force point focused. I did have a light side Jedi Master who went around force storming everything, and it was terrible easy yes.

But really how often do you get the stun? Its a DC of your level plus your strength modifier. If you arent doing much melee damage as you said, then your strength modifier will probably be 1 or 2. Your level is at most like 12 when you leave Telos but at earlier times lets say its like 9. That means they need to make a save at DC10 or DC11. I dont know the fortitude saves of the enemy guys but even if its something not so great like 6 then you wont be getting stuns too often. I got a question though. From the wording of it, I cant tell whether the stun only can happen on an actual critical hit or if it can happen on any hit. Which is it? Cause that makes a big difference.

From actual playing, I do get the stun quite a lot, and it doesn't only come from critical hits as far as I can see. It seems to appear from any hit which do "damage", even if that damage is absorbed by shields. Bug or not I don't know.

It isnt for melee damage that you use those feats??? It IS a melee feat! You SHOULD be using it for damage. I realize that you can also use it for the stun but to me it is still a weak feat and you dont convince me otherwise when you say you need a meatshield of NPCs with it.

Of course it is a meele feat, but if meele damage is your desire, then naturally - as said - other feats are better for the pure damage potential. As I said - I use this feat especially with characters who are not specced to be front-figthers or toe-to-toe meele fighters, where the meele damage output per swing is limited. So it is better to try and stay alive for longer and avoid getting hit, and a stunned opponent is good for that - even with the -5 defense penalty.
Besides - I'm not out to try and convince you. But you posted a question and concluded that it would never be used because flurry always did more damage, and I then state - from my playing - that damage isn't everything or the only factor. Continue to use your speed/flurry tactic for all I care, but CS is far from useless even if you do less damage with it then you would meele specced with flurry.

[lessthanjake]

Well my question to you is simply this: What type of character do you have that you are using melee feats when the character isnt very good at it in the first place? I mean a consular can mostly get by with enough force points to not be using melee except maybe at the very beginning in Peragus. And sentinels and guardians are pretty good in melee anyways. The only thing I can think is that you are using light Jedi Masters whose main powers are buffing himself and others and not offensive. But even then, if you want to stun someone why not use stasis? Yeah it only works on one guy until you hit level 15 but then again so does CS and stasis will get the stun A LOT more.

[Xandax]

[QUOTE=lessthanjake]Well my question to you is simply this: What type of character do you have that you are using melee feats when the character isnt very good at it in the first place? I mean a consular can mostly get by with enough force points to not be using melee except maybe at the very beginning in Peragus. And sentinels and guardians are pretty good in melee anyways. The only thing I can think is that you are using light Jedi Masters whose main powers are buffing himself and others and not offensive. But even then, if you want to stun someone why not use stasis? Yeah it only works on one guy until you hit level 15 but then again so does CS and stasis will get the stun A LOT more.[/QUOTE]

It is for consulars etc, and yes - I do use stunning force powers as well, and then CS on them can extend the stun. Oh, and you often have to hit enemies to kill them as well. Stasis do no damage. Of course, I could just stand back and let the NPCs kill off enemies, but when I can continue to stun with CS then why should I? And you don't always have NPCs with you.

However, again you keep talking the last 15-25% or so of the game where the consular is powerfull enough to get by on pure force powers, but CS is usefull the beginning 75-85% as well. It takes time to get to that level of power.

In comparison, I just finished yet another KOTOR1 game, where CS was my main guys only offensive meele feat (used), and it worked very nice. And I've used it often in KOTOR2 as well.

If you don't want to use it, then don't. But saying it is useless compared to flurry is a generalization you just can't do when for instance I find it very usefull for (some of) my characters, and I have used it (often) and have experiences with it...have you? .
And I'm not saying it has the same damage-output as flurry and it isn't meant to have that, however - you asked why people would use it, and people use it because damage-output isn't neasecarily the only factor, but because it has a usefull stun effect as well.

I think this discussion has run in circles enough now, though. I use CS (and the equvivalent for blasters) often, and I find it usefull.

[lessthanjake]

It is for consulars etc, and yes - I do use stunning force powers as well, and then CS on them can extend the stun. Oh, and you often have to hit enemies to kill them as well.

You DO have to kill them, but flurry is better at that.

In comparison, I just finished yet another KOTOR1 game, where CS was my main guys only offensive meele feat (used), and it worked very nice.

KOTOR 1 is slightly different. You spend much much more time in the levels 1-8 part of the game where as youve pointed out, that stun can make a difference. Its also a bit harder of a game in general so everything isnt going down quite as quickly.