I've been messing around with a Wizard Slayer for a few days, but felt something was missing. I did the heavy-2 handed sword thing, at at level 15 or so had 2 attacks a round, and did about 22 damage on average with Lilcator or the sword of chaos. That's good, but...
Then I did a SK experiment, changed him into a dual-wielder using longswords, and guess what. It isn't just that he is insanely more effective. Its that there is NO DOWN SIDE. Nothing. 2-handed specialization as implemented (for fighters) seems to be a total bust. Except for the holy avenger sword -- that makes it OK for the paladin class. Everyone else is out of luck.
I don't think this is a power-gaming issue as much as a balance issue.
This is my thinking. (SOA limited).
Issues:
1) 2-handed weapons are notoriously weak with regards to special abilities. Compare Daystar, Celestial Fury, even Adjatha the Drinker to any 2-handed weapon besides Carsymor. There is no comparison. Only special classes get the decent 2-handed weapons (Paladins, Mages).
2) 2-handed weapons number of attacks suck. I was still getting 2 attacks/round at level 15. Dual wield I was getting 4. Dual wield with belm and I was getting 9/2 rounds. And I counted during combat, I really WAS getting them
3) Two-handed swords do base 1-10 or 1-12. Katanas do 1-10. Huh? There is no difference. Even a long sword does 1-8, doing 2 more (possibly) aint' enough.
4) You lose AC with no possible gain. There are plenty of 1-handed weapons that give AC bonus, DZerth, Scimitar Defender, etc. etc. There are NO decent 2-handed weapons that give an AC bonus for fighters. Staff of Curing don't count.
5) Single-handed weapons do more damage by the end of the game. CromF with 25 str. is unstoppable. Daystar vs. undead. Black Razer, period. Mace of Disruption vs. undead. Etc. 2-handed weapons just lose out. Silver Sword is the only possible exception.
Proposed fixes:
A) Honestly people, a 2-handed swords and stuff like that need to do significantly more damage than a katana. Base damage 2d6 minimum, more like 2d8.
B) 2-handed sword ability upgrades. Where is the undead-killer for 2-handed weapons? What about a 2-handed sword that does a save vs. upon a hit, or lots of elemental damage (halbreds are somewhat exempted, they do great elemental). Something better than that Joril's dagger thing. Until you get the silver sword it's a LONG haul. How about, gasp, a 2-handed weapon that has TWO special abilities? Or gives +1 to AC?
C) More attacks a round. Allow 4/round with 2-handed weapons for a fighter that's maxxed out on it. Presently, I don't think this is possible. Am I wrong?
D) Flat out more damage. The impaler spear is the way to do. More 2-handed weapons needs to have things like this, +10 damage. What about a 2-handed sword +3 that does +8 damage and +1 acid? Or something like that? Compared with Celestial Fury it's still quite lame. A weapon granting 23 str? Something fun like that.
Any other suggestions? Am I just flat out wrong, can somebody argue that 2-handed weapons are actually well-balanced compared with dual-wielding? (or even single with a great shield?)
What would it take to make 2-handed weapons respectable?
I agree completely with you man, Bioware seem to have neglected the two-handed sword, especially when they put the katana in. There is NO sw2h that can stand up against Celestial Fury, except maybe Carsomyr. Oh, and Gram is quite nice with the level drain. They have lavished all the really top abilities on 1h weapons. I think 2d8 would be good, at the risk of making it too powerful. Mages and stuff don't have that many hitpoints!
The best combination of 1h swords IMHO is Foebane +5 and Blackrazor. You can end a fight toe-to-toe with a dragon with more HP than you started out with, because Foebane does Larlochs with each hit, no save. Blackrazor has the 15% to make your guy a superman, complete with red briefs, on each hit. Try that with your WS. Who needs rings of Gaxx?
The best combination of 1h swords IMHO is Foebane +5 and Blackrazor. You can end a fight toe-to-toe with a dragon with more HP than you started out with, because Foebane does Larlochs with each hit, no save. Blackrazor has the 15% to make your guy a superman, complete with red briefs, on each hit. Try that with your WS. Who needs rings of Gaxx?
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I agree, for the most part, with your excellent analysis two. I would like to add, however, that you shouldn't ignore two things:
1. There are some excellent spears and halberds out there. While these still don't achieve the power of dual wielding katanas or long swords, they can sometimes be better than two-handed swords. You mentioned the impaler, but what I think is even better is Ixil's Spike (+6), which has the ability to pin an oponent for 3 rounds with an additional 1d6+5 damage per round. I give this spear to Mazzy and she routinely pins opponents (which means that they don't swing back).
2. Two-handed weapons allow you to put a missile weapon (long, short or crossbow, throwing dagger, dart, sling) in one of your quick-item slots while dual wielding does not. Even though you can always go to the inventory screen and unequip your off-hand weapon to equip a missile weapon, in practice I find this annoying and sometimes problematic (e.g. taking Drak out of your off hand loses spells). This is a minor point, however, but with missile-heavy chars like Mazzy it's significant (dual wielding short swords for her is inferior to mastering the spear).
1. There are some excellent spears and halberds out there. While these still don't achieve the power of dual wielding katanas or long swords, they can sometimes be better than two-handed swords. You mentioned the impaler, but what I think is even better is Ixil's Spike (+6), which has the ability to pin an oponent for 3 rounds with an additional 1d6+5 damage per round. I give this spear to Mazzy and she routinely pins opponents (which means that they don't swing back).
2. Two-handed weapons allow you to put a missile weapon (long, short or crossbow, throwing dagger, dart, sling) in one of your quick-item slots while dual wielding does not. Even though you can always go to the inventory screen and unequip your off-hand weapon to equip a missile weapon, in practice I find this annoying and sometimes problematic (e.g. taking Drak out of your off hand loses spells). This is a minor point, however, but with missile-heavy chars like Mazzy it's significant (dual wielding short swords for her is inferior to mastering the spear).
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I agree that two handed swords should have a much higher base damage than long swords. I'd put it around 1d12, like Lilicor and the Warblade.
I'd leave the Katana at 1d10 when used one-handed. At least 1d12 when weilded with two hands. Historically, the katana is the most devestating sword there is. Records show that some examples from the master sword makers could cut through 5 or more convicts in one blow!
This is something that interests me: there are two swords in this game that were designed to be used either one- or two- handed, the katana and the bastard sword. In PnP, the bastard sword used to do 2d4 one-handed and, I think, 1d10 two-handed. I have never played 3rd edition rules, so it may have changed. How hard would it have been to implement the 1 or 2 handed characteristics in this game? Already, you can right click on certain axes to choose missile or melee use.
I'd leave the Katana at 1d10 when used one-handed. At least 1d12 when weilded with two hands. Historically, the katana is the most devestating sword there is. Records show that some examples from the master sword makers could cut through 5 or more convicts in one blow!
This is something that interests me: there are two swords in this game that were designed to be used either one- or two- handed, the katana and the bastard sword. In PnP, the bastard sword used to do 2d4 one-handed and, I think, 1d10 two-handed. I have never played 3rd edition rules, so it may have changed. How hard would it have been to implement the 1 or 2 handed characteristics in this game? Already, you can right click on certain axes to choose missile or melee use.
Absolutely, Underdog! Especially for Paladins. A Paladin should carry Lilacor because it symbolizes the attainment of a worthy goal. And he should persevere, scorning the easy kill.
Is dual weilding anything but axes a little too sophisticated for a Barbarian?
Shouldn't a Halfling use short swords?
The persona of my character dictates the weapon he carries much more than the damage he can inflict with uber weapons.
Of course, I have had a few PCs bite the dust because the concept was cool, but the reality SUCKED!
Is dual weilding anything but axes a little too sophisticated for a Barbarian?
Shouldn't a Halfling use short swords?
The persona of my character dictates the weapon he carries much more than the damage he can inflict with uber weapons.
Of course, I have had a few PCs bite the dust because the concept was cool, but the reality SUCKED!
As I said, it's not about power-gaming. Obviously dual-wield wins that battle every time.
It's a question of balance. BGII was designed by developers who did overall a good job balancing the classes/weapons. However, a few things seem out of kilter, such as the 2-handed weapon skill (and the 2-handed weapons themselves).
You can win the game dual-wielding daggers, and of course the 2-handed weapons available are powerful enough as well. But compared with the 1-handed ones, there is a disparity.
Perhaps the 1-handed ones should be dropped down in power instead of 2-handed ones being made more powerful?
It's great to role-play whatever weapon you like, but it would be even greater if every weapon choice was closely balanced.
For example there are plenty of great clubs, katanas, scimitars, short swords, even daggers around. Woe to he that picks ninja-to, however. Or morning star (there is only one decent one I think). It would be great if these obscure weapon classes had more options, were better balanced compared to the rest.
Same with 2-handed swords and their power. It seems lame that the ultimate power sword doesn't stack up to a hammer, or katana, or longsword.
It's a question of balance. BGII was designed by developers who did overall a good job balancing the classes/weapons. However, a few things seem out of kilter, such as the 2-handed weapon skill (and the 2-handed weapons themselves).
You can win the game dual-wielding daggers, and of course the 2-handed weapons available are powerful enough as well. But compared with the 1-handed ones, there is a disparity.
Perhaps the 1-handed ones should be dropped down in power instead of 2-handed ones being made more powerful?
It's great to role-play whatever weapon you like, but it would be even greater if every weapon choice was closely balanced.
For example there are plenty of great clubs, katanas, scimitars, short swords, even daggers around. Woe to he that picks ninja-to, however. Or morning star (there is only one decent one I think). It would be great if these obscure weapon classes had more options, were better balanced compared to the rest.
Same with 2-handed swords and their power. It seems lame that the ultimate power sword doesn't stack up to a hammer, or katana, or longsword.
I have to dissagree , with boots of speed you can get up to 3 att/round with a 2 hander (before patch , not sure what it is now). Also with 2 points in the 2handed skill you get crits on 19 or 20 , so you can have a bigger damageing weapon doing 3 att a round with a higher chance of doing criticals. I would argue that the damage is quite similar.
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-Lykwid
Couple of points...
1: Two-handers have more reach. You can abuse this on enemies that cannot fit through doors.
2: This is D&D. That's the way the game works, and the developers have IMHO done a good job in sticking to that. Compare two vanilla longswords +5 to one two-handed sword +5. The two longswords are twice as hard to enchant, so should give (about) twice the reward.
3: Historically, two-handers bite. No army has ever used them with the exception of half-crazed Scots. The things are good only for bashing people in full plate until they fall over. And executions. And parades.
1: Two-handers have more reach. You can abuse this on enemies that cannot fit through doors.
2: This is D&D. That's the way the game works, and the developers have IMHO done a good job in sticking to that. Compare two vanilla longswords +5 to one two-handed sword +5. The two longswords are twice as hard to enchant, so should give (about) twice the reward.
3: Historically, two-handers bite. No army has ever used them with the exception of half-crazed Scots. The things are good only for bashing people in full plate until they fall over. And executions. And parades.
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Silvanerian
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In my expierince, a character wielding a two-handed weapon deals out the same amount (or more!) than a dual-wielding character.
I suppose that becuase I never use celestial fury or those kind of weapons, as I'm never able to come up with a good roleplaying reason to wield them.
A katana? Unless I play a Yoshimo kind of person, how would my character ever even consider using such a weapon.
About balance: I agree with two, but the idea of toning down the 1-handers apply better than just pumping up the rest. With all those super extra abilities, it doesn't really matter what kind of weapon you use.
Now, I think it would be much better if the over-powered weapons were available to you later in the game.
For instance: The great axes, the C-F and those shouldn't have been made available untill after the underdark.
At that time you get for instance the Silver sword - that would make more sence to me.
About the roleplaying: In my games, I only use a two-handed sword if my PC is strong.
1d10 or 1d12 + exceptional str is far better than a dualwielding PC with <16 str. damage wise. The "problem" is, that everybody gets the 19-str belt ASAP and with that kind of equipment it doesn't really matter in use a long sword or a two-handed sword.
Hitting for around 20 damage with a long sword doesn't quite fit into my perceptance of roleplaying.
But then again, I've completted this game quite some times now, so it would be boring if I don't "restrict" myself a little.
-Silvanerian
I suppose that becuase I never use celestial fury or those kind of weapons, as I'm never able to come up with a good roleplaying reason to wield them.
A katana? Unless I play a Yoshimo kind of person, how would my character ever even consider using such a weapon.
About balance: I agree with two, but the idea of toning down the 1-handers apply better than just pumping up the rest. With all those super extra abilities, it doesn't really matter what kind of weapon you use.
Now, I think it would be much better if the over-powered weapons were available to you later in the game.
For instance: The great axes, the C-F and those shouldn't have been made available untill after the underdark.
At that time you get for instance the Silver sword - that would make more sence to me.
About the roleplaying: In my games, I only use a two-handed sword if my PC is strong.
1d10 or 1d12 + exceptional str is far better than a dualwielding PC with <16 str. damage wise. The "problem" is, that everybody gets the 19-str belt ASAP and with that kind of equipment it doesn't really matter in use a long sword or a two-handed sword.
Hitting for around 20 damage with a long sword doesn't quite fit into my perceptance of roleplaying.
But then again, I've completted this game quite some times now, so it would be boring if I don't "restrict" myself a little.
-Silvanerian
Qualis Artefix Pereo
I think the Bioware guys have the same feeling as me - two-handed weapons are for lowly foot-soldiers(just look at the Amnish guards). We big heros don't like wielding such things, so they make two-handed weapons in BG2 suck.
To be serious, there are many nice two-handed swords even in SoA, Minsc in my party always carries at least 4 of them
To be serious, there are many nice two-handed swords even in SoA, Minsc in my party always carries at least 4 of them
I'm not so strictly lawful neutral
now.
now.
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UserUnfriendly
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The way I think of it is this.
Typical adventureer pops into ribals...
I Need a weapon to slay dragons with!
Ribald sells him a th sword or halberd.
Its one thing to realize two handed weapons have no place on the battle field, since you get really tired swinging that brute in a 2-8 hour battle. But if you were human and about to face a big honking monster, wouldn't you get a weapon that looks like it will do the most damage? Besides, there are some nice two handed weapons in watchers keep and TOB.
The best sword in the game according to a lot of people is soul reaver, with its ability to deliver penalties to enemy thalco, also, the new special ability, greater whrilwind, is designed for attacks with vorpal weapons.
Typical adventureer pops into ribals...
I Need a weapon to slay dragons with!
Ribald sells him a th sword or halberd.
Its one thing to realize two handed weapons have no place on the battle field, since you get really tired swinging that brute in a 2-8 hour battle. But if you were human and about to face a big honking monster, wouldn't you get a weapon that looks like it will do the most damage? Besides, there are some nice two handed weapons in watchers keep and TOB.
The best sword in the game according to a lot of people is soul reaver, with its ability to deliver penalties to enemy thalco, also, the new special ability, greater whrilwind, is designed for attacks with vorpal weapons.
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Muwahahahahhahahha!!!
A bit off topic:
Historically, two handed swords were used by ... "barbarian" nations, (germanic, celtic, scottish, etc..) because their armies did not employ the fixed, rigid, chess-like formations used by the more "civilized", greek/roman influenced nations.
Two handed swords (over 4 ft long) were used to break apart enemy spear and pike formations, using powerful, wide, massive swings.
Two handed swords were not effective as a dueling weapon, because they were too heavy and too slow.
The Japanese also had a variation of the two handed longsword (no-dachi, looks like a massive katana), and were employed in a similar fashion as their European counterparts
[ 08-24-2001: Message edited by: Fedaykin ]
Historically, two handed swords were used by ... "barbarian" nations, (germanic, celtic, scottish, etc..) because their armies did not employ the fixed, rigid, chess-like formations used by the more "civilized", greek/roman influenced nations.
Two handed swords (over 4 ft long) were used to break apart enemy spear and pike formations, using powerful, wide, massive swings.
Two handed swords were not effective as a dueling weapon, because they were too heavy and too slow.
The Japanese also had a variation of the two handed longsword (no-dachi, looks like a massive katana), and were employed in a similar fashion as their European counterparts
[ 08-24-2001: Message edited by: Fedaykin ]
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UserUnfriendly
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Ever play shogun?
The No dachi infantry rock hard, since you need mountain country as your starting province to get the good ones, but hey attack light infantry really hard, and die like flies against calvary.
Sorry, off topic. But this is my point, if you are going to fight big bad beasties, you carry around the nastiest, most effective weapon you can find, since you are not going to be continuously swinging it in battle, but just until you get close enough to that big troll and whack! Any weapon you can fully use both arms strngth and with wieght to add kinetic energy to the blow makes more sense when you monster whomp. Besides, maybe in faerun two handed swords and halberds were invented not because of taking out armored heavy calvery, but to maximize the effect of potions of str, since adventuring with a broad sword is ok, but s potion will make both your arms strong so for those who are offensively minded, best defense is dead orc theory of combat, the idea was to inflict as much damage aas quick as you can.
The No dachi infantry rock hard, since you need mountain country as your starting province to get the good ones, but hey attack light infantry really hard, and die like flies against calvary.
Sorry, off topic. But this is my point, if you are going to fight big bad beasties, you carry around the nastiest, most effective weapon you can find, since you are not going to be continuously swinging it in battle, but just until you get close enough to that big troll and whack! Any weapon you can fully use both arms strngth and with wieght to add kinetic energy to the blow makes more sense when you monster whomp. Besides, maybe in faerun two handed swords and halberds were invented not because of taking out armored heavy calvery, but to maximize the effect of potions of str, since adventuring with a broad sword is ok, but s potion will make both your arms strong so for those who are offensively minded, best defense is dead orc theory of combat, the idea was to inflict as much damage aas quick as you can.
They call me Darth...
Darth Gizka!
Muwahahahahhahahha!!!
Darth Gizka!
Muwahahahahhahahha!!!
Historically, 2-handed swords and halberds were used by militia and massed infantry formations. In a world dominated by heavy shock cavalry tactics, nothing dissuades a mounted charge like a bristling wall of halberds or pikes. Equally, the 2-handed sword was designed to un-horse heavily armoured cavalrymen. Once off the horse, carrying that full-platemail would quickly exhaust the combatant, leaving them vulnerable to daggers, drowning, heat etc.
Whilst the idea of swinging mammoth weapons to take down huge monsters is a neat one - its obviously fantasy based in reality. I can't imagine anything more impractical than one man with a halberd trying to stick a dragon. 2-handed swords allow for no finesses. Its basically a case of swinging the thing in a figure of 8 (they're bloody heavy) and anything that's stupid enough to get close...
Whilst the idea of swinging mammoth weapons to take down huge monsters is a neat one - its obviously fantasy based in reality. I can't imagine anything more impractical than one man with a halberd trying to stick a dragon. 2-handed swords allow for no finesses. Its basically a case of swinging the thing in a figure of 8 (they're bloody heavy) and anything that's stupid enough to get close...
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You know, if ya really wanted to be realistic, the best way to take down a dragon would be to use pike and shield block formations. Shield men with water soaked leather greatshields, and pike men, to keep the dragon off close combat. heavy crossbows for maximum projectile firepower, and you could take out the flying tank that a dragon is.
They call me Darth...
Darth Gizka!
Muwahahahahhahahha!!!
Darth Gizka!
Muwahahahahhahahha!!!
That is the sort of thing that would be done in a PnP RPG, that can't be duplicated in a CRPG.
A Paladin or hero galvanizes the local peasants into action - defending their homes with simple weapons: polearms, wooden shields and leather arour. Where 1-6 heroes would have a tough time defeating a dragon, a small army could pepper it with crossbow bolts and skewer it with spears.
Full plate armour would be about as useful as a vindaloo oven in that sort of fight.
A Paladin or hero galvanizes the local peasants into action - defending their homes with simple weapons: polearms, wooden shields and leather arour. Where 1-6 heroes would have a tough time defeating a dragon, a small army could pepper it with crossbow bolts and skewer it with spears.
Full plate armour would be about as useful as a vindaloo oven in that sort of fight.
"Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his pants for his friends."
Enchantress is my Goddess.
Few survive in the Heart of Fury...
Gamebanshee: [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/"]Make your gaming scream![/url]
Enchantress is my Goddess.
Few survive in the Heart of Fury...
Gamebanshee: [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/"]Make your gaming scream![/url]