Will this party work or be too hard?

Boozin Bendank · Post by **Boozin Bendank** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:14 pm

Hello all, I'm just recently playing BG2 again after taking 3-4 years off.... I wasn't too serious the first time, and didn't make it very far (also due to my horrible computer at the time).

I'm playing it again from the start and I'm currently in chapter 2 trying to do most of the subquests before I go get Iomen. My characters right now are:

1. Me - Wizard Slayer
2. Keldorn
3. Minsc
4. Yoshimo (to be switched with Iomen when I get to spellhold)
5. Jaheira
6. Aerie

My question is, will this be a well rounded party? I've been leaning towards picking up Edwin due to his superior magic, but is he necessary? Are Iomen and Aerie good enough magically together (as opposed to having Edwin)? And are Jaheira and Aerie good enough to hold the clerical aspects?

From what I'm reading I really would like to have edwin, but then I think I would have to change a couple people in my party...

Don't worry about spoiling anything for me, I'm just trying to find a group closest to my current line-up that won't be TOO tough to get through the game... (I like a challenge, but I mean I don't want to have to rest and bring back to life the fallen heroes after every battle is all....)

Thanks for any help or suggestions!

cheers!

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:13 pm

I'd think it looks like a pretty "standard"/allround party, so you should not have many more troubles in the game.

Although the Wizard Slayer can be a difficult class to play in the early parts of the game.

Ian Kognitow · Post by **Ian Kognitow** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 6:08 am

I agree that it's pretty much the standard 'good' party there. You probably won't have a lot of luck adding Edwin as he'll most likely leave or get in conflicts with your party, particularly if you get high reputation. If you're mainly concerned about pure balance, I'd say to dump Yoshimo and pick up Jan (later dumping Keldorn or Minsc for Imoen). He's the only real thief among the NPCs (not including Yoshimo) and also gives additional mage power. Like Aerie, his multi-class gets incredibly powerful as he attains higher levels. Alternatively, Haer'dalis would also be a good option, also giving mage support, and generally he makes the whole party overpowered with his potential HLAs.

If you *really* want Edwin without going the full evil party route (Edwin, Viconia, Korgan), you could go with something like: PC Wizard Slayer, Minsc, Edwin, Jaheira, Jan, Haer'Dalis/Imoen. That would have you pretty well covered and more or less neutrally aligned, though I personally find Aerie more worth it than Edwin in the long run. Whatever extra power Edwin gets from his extra spells is easily offset by Aerie's ability to put both mage and cleric spells in triggers/contingencies.

In any case, no, you won't have a problem being too weak.

Chippox of Doom · Post by **Chippox of Doom** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 6:14 am

Ive played the exact party, very fun.

If any, its a bit tough untill Aerie gets some leveles as a Mage, after that its pretty much straight forward.

mr_sir · Post by **mr_sir** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 6:25 am

I love having Aerie as my main spell caster, combined with Imoen. Aerie becomes really powerful after a few levels, and Imoen is a nice little thief and makes a really good mage.

I've used almost that party, but with a Paladin as my PC and Anomen instead of Minsc and it worked really well

Ian Kognitow · Post by **Ian Kognitow** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 6:41 am

mr_sir wrote:I love having Aerie as my main spell caster, combined with Imoen. Aerie becomes really powerful after a few levels, and Imoen is a nice little thief and makes a really good mage.

Hence another reason why Jan is a great NPC: offers the extra mage support for Aerie's formative weeks and until Imoen's liberation, and is also a little thief who gets even more powerfully skilled throughout the game. With UAI he's even a worthwhile tank.

Boozin Bendank · Post by **Boozin Bendank** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:40 am

Hey, Thanks everyone for the pointers! Very helpful...

cheers
Boozin Bendank

rbeverjr · Post by **rbeverjr** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:04 am

An expert can succeed in the game with any team. The team you listed is a decent team.

You don't have to choose Edwin, but he is the most powerful arcane caster. I'd probably choose him over the mod NPC mages like Tashia too. However, it's less hassle if you use the happy patch when using a team with evil and good characters. The patch is found here: Happy Script

I disagree with Ian concerning the relative power of Aerie and Edwin. I have played numerous times with both. I am familiar with the cheese. While Aerie can use some stinking cheese in ToB, it's always been the high level arcanes that rule this game, and Aerie's arcane power is less than Edwin's.

CFM · Post by **CFM** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:07 pm

All of the NPC's will become powerhouses after not too long.

@Boozin Bendank- My first & only time through, I played the same group, but my main dude was a Priest of Lathander instead of a Wizard Slayer. I'm an average player at best, and don't use any cheesy tactics, and I was fine.

I thought Aerie complimented Jaheira & Imoen VERY well. In fact, Aerie compliments herself very well. She used the lightweight Shield of Harmony, whatever best bard-type armor I had at the time, and eventually Crom Faeyr (a ridiculous item, but I sure as hail would never not use it). With this and her vast array of spells, she actually tanked very well. Or she could hang back and buff everyone. Or she could hang back and Breach enemy magic protections. Or she could hang back and turn the battlefield into the 4th of July with her offensive magicks. Outside of disarming traps or picking pockets, she could do almost anything.

The downside: I did most quests in Chapter 2, and THEN went to rescue Imoen. Until you get Immy back, you may feel a little underpowered in the wizardly spells department. If I had to do that party over again, I would've rotated Yoshimo back and forth with Jan (or maybe Nalia) in Chapter 2, then took Yoshimo to Spellhold. Or maybe I would've went to rescue Imoen earlier... but when I finally got out of the Underdark, I was ready to see the story to its conclusion.

Anyways, with the group you've got, you'll rock and roll.

Ian Kognitow · Post by **Ian Kognitow** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:17 am

rbeverjr wrote: You don't have to choose Edwin, but he is the most powerful arcane caster. I'd probably choose him over the mod NPC mages like Tashia too.

I disagree with Ian concerning the relative power of Aerie and Edwin. I have played numerous times with both. I am familiar with the cheese. While Aerie can use some stinking cheese in ToB, it's always been the high level arcanes that rule this game, and Aerie's arcane power is less than Edwin's.

In respect to Tashia (and Kelsey as another popular mod-sorceror) I'd say that there is a consensus that sorcerors are more powerful than single-classed mages. There are plenty of threads worth of debate on that, so I won't rehash those arguments here. As for Aerie v. Edwin, while I'll grant that it takes Aerie longer to be really overpowering because she's multiclassed, it's not like she doesn't get certain arcane spells or anything because of it. In fact, it's the opposite, since as a conjurer, Edwin cannot use divination spells. Edwin may get a couple more mage spells per level, but does that really compensate for being able to use the whole range of cleric spells? And Aerie's turn undead? Furthermore, I don't know quite what you mean about cheese - at least any that Aerie can use that Edwin can't. The overpowering aspect of Aerie is the ability to put arcane and divine spells in triggers or contingencies - but it's not really an abuse or exploit of the game design and hence not cheese. Cheese comes in stuff like using multiple images to cast multiple planetars - but that's something Edwin can do too. I suppose Aerie's can summon devas as well, but it's not especially different.

rbeverjr · Post by **rbeverjr** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 8:55 am

@Ian concerning Edwin. I like Edwin, but I have played numerous times without him. So, I certainly don't consider him essential. When I do play with Edwin, I always have someone who can cast True Seeing - usually Keldorn. The other divination spells don't interest me. I grant you that Aerie can do more than Edwin: turning as well as divine spells. I consider her a decent NPC. She's actually in my team now, with Edwin (who I edited to a thief 10-mage who can unlock and disarm). What I contend is that she is the equal to Edwin in raw power, the ability to destroy the enemy masses. In SoA without Watcher's Keep (this forum), she simply does not compare. Even in ToB, I would still choose Edwin. It's very nice to have the high level arcane spells sooner, and the more spells you can memorize the better. Put another way, I want my time stop and improve alacrity sooner with plenty of spells that I can dump from time stop - even though I seldom use this cheesy combination. My definition of cheese is much more stringent than many people, and that's why I say Aerie has some cheesy combinations that Edwin doesn't (which does not make her more powerful). But you know it's OK that I have my own definition of cheese. I play games according to my definition of cheese and my numerous restrictions to make the game more challenging to me. At the same time, I encourage other people to play the game in whatever way that gives them the most fun.

Concerning sorcerer vs mage: I am not sure it is a consensus, but even if everyone in the world liked the BG2 sorcerer more than the wizard, it will not prevent me from forming my own conclusion. From the results of one of the mods, it seems that the Wild Mage (ToB) has proven to be the most powerful class of all. Personally, I like both sorcerer and wizard for different reasons. Each has its advantages. Both are very powerful. Sometimes, I play with both in my team. I think that Edwin's amulet is a cheese factor not allowed to other mages and sorcerers. Perhaps, his personal quest helps too? At any rate, the number of spells he gets per level is at least that of the sorcerer. Additionally, he can fill those slots with a greater variety of spells. That's less important in this game than in DnD 3.5, but I still think it has some significance.

Thrifalas · Post by **Thrifalas** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:00 am

The vanilla game is playthrough-able with each and every setup.

Even without companions.

Onkel Bob · Post by **Onkel Bob** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:19 am

rbeverjr wrote:

I don't believe anyone can claim to be objective while saying that one NPC is definitely more powerful than this other one. Even though I haven't written anything here I have been lurking here for years. I do believe I've read just about any opinion possible on who's the most powerful npc in this forum.

And who says that the only measure of power is the ability to kill stuff. How about the ability to keep the party alive? That's pretty important to me at least.

The general opinion I have formed by now is this: If a person claims that a certain NPC is the most powerfull in this game then he's probably right. At least he's right when he's the guy that's playing.

And that's one of the reasons I still play this game. If someone claims that Haer'Dalis or Cernd is a powerhouse then damn it but I want to figure out how.

rbeverjr · Post by **rbeverjr** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:07 am

"I don't believe anyone can claim to be objective while saying that one NPC is definitely more powerful than this other one."

I do try to be objective and base my conclusions on facts, math, and play experience. Some NPCs are definitely more powerful than others - objectively. I believe that I am correct concerning Edwin vs Aerie, but I don't claim to be the final authority.

Maybe Bruce Lee, User Unfriendly, or Fable would comment.

"And who says that the only measure of power is the ability to kill stuff."

Many hours playing this game has brought me to the conclusion that quickly eliminating the foes ("kill stuff") is smart and fun play. You are less likely to be hurt or bewitched with the foes all dead. Defense is another route, but it's hard to make a team virtually invulnerable to all physical and magical attacks, although those who play solo or small teams can do so, at least to a degree. But once you've got this invulnerable team, the game becomes boring.

"How about the ability to keep the party alive? That's pretty important to me at least."

The buff spells that a cleric has for the team in this game are not particularly exciting. They are certainly nice, but not indispensable. The only healing spell that I particularly like is Heal, although Mass Cure is OK. Resting with a regeneration item or very high Con does wonders for healing. Nevertheless, I do generally have a cleric in the party, because divine spells are useful - I am not arguing that. If you just wanted a cleric (along with better ability to turn, quicker access to Skeleton Warriors, more divine spell power, and even the ability to fight without extensive buffing), then Anomen is better than Aerie. The selection of the best NPC is team dependent. If choosing Edwin meant I would have no cleric, then I would not choose Edwin (unless looking for more challenge).

"The general opinion I have formed by now is this: If a person claims that a certain NPC is the most powerfull in this game then he's probably right. At least he's right when he's the guy that's playing."

There certainly is truth in that statement. However, I try to form my opinions from the comments of expert players, and my own experience. I have been around these forums since the game was introduced. I'm still learning though. For instance, Lark has brought some interesting tid bits to the database on spell cheese.

"And that's one of the reasons I still play this game. If someone claims that Haer'Dalis or Cernd is a powerhouse then damn it but I want to figure out how."

Every NPC can do powerful things. Some NPCs are more powerful than others. Some players may claim that an NPC is a powerhouse and be right. Sometimes the character is a powerhouse through cheese. Other times, an NPC is a "powerhouse" simply because the player thinks the NPC is fun. And some times, a particular NPC is claimed to be a power house because the player does not understand how to use other characters to their fullest potential. Personal bias or restrictions also play a part. For instance, I could play Haer'Dalis as a powerful character, but with the restrictions I impose on my own play, he would be abysmal.

Ian Kognitow · Post by **Ian Kognitow** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:02 pm

rbeverjr wrote:"I
Many hours playing this game has brought me to the conclusion that quickly eliminating the foes ("kill stuff") is smart and fun play. You are less likely to be hurt or bewitched with the foes all dead. Defense is another route, but it's hard to make a team virtually invulnerable to all physical and magical attacks, although those who play solo or small teams can do so, at least to a degree. But once you've got this invulnerable team, the game becomes boring.

So if you're preferring a game with a full party where total defense is hard to achieve, doesn't that place a greater need for versatility over 'raw power' - and by that logic, wouldn't Aerie seem more useful in such a party? Furthermore, by appearing to base your argument on the ability to blast everything using time stop/improved alacrity, that seems to be giving you a rather small window wherein Edwin would be living up to the role you give him. Time stop aside, 'quickly eliminating the foes' in the way you talk about it--where other tactics are negligible--isn't really in any mage's arsenal until at least 8th level spells are available [basically spell trigger (for stacked sunfires) and horrid wilting]; and really doesn't come into play until level 9 with time stop/imp. alacrity/and especially chain contingency. But if that is your main criteria, what about all the time before those particular spells are possible? Is one extra sunfire or skull trap worth more than access to the range of cleric spells (including early access to the offensively potent Holy Smite)? And what of after Aerie is capable of level 9 spells? If you're using time stop/imp. alacrity in the first place, how many do you really need to quickly win any particular battle? And again, whatever extra lower level spells Edwin can use in such a time stop are more than offset by Aerie's cleric spells.
So sure, for the relatively short game time that Edwin can use level 9 spells and Aerie can't, he's probably a more powerful NPC. But what about for the rest of the game?

rbeverjr · Post by **rbeverjr** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:04 am

"So if you're preferring a game with a full party where total defense is hard to achieve, doesn't that place a greater need for versatility over 'raw power' - and by that logic, wouldn't Aerie seem more useful in such a party?"

I'll take raw power *and* versatility, thanks.

"Furthermore, by appearing to base your argument on the ability to blast everything using time stop/improved alacrity, that seems to be giving you a rather small window wherein Edwin would be living up to the role you give him. Time stop aside, 'quickly eliminating the foes' in the way you talk about it--where other tactics are negligible--isn't really in any mage's arsenal until at least 8th level spells are available [basically spell trigger (for stacked sunfires) and horrid wilting]; and really doesn't come into play until level 9 with time stop/imp. alacrity/and especially chain contingency. But if that is your main criteria, what about all the time before those particular spells are possible?"

Getting the high level spells (not just time stop or spell trigger) sooner and more of them is a key to power. In SoA alone, I may use Anomen and Edwin in my team, but I think that Aerie will eventually outshine Anomen in ToB (even though I like Anomen's ability to wade into battle without a lot of buffing). I am playing with both pseudo-Edwin (swashbuckler 10-mage) and Aerie in my party now. I prefer Edwin for winning battles. Aerie helps and also serves as my cleric. Her versatility, particularly in ToB, has led me to choose her for this run through.

"Is one extra sunfire or skull trap worth more than access to the range of cleric spells (including early access to the offensively potent Holy Smite)?"

I still prefer the offensive ability of Arcane over Divine. Arcane is superior to divine in dominating battles - that is the consensus of the experts. I understand what you are saying that you give up a little arcane power to gain a relatively great amount of divine power, and you are right. I just don't think that it is a good trade for ultimate power - provided that you have another cleric in the party. Or as I did, you can have both Edwin and Aerie.

"And what of after Aerie is capable of level 9 spells? If you're using time stop/imp. alacrity in the first place, how many do you really need to quickly win any particular battle?"

In a single battle, late in ToB the power of Aerie is more similar to Edwin, but I don't like to rest after each battle. Also, the additional high level spells that Edwin has does still make him more powerful to me.

"And again, whatever extra lower level spells Edwin can use in such a time stop are more than offset by Aerie's cleric spells."

I disagree.

"So sure, for the relatively short game time that Edwin can use level 9 spells and Aerie can't, he's probably a more powerful NPC. But what about for the rest of the game?"

I think he is more powerful throughout the game.

Each person is entitled to their own opinion. I hope that the person who started this thread is benefitting from this discussion of characters (he did ask). But that's it for me. I've stated my position, and everyone is free to have their own opinion.

ensaro dai · Post by **ensaro dai** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:48 pm

Ian Kognitow · Post by **Ian Kognitow** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:09 pm

rbeverjr wrote:"So if you're preferring a game with a full party where total defense is hard to achieve, doesn't that place a greater need for versatility over 'raw power' - and by that logic, wouldn't Aerie seem more useful in such a party?"

I'll take raw power *and* versatility, thanks.

Your original premise though had been that the potential to kill everything in the first couple of rounds trumps all else. You had for instance referred to defense as 'another route' rather than a complementary or intertwined one. Moreover, the original poster's question, which had sparked this little debate, had read: "Are Iomen and Aerie good enough magically together (as opposed to having Edwin)?" So, it really is a question of Aerie v. Edwin in his party, making your qualifications about being able to use Edwin and Aerie together or Anomen in lieu of Aerie somewhat beside the point. And since a lot of your argument has come to rest on particular NPC combinations, I'd say that Aerie's versatility and latent superpower does complement Imoen more than Edwin.

rbeverjr wrote:I understand what you are saying that you give up a little arcane power to gain a relatively great amount of divine power, and you are right. I just don't think that it is a good trade for ultimate power - provided that you have another cleric in the party.

I don't really agree that there is any 'ultimate power' to be achieved in the game. While I had agreed that Edwin's ability to get high-level offensive spells earlier in the game does for a time make him considerably more offensively potent (as befitting any character with a higher level than another in a particular class), you still don't seem to address my argument that such ability, particularly with full parties, only comes rather late in the game (around the end of SoA; while Aerie can typically achieve such levels early in ToB, probably depending on when Watcher's Keep is done). Your preference for heavy arcane spellcasting over divine casting you say is for the capacity of 'dominating battles'. But *before* 8th-10th level spells become available, that 'domination' of blasting through triggers/time stops/and chain contingencies is not possible for any spellcaster.

Of course everyone will have their own views and preferences, I just don't think that Edwin actually lives up to the criteria you present.