XP Cap and dual-classed characters

Celacena · Post by **Celacena** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:03 am

can anybody tell me how the cap affects dualled - can you get 89k then another 89k?

I can see a problem in having any decent dualled if it's 89k total

even 89K each doesn't give much scope for an effective DC - you need to have decent skill levels to make the first class worthwhile.

anybody found it worthwhile to dual at level 2 mage just to be able to use mage euqipment? I assume not, but without UAI a fighter can't use the staff of the magi, which is a pretty nifty piece of kit.

I'm Lvl 7 vanilla fighter and fancied combining that with some kind of maginess or maybe a thief, who can be exported to BGII

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:47 am

The cap applies to combined experience. This means that if you dual-class a 5th Level Thief with 10,000 experience points, the second class will be limited to 79,000 experience points under the orginal BG1 cap. That's enough for a 7th Level Fighter, Mage, or Cleric. 7th Level is the highest level you can get under the cap, so dualling from a 5th Level Thief does not cost you any advancement potential. Other dual-class options are less generous. For example, a 7th Level Fighter with 64,000 experience points cannot effectively dual to another class when an 89,000 experience point cap is in effect.

However, the Tales of the Sword Coast expansion (which adds Durlag's Tower, Ulgoth's Beard, and various enhancements to the game) has a 161,000 experience point cap. It has tougher monsters to make up for the fact that your characters can reach higher levels. This gives a 7th Level Fighter the chance to dual to an 8th Level Thief or Mage. In another message thread titled "Perfect Character", the original poster suggested that a 7th Level Fighter dualled to an 8th Level Thief is the most potent character you can create. Other dual-class combinations are also very potent, such as a 7th Level Thief dualled to an 8th Level Mage. The biggest problem with dual-classing at such "high" levels is that your first class is inactive for so long. That's a big problem if you have a six-member party, but less of a problem if you have a smaller party.

I don't bother trying to import characters from BG1 to BG2. For one thing, the process has bugs and the hit points come out wrong. But the main reason is because the balance is completely different in BG2, and a character that was very effective in BG1 is less than optimal in BG2. For example, dualling at 5th, 6th, or 7th Level is not a good idea in BG2; it is much better to dual at 9th Level or even 13th Level. You might as well start a new character in BG2 and not worry about it while you play BG1.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:59 am

Celacena wrote:anybody found it worthwhile to dual at level 2 mage just to be able to use mage euqipment? I assume not, but without UAI a fighter can't use the staff of the magi, which is a pretty nifty piece of kit.

Actually, I have considered dualling a 1st Level Mage to another class just to gain the ability to use wands and scrolls. [EDIT: Except as kmonster points out below, you can't dual a 1st Level character. Sorry about that.] Dualling at 2nd Level might be an option, but I think you'd lose too many hit points to make it worthwhile [if you play a Fighter with Constitution 18, since you'd give up 16 hit points. A Thief on the other hand would only give up 4 hit points, so I think a 2nd Level Mage dualled to a Thief is a viable option in BG1, where the Staff of the Magi and Use Any Item don't come into play.] The Wand of Monster Summoning in particular can really come in handy, as well as the Wand of Fire and the Wand of Paralyzation.

The Staff of the Magi is not available in BG1 as far as I know. But if you plan to export a [2nd] Level Mage dualled to a Fighter to BG2, it is a good idea to create your character in BG1 since BG2 does not let you create a [2nd] Level dual-classed character (not without using an editor).

CFM · Post by **CFM** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:29 am

VonDondu wrote:I don't bother trying to import characters from BG1 to BG2. For one thing, the process has bugs and the hit points come out wrong. But the main reason is because the balance is completely different in BG2, and a character that was very effective in BG1 is less than optimal in BG2. For example, dualling at 5th, 6th, or 7th Level is not a good idea in BG2; it is much better to dual at 9th Level or even 13th Level. You might as well start a new character in BG2 and not worry about it while you play BG1.

I always assume using the import process to carry my BG1 dude into BG2. As I understood it, the process has the benefits of importing various items, behind-the-scenes flags, and higher starting XP. (However, that is a good point pertaining to dual-classed characters.)

I hope to someday find the time to replay BG1 & 2. You got me wondering: since I may someday use the import process again, could you elaborate on some of the bugs associated with it? Thanks in advance.

kmonster · Post by **kmonster** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:56 am

Dualing would only cripple your character for the rest of BG1, you can dual immediately at the start of BG2 if you want to dual after 7 fighter levels. But dualing after 9 fighter levels is better because of the extra HP you get.
It's not worth dualing just for the staff of the magi, you stop the fighter progression and won't gain good thac0, the extra half attacks at level 13, the great fighter saving throws and fighter hitpoints. You are stuck with your new class.
Only dual if you really want to play a thief or mage with fighting bonusses for the rest of the game.
A pure fighter (especially kensai) will do far more fighting damage.

@VonDondu: According to the rules you have to reach 2nd level in order to dualclass, so dualing after 1 mage level is impossible.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:57 am

CFM wrote:I always assume using the import process to carry my BG1 dude into BG2. As I understood it, the process has the benefits of importing various items, behind-the-scenes flags, and higher starting XP. (However, that is a good point pertaining to dual-classed characters.)
<snip>

If importing after ToSC then you'll import with that XP cap instead of the basic BG1 cap (meaning some ~161.000 XP if I remember right).
Other then that I do not recall many advantages from importing .... oh - the The Pantaloons Enigma and a few other items.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:19 pm

kmonster wrote:@VonDondu: According to the rules you have to reach 2nd level in order to dualclass, so dualing after 1 mage level is impossible.

Oops, you're right. I guess you're supposed to level up at least once before you can dual-class since otherwise, you could dual immediately after you create your character. Those pesky little rules.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:40 pm

CFM wrote:I always assume using the import process to carry my BG1 dude into BG2. As I understood it, the process has the benefits of importing various items, behind-the-scenes flags, and higher starting XP.

I hope to someday find the time to replay BG1 & 2. You got me wondering: since I may someday use the import process again, could you elaborate on some of the bugs associated with it? Thanks in advance.

BG2 does not use any flags from BG1. However, the importation program does check your inventory for Drizzt's items, and if you have those items, the game assumes that you killed Drizzt in BG1. It sets a global variable that affects the dialogue in BG2.

The game detects whether you are importing a character from a TOTSC saved game; if so, it raises the experience cap to 161,000 points. If you don't import your character from a TOTSC saved game, the cap remains at 89,000 points by default. I think this also applies to any pre-generated character you try to import. If the character has more than 89,000 experience points, the importation program attempts to recalculate his level and his hit points to comply with the experience cap. That's where the bug occurs. The bug also occurs if you import a character from a TOTSC saved game and your character has more than 161,000 experience points--again, the program attempts to make your character conform to the experience cap. I don't know exactly what formula it's trying to use, but the hit points are nearly always wrong.

As for bringing BG1 items with you into BG2, the list of transferable items is very short. Aside from the Golden Pantaloons, you can't bring anything with you that isn't already in BG2 or can't be replaced with better items. There is a list at Dudleyville that explains what can be imported. You can bring one suit of armor (Protector of the Second Leather Armour +2, Mail of the Dead Chain Mail +2, Fallorain's Plate Plate Mail +1, Missile Attraction +2 Studded Leather Armor (cursed), or Chainmail +3) and one other item (Helm of Balduran, Claw of Kazgaroth, Horn of Kazgaroth, or Koveras' Ring of Protection +1). According to Dudleyville, that's it. As you might have noticed, two of those items can already be found in Irenicus's dungeon (Mail of the Dead and Helm of Balduran). I don't know if you can keep Drizzt's items without cheating, but as I said earlier, the game will detect them if you try to bring them with you.

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:47 pm

I had considered dualling a Mage > Cleric after level 2 so that I could use the Robes of Vecna on a spellcasting Cleric.

I ended up making a multiclassed Gnome Cleric/Illusionist, a character that is vastly superior.

CFM · Post by **CFM** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:06 pm

Thanks to VonDondu and others for the import process info. A relief, because I'd only import a TotSC dude with 161k XP (the "intended" way, if you will).

A shame that none of the behind-the-scenes flags are imported, flags that would indicate in BG2 what decisions were made in your BG1 game. It would make your game feel more epic, somehow, and more personalized, which in turn would draw you more into the story. A missed opportunity, imo.

With regards to dualling... BG1 is more geared towards Warriors, and BG2 is more geared towards Wizards, imo. What about trying this:

- Go thru BG1 as a Fighter, maxing out at Level 8 with 125k XP, then maxing out XP with 161k.
- Import to BG2 as a Level 8 Fighter, with 161k XP.
- Early in BG2, just before hitting 250k XP (Level 9), dual over to a Wizard.
- 124k XP would automatically go towards the Wizard class, automatically (I think) putting you at Level 8 as a Wizard.

This would place you just a few thousand XP away from becoming a Level 9 Wizard, which would "activate" your Fighter proficiencies. Good plan?

LordTerror · Post by **LordTerror** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 4:17 pm

CFM wrote:Thanks to VonDondu and others for the import process info. A relief, because I'd only import a TotSC dude with 161k XP (the "intended" way, if you will).

A shame that none of the behind-the-scenes flags are imported, flags that would indicate in BG2 what decisions were made in your BG1 game. It would make your game feel more epic, somehow, and more personalized, which in turn would draw you more into the story. A missed opportunity, imo.

With regards to dualling... BG1 is more geared towards Warriors, and BG2 is more geared towards Wizards, imo. What about trying this:

- Go thru BG1 as a Fighter, maxing out at Level 8 with 125k XP, then maxing out XP with 161k.
- Import to BG2 as a Level 8 Fighter, with 161k XP.
- Early in BG2, just before hitting 250k XP (Level 9), dual over to a Wizard.
- 124k XP would automatically go towards the Wizard class, automatically (I think) putting you at Level 8 as a Wizard.

This would place you just a few thousand XP away from becoming a Level 9 Wizard, which would "activate" your Fighter proficiencies. Good plan?

How do you plan on getting that "automatic" 124k exp?

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 5:45 pm

CFM wrote:What about trying this:

- Go thru BG1 as a Fighter, maxing out at Level 8 with 125k XP, then maxing out XP with 161k.
- Import to BG2 as a Level 8 Fighter, with 161k XP.
- Early in BG2, just before hitting 250k XP (Level 9), dual over to a Wizard.
- 124k XP would automatically go towards the Wizard class, automatically (I think) putting you at Level 8 as a Wizard.

This would place you just a few thousand XP away from becoming a Level 9 Wizard, which would "activate" your Fighter proficiencies. Good plan?

No, unfortunately it doesn't work that way. You'll lose that 124k of experience and start with 0 experience as a Mage. You should dual your character as soon as you reach the maximum level you want him to reach in his first class.

There are so many advantages to letting your Fighter reach 9th Level, you might as well dual your Fighter at 9th Level anyway.

CFM · Post by **CFM** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:27 pm

LordTerror wrote:How do you plan on getting that "automatic" 124k exp?

I thought that if you got a Fighter up to 249k XP (which is just before leveling to 9 at 250k XP), then the 124k difference (from when you leveled to 8 with 125k XP) would be applied towards your new dualled mage class. I guess not, if you start back at 0 XP, no matter how many XP you had earned since the most recent level-up in the fighter class. Thank yous for clearing that up for me.

Celacena · Post by **Celacena** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:22 am

I always make a save before dual-classing - and you do lose all points in the old class.

I installed Ease of Use to remove the cap, as I couldn't get TOSC to install and after a lot of time-consuming attempts to sleep in the flesh golem's cave, have a lvl 8 fighter who has dualled to lvl 7/8 thief - with another hour or two of trying to sleep in the cave (2000xp per kill) I should get my old skills back. with the boots of speed and 100% hide in shadows, I can shoot a flame arrow, then run, hide and backstab. the backstabs make the golems literally explode, which is satisfying. I think it is called xp 'farming', but it can be dangerous. I forgot that thieves in BG1 don't get 'set traps' and I'd got to lvl 5 before I remembered it wasn't even a level-dependent skill. even so, the backstab damage at 30+ with the +2 shortsword is still worth the aggro.
I have also dualled Imoen as a straight mage, so my main PC will be the thief with her as back up and for her to supplement Dynorod, who cannot 'identify'.
I can't see that there was any need to take the fighter beyond 8 for BG1, as I am not soloing. I should probably have dualled Imoen earlier, but that's hindsight.

thanks for the help in understanding dualling and caps - the original release clearly got that aspect wrong - Although I have cleared many of the areas, I had maxed before starting on BG itself, which is daft. interesting that it appears that your XP continues to rise as a hidden flag when the cap is there - when I removed the cap, I had already earned about 3k points which had not been shown, but immediately came back towards my next level.

it will be fun having my fighter/thief as the party's scout. I'm thinking of going back to the Gullykin dungeon if available to get a load of fire arrows - I had about 200, but I have used all but 30 on flesh golems.

kmonster · Post by **kmonster** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:58 pm

I hope importing to BG2 will not mess up your character since you use the XPCap remover.
But you can use an editor to set HP and XP right again.

There's no need for XP farming in BG1 just to be experienced in BG2, you'll get millions of XP in BG2 and the first XP farming chance is already in the first dungeon there.

But stop thinking about BG2 now, you are playing BG1 in order to have fun there.