The apartment in which you were "Embraced" ...

[Lunaida]

I looked carefully out of the window of the apartment in which my character was Embraced in, and I think I could see the "Asylum" across the street.
Now, the only place which seems to have an overlook to the Asylum seems to be the apartments above the "Foxy Boxes" !!!
Does it mean that the apartment was actually there!? (Doesn't make sense to me RP wise lol) :laugh:

Also, the alley behind the "Nocturne Theatre" isn't the same as it was in the tutorial

[Lucita]

I allways kinda thought that the apartment you were embraced in, is the same as the heaven you get at the beginning...cause it was your sire's heaven beforehand.

[Anaximander]

I allways kinda thought that the apartment you were embraced in, is the same as the heaven you get at the beginning...cause it was your sire's heaven beforehand.

I used to think so as well, but Lunaida's right. If you watch the scene of your Embrace closely, you see the front door of the Asylum out the window. The angle you see it could only be from the second story of Foxy Boxes.

[Acleacius]

Neat.
Also that is correct, there is a different map for the tutorial.

[Jhereg]

What a hawk-eye! Can you perchance also spot field mice from 700 yards in the air?

But seriously. Foxy Boxes is a practical industrial facility for the manufacturing and storage of boxes. It's a factory. We know that, on the main floor, there is a break-room, an office (doubtlessly that of the owner and/or general manager), and a storage room. In the storage room, there is a catwalk on the second floor, indicating managerial and clerical offices on the second floor on the right as you walk in. Nothing on the left or the back, and above the first-floor rooms, nothing but empty storage space.

There are no apartments in that building. Has anybody ever seen a factory that was built to provide for residential tenants above it? I've never even heard of such a thing. Factories are built to serve a single purpose - manufacture. That is why they are built in the first place.

I think that what we are seeing here is simply a couple of instances of inconsistency in the game. They needed a view for the first cut-scene, and they randomly chose that one without regard, doubtlessly thinking that nobody would notice the inconsistency. It has, after all, been nearly two years, and as far as I know, nobody has noticed it before. A simple convenience.

Many have speculated in this forum that there seemed to have been more of the game intended, but not executed. Maybe these are just a couple of additional symptoms of that. The deadline draws nigh, and you do what you must to back-fill the details, even if they are wrong. They just have to be filled.

Or, maybe it was just a mistake. Has anybody ever watched "Quest For Fire", starring Ray Dawn Chong? Yes? Ever notice the contrails in the sky in the background? Just as the troup is descending onto the plain, near the beginning? Somehow, I doubt there were advanced air-force bases in England 100,000 years ago. Those contrails were created by jets from just such an air-force base, however. Not planned, not an inconsistency. Just a Continuity Director that needs to give their head a vigorous shake, and tone down a bit on the Hallucinogens.

[Lunaida]

What a hawk-eye! Can you perchance also spot field mice from 700 yards in the air?

Playin the game for the fourth time, it was kinda hard to miss! lol
Anyway, it has been on my mind for a long time; I just forgot to check it out everytime I started the game anew, but this time I remembered :mischief:

I think that what we are seeing here is simply a couple of instances of inconsistency in the game. They needed a view for the first cut-scene, and they randomly chose that one without regard, doubtlessly thinking that nobody would notice the inconsistency.

Yes, that is what I have come to believe also!

Here is a pic of the window, in case anyone wants to check it out:

[Acleacius]

Well I don't know for sure myself, it seems they intended to imply they were at the club and our PC was seduced and turned.
There was plenty of alcohol and pills, iir.
Looks as if they used the seoncd level above the office in FB, as a mapping location of the hotel room/apt.

[Wesp5]

Looks as if they used the second level above the office in FB, as a mapping location of the hotel room/apt.

You can check this out easily by starting the map sp_theatre.bsp via the console. It seems they just missed one overlapping window which is rather harmless compared to the bigger issue that the Foxy Boxes front itself shows windows at ground level from the outside but not from the inside...

[gonin]

Traitor

Well seeing that Foxy Boxes was the point of which the Kuei-Jin were spying on Santa Monica. Possibly your sire was a traitor??? Thats would explain why they would hide you in a industrial building (no one would think of it) and why they had such an urge to kill u ( "blah blah blah sireing bad, kissing my ass good" as Lacroix would put it).

[Celacena]

interesting that this hasn't come up before, but I wondered about this aspect of the story-line - oriental vamp spying on the baron of SM - and a nossie susses them out and orchestrates their removal. bertram tung (name!) is also disrupting Theresa's plans and she is closer to LaX than many of the other barons. both the oriental vampire and tung both interested in LaX.
was the PCs siring to create a pawn? there is a thought that it may have been - (Smiling) Jack - is coming out of the box - according to E - where? on the beach at SM.

and Beckett - during the mission to find out about the mess on the pier - there is a dog shape that runs up the hill as you are returning to the beach from inspecting the corpse.
Beckett is also watching from right back then.

Mercurio wants the astrolite to blow up the sabbat warehouse. He is laX's ghoul, even though he doesn't seem that loyal. odd. is it part of LaX's plan for the Sabbat to attack him so he can send you after them? not sure. a pawn turns into a queen at the edge of the board, though.

on some run-through's the Professor reveals that finding the sarcophagus was not entirely luck.

who was your sire? why were they chosen?

[Anaximander]

[quote="Celacena]who was your sire? why were they chosen?
[/quote"]

Maybe it wasn't your Sire's plan to embrace you at all. Strauss could have Dominated a younger vampire into siring a childe. This would undermine the young Prince's authority, and give Strauss a chance to gauge his reaction and that of the Anarchs. The Ventrue Primogen - who we never meet - could pull this one off as well.

But then, whoever your real sire was, LaCroix knew them. "Like Sire, Like Childe" he says in your final confrontation with him. As though your sire, too, had a habit of defying him. Was your embrace also an act of defiance? Or was it meant to be done in secret? If the former, why did your sire choose an act for which she must have known the penalty was death? Did she perhaps expect greater support from the Nines and the Anarchs? If the latter, who ratted your sire out?

[Celacena]

"Like Sire, Like Childe"

it is certainly stretching credulity to believe that the enforcers "stumbled in on" the PC so quickly post-embrace - so the sire was under surveillance, if not actual instruction.

the Sire gets no mercy in the opening cut-scene and nobody appears prepared to contradict LaX until the PC is under direct threat. LaX appears to have something in mind for the PC, even at the point of saving the PC, but LaX cannot at that point be able to predict whether the PC is likely to be 'a player' in the game rather than a very slowly advancing pawn. dialogue suggests that LaX only decides that the PC has some use only later on - although the quest to retrieve the werewolf blood from the hospital comes early on and suggests that perhaps LaX did have plans for the PC. there is a contradiction between LaX giving the werewolf blood quest and other factors at that time.
alternatively the mission could have been given because Mercurio got his ass whipped by the beach-house posse. for that to be the case though, it would require that LaX was aware that Mercurio was out of action, which seems unlikely as you have the choice to be disloyal to Mercurio later on when you report.
once the PC gets down-town, the plot thickens. Nines saves the PC when the sabbat would finish the PC off. after that, LaX realises he can use your political 'innocence' to get close to Nines to frame him - which could have been suggested by Ming, as she seems smarter than LaX.
LaX knows about the PCs meeting with Nines - but how?
is there a double-agent in the Anarchs? not likely to be Damsel, as she is with Nines in the end-game - but one of the others? perhaps.
it appears to go wrong for LaX when the sarcophagus is stolen. Gary says that he told the Giovanni and LaX about the sarcophagus, hence pointing the finger at the Giovanni for stealing it - but the Brothers tell the PC about the alliance and they are in the Giovanni's basement - does that mean that the Giovanni and Ming were working together as well as Ming and LaX? seems that way to me. Ming has the key, it seems, yet she does not open the box - or does she? is it finding out that there is no antediluvian that changes her mind or is it that having both key and sarcophagus in her possession, she can deny the Camarilla vamps a potential ally against her?
what is her game at that point?
she does not seem to want an outright war with vamps and doesn't hold recovering the sarcophagus against the PC - she appears to want to play a waiting game, but if she knows the box is empty, why does she put her team in the firing line by not meeting the PC and returning the key, rather than fight to the death?
is her shape-changing linked to the Sheriff's? is the Sheriff another form of Kuai-Jin? does LaX know the real form of the Sheriff?
a "Behemoth" is simply an over-large creature - does the background explain it better than the game? in the intro - the Sheriff has the powers of a vamp - so is the behemoth merely a war-form of a gangrel-type vamp?

of course, it may be that many of the "complexities" of the plot are simply places where the game was rushed out without being finished and the original script may have cleared up a number of these issues in a more satisfactory manner. perhaps it is simply bad scripting that so many ambiguities exist.

[Darkstone]

once the PC gets down-town, the plot thickens. Nines saves the PC when the sabbat would finish the PC off.

What's interesting here is that the cabbie lets the PC out in the middle of nowhere. Right in front of an alley where the Sabbat just happen to be waiting with a baseball bat. And then somehow Nines arrives right at the opportune moment armed with a grenade.

It would seem someone set the PC up with the Sabbat. And then set the Sabbat up with Nines.

Who? Bertram Tung urges you to head Downtown ASAP. And he's played you before. I still think Gary is behind everything.

[Celacena]

What's interesting here is that the cabbie lets the PC out in the middle of nowhere. Right in front of an alley where the Sabbat just happen to be waiting with a baseball bat. And then somehow Nines arrives right at the opportune moment armed with a grenade.

It would seem someone set the PC up with the Sabbat. And then set the Sabbat up with Nines.

Who? Bertram Tung urges you to head Downtown ASAP. And he's played you before. I still think Gary is behind everything.

from recalling the cut scene, I think that the cabbie drops off the PC either by the hospital or in the parking lot behind the Empire Arms Hotel - neither of which is unreasonable. a bit of a coincidence that the Sabbat are waiting for you though - I wonder if Tung is playing both sides - he helps you attack the warehouse for the Camarilla, so perhaps he is redressing the balance.

I am coming to suspect that Gary IS more involved in the plot-line than I first thought - but it is the sabbat who are hounding him and keeping the nossies underground. the schrecknet - must see a lot of things - Mitnick suggests so.

[Anaximander]

Jack suggests to you that it was LaCroix who tipped the Sabbat off to your whereabouts when you arrive downtown, in an effort to eliminate you while keeping his own hands clean. Indeed, according to Jack, every mission LaCroix sends you on is just another indirect attempt on your life. As I recall, he offers no explanation as to how Nines happened to arrive just in time.

Would LaCroix really stoop to dealing with the Sabbat to get rid of you as Jack suggests? Did Jack himself tell the Sabbat where to find you, then blame it on LaCroix to discredit him? Jack could have even sent Nines there to save you, to win your loyalty to the Anarchs.

As for Tung, whatever he was up to in Santa Monica was most likely at Gary's direction. We know from our dealings with Knox that he was keeping tabs on the Kuei-Jin there. I suspect that Tung was Gary's contact with the Kuei-Jin, and that their temporary alliance was set up between Tung and the Kuei-Jin we find in Foxy Boxes. Perhaps the Kuei-Jin were reluctant to meet Gary's terms at first, and so Tung was ordered to eliminate this one to send a message to Ming Xiao not to take the Nosferatu too lightly. Tung, being the clever individual he is, puts as many layers between himself and this murder as possible, sending Knox to trick you into doing it yourself. Therese seems to have noticed Tung's activity in her barony and misinterpretted it as an attack against her. Jeanette's subsequent meddling with Tung only serves to infuriate Therese even more.... and then the PC is thrown into the mix.

[Coruel]

I don't whether the Gary - Tung connection is that strong. Admitted Tung says he's loyal to the clan and the primogen, but on the other hand he sends the (nosferatu) PC on a quest to retrieve a data CD for him in the warrens. That always seemed to me a bit suspicious - if he knew about this and is so loyal, why not pass the info about that CD to Gary?

[Jhereg]

*** Possible Spoilers ***

I am coming to suspect that Gary IS more involved in the plot-line than I first thought - but it is the sabbat who are hounding him and keeping the nossies underground. the schrecknet - must see a lot of things - Mitnick suggests so.

First, I insist that the Los Angeles International Airport (LAX) is blameless in all of this

But seriously, Celacena's comment tripped something from my over-burdened memory. Mitnick's second hub. The theater. Anybody recognise it? It's Lacroix's audience chamber/courtroom (which mean the same thing in any case). Gary is hounding Mitnick to expand their surveillance network, and the second hub just happens to be Lacroix's audience chamber, where you are instructed to place a camera pointed at the stage. That gets me thinking about the other hubs. Is Megahurtz a front for the Voerman Sister? Is Metalhead Industries a front for Isaac? Is Kamikaze Zen a front for Ming?

Up until now, I had pretty much discounted Gary utterly, but that connection throws up a bit of a red flag. We know that Gary, while putatively part of the Camarilla, is not entirely loyal to it (vis a vis the Giovanni).

Also, when talking to Gary, if you tell him that he should help you because you got rid of Andrei, he doesn't seem all that grateful. In fact, he seems a bit put out that you removed Andrei and the creatures from the sewers.

Now, one nossie gets finalized in the sewers, but who knows? Maybe just some young, stupid hot-head.

Perhaps the nossies making their way in and out of the Warrens isn't all that difficult even with the Fiend's creations wandering around. After all, Gary has a handy back door right into Hollywood. Mitnick says it himself, "There are more of us around than you'd think." Maybe the notion that Andrei has them trapped in the warrens is more along the lines of a convenient excuse to become unavailable to the Camarilla. So why would Gary want the Nosferatu to become suddenly unavailable? Assuming it was an excuse, then was Andrei perhaps a pawn in the game as well, somehow tricked into 'trapping' the Nosferatu in order to give Gary an excuse to become unavailable? If so, why? To facilitate his dealings with the Giovanni? To what end? Ahhh, the Thicken Plots.

In any case, though, all speculation aside, the back-story tells the tale. The WoD is a hell-hole of convoluted plots, plots within plots, counter-plots, and power plays that very few know everything about. The fact that the connections here are at best vague is not a mistake. That is the very nature of this world. Who's doing what to whom? Who knows why? Where are they? Nobody knows, and nobody is supposed to know.

I rather suspect that, with all of us here, we could probably come up with a half-dozen perfectly plausible plots that adequately explain everything.

[Celacena]

LaX - I rather liked that as shorthand - La 'X' in French "Croix" - my Aunt's maiden name was Delacroix (as in the painter) - which appears to have been a surname meaning 'Christian', which as she came from a predominantly non-christian country made a bit of sense from the days when surnames related to something distinctive about the family.
to avoid the Los Angeles Airport tag, I kept the lower-case 'a' - LAX features in Splinter Cell Pandora Tomorrow, so I had heard of it, despite not being an international jet-setter (should have asked my wife who has flown via it).

Strange that a vamp should be La Croix - but I suppose he was the cross that the other vamps had to bear...

Back to the plot, I share the mystification that Gary isn't pleased that the PC got rid of Andrei. Mind you - if you look in the store room, Gary is supplying Sin Bin with films - could that include DMP ones? if so, then Andrei and Gary are working together. Mitnick already has cameras in the warrens.
clearly Andrei uses a monster to kill Isaac's contact who is looking into the films and Dirty Dog at the Sin Bin is in contact with DMP - yet also the Sin Bin is where Chastity is hanging out whilst investigating Hatter's screenplay - V V is under surveillance via Sin Bin, which puts Sin Bin into the Foxy Boxes (do young Americans call a lady's secret garden a 'box'?) but also Asp Hole is being covered - again sounding rather like another orifice! a hole where a 'snake' goes (including trouser variety) is one doesn't just rely on the assonance of the word. of course that word may be extracting the urine from 'Ash' - as he behaves like an a-hole throughout.

so - in Holy Wood we have
Gary lurking
Isaac worried
V V concerned
Dirty Dog & DMP in business
Andrei farming out snuff movies
Ash hiding
Chastity and A.N.Other hunting
Strauss the tremere regent's gargoyle on the loose
None of LaX's minions in sight

Having done Giovanni and Hallowbrook, I paid a visit to the Sisters back in Santa Monica over the weekend - they have officially sided with the Camarilla - I can't recall if it is with LaX himself, but they believe that they will be offered 'the Barony' which is odd, as a barony is a non-cam title used by the anarchs. I popped in to store extra blood packs and weapons at the 1st haven in prep for the blood hunt - I usually drop off a flame thrower there - so much quicker than fighting! During the (upcoming) blood hunt, I usually sneak kill the first 4 - which is fun and then have a fight with the next 2 before sneak-killing all those in the garage. for fun, I then shoot the ones in the road near Asylum and then go back to get rid of those hidden in the back alleys near Megahurtz. I'm following my Code - you line up against me and every mofo in your team gets wasted - stuff just sneaking to the cab as a way of doing it - too easy - turn to dust you mothers! turn the blood hunt on its head!

[Darkstone]

Yeah, Andrei's monsters work both ways. They keep the Nosferatu in (which Gary wants anyway since he's ordered them to stay put in the warrens). They also keep enemies out (such as assassins sent by LaCroix to extract revenge for selling the info on the sarcophagus). There is one quick and safe way out: Through Gary's room. In other words, Gary is very carefully controlling who gets in and who gets out. The one nossie killed in the warren seemed to have been operating without Gary's permission, so I'd imagine no tears were shed over him. I'd say Andrei and Gary are working together. (Though it seems Gary stole and sold Andrei's snuff film.)

The only thing that's constant throughout all the endings is LaCroix's death. And just about everybody wants him dead: the Anarchs, Andrei, the Sabbat, the Giovannis, Ming, Bach, and probably Max. Like Jhereg points out one could construct a plot where any one of them was behind it. So what if indeed *all* if them were? A really devious Nosferatu would pitch a LaCroix removal plan to each of them, jump you through all the hoops to do the dirty work, then collect the same bounty money from each faction. Now that seems like the sort of convoluted scam Smilin' Jack would just love to be in on.

[Anaximander]

[quote="Celacena](do young Americans call a lady's secret garden a 'box'?)[/quote"]

For as long as I can remember. I had a good laugh the first time I saw the Foxy Boxes sign on that building in Santa Monica. Thought it was supposed to be strip joint or something at first. "Secret garden." I don't know why, but that one makes me laugh. Maybe it's the thought of foliage growing down there....

Anyway... There have been a lot of interesting ideas and possibilities brought up here, but Jhereg's right. As fun as it is to speculate about who did what and why, we could go on like this forever and still never reach a solid conclusion about anything. I'm starting to think that the writers of this game may have been very clever, and that this was all done intentionally, to show us just how convoluted the intrigue of Kindred society can be.