Perception of beauty.

[Craig]

Just watch this vid: YouTube - dove evolution

[Magrus]

Women need to realize what that video shows. Not that men don't as well, but it is more important for a person to understand for their own self interests rather than in order to appease and please others. Too many young people think that doing things like starving yourself, or going on these wacky diets that are horrid for you, or forcing yourself to do painful and potentially damaging excercises are necessary. Unfortunately, young people tend to be very impressionable and feel that what other people think is extremely important.

I try to tell young women that I happen to see when they look pretty or cute. Not when they are covered in makeup and dressed in slutty clothes. When a girl happens to have run out of contacts, and wears her *gasps* regular glasses, and they actually look good on her. If she walks out wearing jeans and a baggy t-shirt and doesn't bother to put on makeup. Emphasis on a girls natural state helps to break away from the "I need to be thin, in expensive and revealing clothes and covered in makeup" type mentality. I'm just one person, and that doesn't do a whole lot though, unfortunately. More than that, I have and always will be the "odd one out", and therefore to a person focused on fitting in, I am the last person they will want to seek advice from. Which is a shame, I get disgusted looking at all of the 15 year old whores that wander around nowadays.

[Obsidian]

Agreed.

However, I am a shallow vain man who only dates natural beauties. But that is me

Though in all fairness I think my girl looks best when she has the least on...

makeup.

Clearly I meant makeup.

Thank god she has no idea I am part of this forum...

[Craig]

I do try to mention this to people; to be honest I don't find those skinny, expensive clothe wearing, maked-up girls to be that attractive.

[Chimaera182]

I have issues with people who would idolize that woman. They think she's glamorous, they think she's hot, they think she's sexy... As that clip clearly demonstrated--and as I've argued all along--that woman is fake. A couple of my friends always try to look good, and it just frustrates me no end. I'll again retell the tale where I was out with two girls and one of them asked me how they looked in that skirt; everyone else said it made her look thinner. I said it looked okay, and boy did the wrath of Hell come down on me from both of them. Apparently, what they wanted to hear me say was, "You look anorexic," only in a much nicer way. So I've resolved myself to say that to any girl who asks me their opinion on anything. It'll likely get me in trouble with them and they won't think it's funny, but it'll be what they wanted to hear anyway.

If you noticed how quick that clip was, you see that woman is sitting there for an awful long time. It's clear they worked on her for quite some time; maybe a couple hours, not including some things they also did to her. Who has that kind of time? And then when they were finished making her up, they digitally altered her appearance. It's disgusting.

[QuenGalad]

Well, the problem is that beauty is judged the most important feature of a woman.
There is no importance attached to our brains, our inner qualities. All we have are our bodies. It is therefore normal that girls want to "squeeze" as much as they can out of their looks, because that's their only "capital". A great mind can not guarantee getting a good job, but makeup and slutty clothes can. At least in my country, that's normal. Poland is currently all shocked to hear our vice-prime-minister has been sexually abusing young women working for his party in the parliament (translators, secretaries etc.)

Good looks, "good" by most vulgar "male" standards, is a much better career move in a world dominated by men who only seek their own pleasure and satisfaction. And boy, they do. Everywhere and everywhen.

It is not obligatory, of course. I would never let myself fall that low, as we say. But other women do, and it's pure economics: where there's demand for something, the offer (is that the word? or supply, maybe?) follows. And currently, there's a lot of demand for slutty vulgar women ready for everything. Sigh.

Nice to hear some reasonable voices, though.

[Craig]

Yay, a female opinion! I do agree with some points but I didn't think it was that bad. What country do you live in?

[QuenGalad]

Craig, I see you haven't seen the words "Poland is currently all shocked..."

I hope it's not that bad... It's just that when you're concerned in the matter, it hurts... You guys are only watchers, you see and comment (wisely, IMO), but I'm in it. I feel it, I see I'm at loss because I'm not like that. It's horrible, let me tell you.

[Magrus]

I do try to mention this to people; to be honest I don't find those skinny, expensive clothe wearing, maked-up girls to be that attractive.

Me either. Not to say I haven't oggled one of my past girlfriends when they got all dressed up. However I did the same when they threw on a $20 pair of jeans and t-shirt, and went out with me, mess hair and freckles and all.

@ Chim, I outright ignore girls that take an inordinate amount of time to get themselves ready to go out. I distinctly recall planning to take my brother and some friends for a night out. One of our friends took about 3 hours to get ready, just showering, doing makeup and dressing. 3 hours. I got drunk, he took a nap, and we left without her before she was done on top of that. She could not understand why, because her mother told her all men will wait for a woman who makes herself presentable. HA.

@ QuenGalad, Interesting and sad to hear it works that way there. Generally, pretty woman are hired in customer service type businesses in order to draw male customers. If you have a pretty young woman, and a more qualified male both applying for a job here, the young woman tends to get it. Granted, this is based on looks, but it is in the girls favor. This has led to a mentality that girls have to use their bodies to get what they want, which propogates the cycle of losing weight and buying those expensive clothes and makeups. However once you get into the higher level jobs, it is more of a male dominated economy still.

[Obsidian]

Well, the problem is that beauty is judged the most important feature of a woman.

No, it is merely the first judged. A mans appearance is judged just as quickly. Shoes watch tie chiseled jaw.

I am going to be entirely honest here. I would never be involved with a women I was not strongly physically attracted to. Brilliant funny creative aside, if I cannot find myself wanting them physically, they have no chance in a romantic relationship.

But that venue only.

They are welcome as my friends and peers. But not my lover.

Distinctions of beauty are only a problem when you allow them to be correlated with opinions of WORTH.

[dragon wench]

My first reaction is, "Wow!"
OK, what I mean is, that's a really cool video, it reminded me of the way crime shows do facial reconstructions.

But, I realise that is not why it was posted

I've basically stated this before, I generally believe that the inside defines the outside, and I find it pretty galling the way "beauty" is often manufactured in the way shown above.
Further, you could present me with the most attractive guy in the world, but if he was an awful person, I'd view him as ugly.

That being said, I'm not oblivious to appearance, but, for me, there has to be much more.

Regarding how this affects men and women.. I think it is probably fair to say that women have often been more in the spotlight when it comes to being judged on appearance, there are all kinds of socio-historical reasons for this. But, men are also subject to this sort of superficial scrutiny, I think it's just far more subtle. As a symbolic example, we don't have male beauty pageants...

[QuenGalad]

Generally, pretty woman are hired in customer service type businesses in order to draw male customers. (...) However once you get into the higher level jobs, it is more of a male dominated economy still.

Well, yes, and that's exaclty the problem! We do not get high level jobs, because they need a mind, which we are told not to have, and we can olny get looks-based jobs, because look is the only thing we have! We are supposed to "attract male customers", as if we were some kind of ornament, some decoration, like a "good office, expensive armachair and pretty secretary" all packed up in one set. That's why I say that beauty has become the most important quality of a woman. And I don't think it's supposed to be.

@Obsidian, "shoes watch tie"? Is that really judging look and beauty? You can buy those things, you can do something in the way of shoes and tie. But you can't change your legs, size of your breasts/ears/nose, shape of your buttocks. And that's what's judged in me. So don't equal judging male and female looks, beacuse it's not equal.

[Obsidian]

@Obsidian, "shoes watch tie"? Is that really judging look and beauty? You can buy those things, you can do something in the way of shoes and tie. But you can't change your legs, size of your breasts/ears/nose, shape of your buttocks. And that's what's judged in me. So don't equal judging male and female looks, beacuse it's not equal.

I also said chiseled jaw.
But sure, shoulder size, height, blue eyes. Pick a feature. My point is that we judge based on what we can see. @ DW you'd think that man was hot UNTIL you met him. How often do we have honest conversations with people we meet on the street?

The shape of the buttocks can surely be changed by working out. Men are equally judged by the size and definition of their upper bodies.

Mr. Universe isn't a male beauty pagent? Men don't feel left out if they can't bench press 200lbs?
Yes, wait, we can do something about that. We can hit the gym. Women have makeup.

I don't agree that men are unjudged. There are male models and male ideals.

I love the scene in fightclub where they look up at a Calvin Klein billboard and ask "is that what a real man looks like?"

[dragon wench]

@ DW you'd think that man was hot UNTIL you met him. How often do we have honest conversations with people we meet on the street?

No, not necessarily. You can tell *a lot* about a person by the way they carry themselves, the way they walk, the clothing and accessories they've chosen, and the expression they wear.
If a guy walks with a swagger, reeks of cologne and displays the over-preened c0cksure attitude of a peac0ck, I don't care how attractive he is, my interest dies instantly.

[Obsidian]

damn fine point DW.

But in men's defence, skanky dressing screams one thing, sex. It is more socially acceptable, for some reason, for men to hunt sex. I'm not proud to say I've done it. But its only good for one night.
Now, some women can scream sex appeal and look untouchable. Skanky dressing impies they are touchable, and thats why the get attention.

On a related topic, check this out.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/08/healt ... yt&emc=rss

[QuenGalad]

Sigh... So it's not beauty, it's just prospect of having sex... I knew it.

But You're right, we judge by what we see. Only it's more likely for a man to "erase" a girl because she's not pretty, and never even talk to her - thus never knowing whether she was really interesting. Oh, hell, I just can't get accustomed to that!

And another good point, mostly girls dress in some way because they want to. They know they're going to get shallow attention, so maybe 'shallowness' is what they want? As long as it doesn't lead to violence it seems fair...

[dragon wench]

[QUOTE=Obsidian]Now, some women can scream sex appeal and look untouchable. Skanky dressing impies they are touchable, and thats why the get attention.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=QuenGalad]And another good point, mostly girls dress in some way because they want to. They know they're going to get shallow attention, so maybe 'shallowness' is what they want? As long as it doesn't lead to violence it seems fair...[/QUOTE]

I think both of these points are true. But, I think it also needs to be said here that women don't always dress in a certain way to attract or please men, even if they are attired in a skanky manner.
Often, women present themselves in a particular way because they are doing it for themselves as it makes them feel good (for any number of reasons), or because they are doing it for other women. In the latter case, it is not unlike when men get together and have drinking contests or participate in other activities where they vie for alpha dominance.

[Magrus]

I think both of these points are true. But, I think it also needs to be said here that women don't always dress in a certain way to attract or please men, even if they are attired in a skanky manner.
Often, women present themselves in a particular way because they are doing it for themselves as it makes them feel good (for any number of reasons), or because they are doing it for other women. In the latter case, it is not unlike when men get together and have drinking contests or participate in other activities where they vie for alpha dominance.

Logical, however, when men do those drinking contests and such, it is related entirely to the contest while the contest is going on. The winner may use the fact he won in order to try to get attention from women, yes, but generally, it is just a contest in and of itself. Women dressing in a revealing manner to be dominant in a group of women is an entirely different situation than men drinking themselves into a coma at a bar.

Why? The men aren't up at the bar in revealing clothing to show off their abs and butt for women while doing what they are doing, whereas the women are doing exactly that, and nothing else. While the intent may be the same, the secondary responses from onlookers will be far, far different. Whereas in the case of the men, people may be amused or disgusted by the scene...the women? Chances are nearly every male they come into contact with will now have seen the girls flaunting their bodies.

Which produces the situation Obsidian put up, those girls want people to look at their chest or hips because they are deliberately putting on clothing that emphasis it. Whether it was the intent of the wearer to put the clothes on to become more dominant in some manner over other women is now irrevelant. They are displaying goods like a hawker at a fair, and everyone can see and therefore react. Just as the women can react to the men drinking themselves stupid at the bar, the men will react to the women dressing in that manner. Even if both were to be an inclusive situation for men drinking, and women showing off their bodies to each other and not wanting men involved. If you do it in public, it becomes public, and everyone gets a look and a say.

[dragon wench]

Which produces the situation Obsidian put up, those girls want people to look at their chest or hips because they are deliberately putting on clothing that emphasis it. Whether it was the intent of the wearer to put the clothes on to become more dominant in some manner over other women is now irrevelant. They are displaying goods like a hawker at a fair, and everyone can see and therefore react. Just as the women can react to the men drinking themselves stupid at the bar, the men will react to the women dressing in that manner. Even if both were to be an inclusive situation for men drinking, and women showing off their bodies to each other and not wanting men involved. If you do it in public, it becomes public, and everyone gets a look and a say.

But just because such women dress in that way does not, I repeat, not always or necesssarily imply that they want to be looked at. Let's remember, as you yourself have implied, all too often boys are raised by their fathers, and society more generally, to believe that women put themselves on display expressly for their viewing pleasure.
And this is the exact same attitude that frequently leads to the defense of "She wanted it," in rape trials.

[Craig]

Often, women present themselves in a particular way because they are doing it for themselves as it makes them feel good (for any number of reasons), or because they are doing it for other women. .

I've stressed that I think that way before to mixed opinions. But it is definitely there.

I found now that the new sixform have come up in my school I want to talk to the girls that I find attractive, but also to the one that share interests with me. But if you don't know there interests what do yuo have to go on to seperate person A from person B?