Gnome or Dwarf? Spoilers for Temple of Helm sub quest

[dragon wench]

OK, I just noticed an odd discrepancy while doing the Illithium quest...

When you speak to Ungar Hilldark in the Copper Coronet, he describes Neb the child killer as looking like a Hill Dwarf:

"I show my face and he'll have the guards on me just for being duergar. Typical of this city. I'm just a poor businessman, but I'll be jailed just for my shadowed face. This bastard that robbed me looks like a hill dwarf, so he's welcomed with open arms. "


When you take Neb's head to Bylanna one of your dialogue options is:
"I have the head of a criminal here, a gnome by the name of Neb..."


Soooo... Is Neb a gnome or a dwarf?
Or, since he is on the run from Baldur's Gate, is Neb a gnome who is masquerading as a dwarf?

I looked at both the BG and BG2 walkthroughs here, but I didn't see anything.

Anyone know?

[VonDondu]

According to Neb's .CRE file, he is a gnome. I don't know if that settles the question, though. Is he a svirfneblin? Does Unger's comment mean that Neb tries to pass himself off as a hill dwarf? (He's a criminal and he's on the run from the law.)

I'm past the point where I expect any consistency from the BG series. That doesn't make it any less entertaining, though.

[dragon wench]

I'm really wondering if Neb is just trying to pass himself off as a dwarf, maybe it's even possible there was some kind of a quest planned around this, and it was axed...

[Andurbal]

When you take Neb's head to Bylanna (...)

I'm just wondering who and where this Bylanna is... (I thought Unger would be pleased to see Neb's head, but he wasn't interested at all...)

[dragon wench]

I'm just wondering who and where this Bylanna is... (I thought Unger would be pleased to see Neb's head, but he wasn't interested at all...)

She's in the Council of Six Building, in the Government District, the same place where the Cowled Wizards are headquartered.

[Jedi_Sauraus]

I'd say he's a dwarf since they are usually more prone to being evil. when thinking of a gnome I tend to think Halfling > Frodo

[Galuf the Dwarf]

Highlight for spoiler between this and the

Spoiler

In BG1, he has the appearance AND a soundset of a gnome, and between what he looks like when you approach him in BG2 and the dialogue options w/ Bylanna, I'd say he's a gnome.

Note: Evil-aligned gnomes are rare, but they do exist. In numerous cases of that, they may worship the only noted evil deity of the gnomes, Urdlen, a god of spriggans (a small fey creature related to gnomes that can magically grow to large size), murderers, bandits, and all around bloodlusting warriors.

Anyone who wants to know more about the Crawler Below should check the 2nd Edition Forgotten Realms sourcebook Demihuman Deities or the 3rd Edition Realms sourcebook Faiths & Pantheons.


In conclusion, I believe Neb is a gnome.

[dragon wench]

Thanks for that Galuf. I was wondering how Neb appeared in BG1, but I couldn't remember at all.

I suspect you are probably right, especially with Von Dondu having confirmed that his .CRE file classifies him as a gnome.

In that case, either Ungar's dialogue was improperly implemented or there's a suggestion there that Neb is disguising himself as a Hill Dwarf...

@Jedi Sauraus,
the thing is though, Gnomes are actually related to Dwarves, not halflings. I believe the BG2 description at character creation is someting like 'they are proud they are less rotund than their dwarven cousins.'

[Galuf the Dwarf]

@Jedi Sauraus,
the thing is though, Gnomes are actually related to Dwarves, not halflings. I believe the BG2 description at character creation is someting like 'they are proud they are less rotund than their dwarven cousins.'

At least in the Baldur's Gate series they are said to possibly be related to dwarves. Future D&D lore doesn't seem to really support that.

In fact, Gnomes seem to have been changed in body stature from 2nd Edition to 3rd Edition to increase the difference.

[Andurbal]

I was wondering how Neb appeared in BG1, but I couldn't remember at all.

When you get arrested by the Flaming Fist (and you don't have Shar-Teel in your party), you find Neb in a cell and he helps you escape the prison. By that time (according to the quiz he puts you to answer) he has killed about 30 little childern... Very nice personality , indeed....

[dragon wench]

Well... [url="http://files.myopera.com/DragonWench/albums/37360/gnome%20description.png"]here[/url] is the BG2 description of a gnome at character creation.
It seems to state quite clearly that gnomes are kin to dwarves.....

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnome_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)"]Wikipedia[/url], for whatever it's worth says:

"In the Dungeons & Dragons fantasy role-playing game, gnomes are a humanoid race, and are one of the core races available for play as player characters. They are closely related to dwarves, but are more tolerant of other races and of magic, and are skilled with machines and illusions. Gnomes are Small sized creatures, standing 3 to 3 1/2 feet tall."

A [url="http://www.wowwiki.com/Gnome"]Wow Wiki[/url], meanwhile, says:

"Thriving within the wondrous techno-city of Gnomeregan, the gnomes shared the resources of the forested Dun Morogh peaks with their dwarven cousins. Though the dwarves of Ironforge also have a propensity for technology and engineering, it is the gnomes who provide the critical, visionary designs for most of the dwarves' weapons and steam vehicles."

*shrugs* Though, I wouldn't say I'm any expert in D&D lore, so I'm certainly open to hearing more on this query.

@Andurbal,
That part I did remember, I just couldn't recall if he was characterised as a gnome or a dwarf

[Galuf the Dwarf]

Remember, Wikipedia is ambiguous in its contributions.

Just checked the 3.5 Player's Handbook, the 3.5 Monster Manual entry on gnomes, and the 3rd Edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. No mention of gnomes as akin to dwarves. Even Races of Faerun seems to not support this idea.

Also. WoWWiki is based solely on Warcraft lore.

[dragon wench]

Hmmm...
Well I know Wikipedia isn't always the most reliable, which I think I implied

I don't have access to the various handbooks you mention, but it seems to me, and certainly for the purposes of this thread, that the BG2 developers, at the very least, viewed gnomes and dwarves as related.
The one screenshot I posted does point in that direction:

[QUOTE= BG2 char. creation screen]"Gnomes: Kin to dwarves, gnomes are noticeably smaller than their distant cousins. Gnomes, as they proudly maintain, are also less rotund than dwarves."[/QUOTE]

But, like I said, I'm no expert, and I'm certainly not refuting the material in your D&D manuals. All I'm really saying is that there is a pretty obvious implication in BG2 that a relationship exists between the two. So, for the game developers, at a minimum, there was indeed a connection, distant though it may have been.

[Andurbal]

BG1 Neb lines

When u meet Neb in the FF prison he says some things that i think support the idea of him being a gnome. He says:
"Useful gadgets I have, yes I do" and
"Heh, good thing ol Neb decided to mix a little bit of illusioncraft with his thievery, heh? Sure, sure..."