Party of Convenience

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:16 pm

This party began as an idle musing about what I find necessary for low-frustration parties. I define low frustration as having the spells/skills/classes to meet particular challenges with ease. What is the least frustrating party you've ever run through the game?

In no particular order, here is my list of "necessary" skills - have I missed anything?:

* Great dialogue skills

* High Disable Device/Search

* "Defensive" tank with evasion and spell resistance

* High level sorceror (relative to party level, e.g. few or no levels in other classes, -1 ECL max)

* High level cleric (see above)

* A monk for the Eight Chambers

* Wilderness Lore

* Lightning spells for the Guardian

Accordingly, here is what I came up with. I'm not really soliciting character creation tweaks, as the party will be joining Oswald for the second time by the time I finish my next gaming session.

I should mention that I have installed the stackable items component of the mod, as well as the extra druid spells. Ditto the shapechange component, but I'm not using it at all after a little experimentation. It's too easy; remorhaz against snow trolls is unfair. It's definitely a mod for HoF, otherwise why are the damage resistances so high? I've also been playing around with level squatting, which is why some of the level comparisons below are a little off.

1) Rogue/Bard (Human) - currently Ro2/Brd11. Level progression was Ro1-Bard5-Ro2-squat-Bard11. Rogue levels for evasion and class access to Intimidate, Bard levels for songs and spells, Bluff and Diplomacy. Now has GSF: Enchantment, 15+ ranks in all talking skills, and buff spells. Covers off dialogue requirements and numerous buff spells, freeing up spell slots of sorceror and cleric, since my wizard is lagging behind in levels. Originally planned to add one more rogue level and four fighter levels, but I might not. Bards are a "special" spellcaster, in the sense that they do not access their highest level spells until bard lvl 26. Also, this character hasn't killed anything since a Malarite at the Shaengarne Dam, so it's not like I need weapon specialization. Do you recommend continuing all the way with the bard, or taking a few fighter levels?

2) Monk/Illusionist (Deep Gnome) - currently Mk10/Ill1. Level progression was Ill1-Mk10. Hoping to end as Mk20/Ill10. Covers off my defensive tank and monk requirements. Has the illusionist level for minor spell assistance, and learning spells. This is an experimental character, to see if I can "improve" on the generic monk. For those interested, AC gets into the high 40s when buffed and using Expertise. I think I could get higher for short periods of time, but why bother? I can't remember the last time this character got hit on anything less than a critical. I could add Shield to my regular buffs to up the AC into the low 50s, I think.

3) Pal/Sorc (Aasimar) - currently Pal2/Sorc10. Level progression was Sorc6-Pal2-Sorc10. Standard bomber. No buff spells except Shield, Mirror Image, and Stoneskin.

4) Ro/Ftr/Pal/Wiz (Drow) - currently Ro3/Pal3/Wiz7. Level progression was Ro2-Pal3-Wiz7-Ro3. A mid-game rogue level means you have a high level-based cap on your skills, allowing me to put ~15 points into the disable device and search skills - I hate just walking through traps, and having to buff up to disable traps in the later game, as you often have to do with a Ro2. The character wasn't very good as a Ro/Pal, but is now a capable archer, caster, and melee fighter. This character got How to Be an Adventurer because I needed to give a boost to the wizard levels.

5) Barb/Ftr/Druid (Human) - currently Barb1/Druid12. Level progression was Druid1-Barb1-Druid12. Took 2 ranks of Wilderness Lore as a barbarian and 2 more as a druid, which was enough to get through the Fell Woods with ease. Concentration is not as high as it could be, because my low Int meant I had to put more points into Spellcraft to overcome the negative Int modifier to get elemental feats. I'm playing the character as the primary damage-dealer to enemy melee units, either with spells or weapons.

6) Cleric of Lathander (Aasimar) - currently Cl13. Your standard healer and buffer, with some offensive capabilities. I went with a low Int, average Cha build to try and get some use out of Turn Undead. The downside is that I won't get Spirit of Flame any time soon, although I do have GSF: Evocation.

Claudius · Post by **Claudius** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:04 am

Sounds good. One thing stuck out at me was 'monk for 8 chambers'. I always found a sorceror or cleric with animate dead more useful. Especially a sorceror with invisibility MI animate dead. You cast those undead and stay out of trouble and they can pretty much win the battles for you.

But thats the one thing I thought of and its already included in having high level sorceror/cleric. Truth be told I never tried 8 chambers as monk but I suspect its much harder than using summons even with the evasion/unarmed attack.

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:45 pm

Well, a good monk (Expertise or not) only gets hit on a critical. My monk only got hit twice (and evaded/resisted all flamestrikes) in the Chamber of Immolation. I do use a sorceror for the Chamber of Silk. I've used several classes of characters in the 8 Chambers, and (for me anyway) the monk relies the least on luck.

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:13 am

I've read (can't remember where) that there's some Monk bug involving unarmed attacks. Something along the lines of if you get a BAB from any other class, you won't gain the extra ApR of the Monks unarmed attacks.

Even if this isn't true, you might be better off with a single-classed DG Monk.

I've had great success with a Drow Bard. Their stat bonuses are perfect for the class (bonuses to INT, DEX, and CHA), and both multiclass options are interesting (I'd pick Bane if you choose a female Drow for the dialogue bonuses, as well as the many Enchantment bonus spells, and Wizard is a nice choice for male Drow because most Bards need a high INT for all the skills you need).

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:23 pm

I've read the same. I'm not sure if it's been resolved; I'll test it at some point. If it hasn't, I might just keep that character as a monk. It won't affect the normal game, anyway, as the single illusionist level doesn't add a BAB, and the character will continue to add monk levels at least until monk lvl 20. I'm well aware that a single classed monk might be better, but if there is no BAB problem, I could end up with a high level monk with significant illusionist levels, which may be more effective (and certainly has more combat options and potentially more durability) than a single class monk. It's an experiment.

The bard is mostly in my party for songs and dialogue, with spells as a sideline. As such, quicker levelling meant quicker access to War Chant. I wanted rogue levels for class access to Intimidate, so that rules out drow, because I was not willing to take an XP penalty. The character squats a fair bit, so the higher level isn't an issue. An extra feat, an extra skill point, and 2 more levels is a fair tradeoff for 4 stat points and their attendent bonuses.

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:53 pm

I just tested the monk BAB issue, and a BAB from another class does indeed interfere with the monk's "special" BAB for unarmed attacks.

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:41 pm

So Aerich, what are you going to do now? Take 1 or 2 levels of Illusionist and not screw with the BAB, or go Monk 30, or just say "screw it" and go Monk 20/Ill 10?

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:44 pm

I'm not sure. I will have to cross that bridge when I come to it; the party is currently in Chult in the normal game, average lvl 13. It really does seem a shame to mess up the monk's unarmed BAB.

The character already has 1 Illusionist level and 2 Ill levels will mess up the unarmed BAB (I saved, levelled as an Illusionist, checked, and reloaded to level as a monk). 1 lvl of Illusionist is useful even just for additional options, as it allows the character to use wizard items.

I might squat for a bit at Ill1/Mk20 to see how well the character does in terms of dealing damage and avoiding damage. I see the decision as a choice between going for a "true" decoy (e.g. trading illusionist levels/lower BAB off against significantly better offensive melee ability) and having an essentially pure-class monk with minor other benefits. If the monk is getting rocked, I'll take some illusionist levels.

I often make individual character decisions based on my assessment of how well the party is doing as a unit. If I feel low on melee capability, I will continue as a monk. If I have some latitude to experiment, I might just try the illusionist.

Either way, it's a disappointing bug. The character can still be effective, but the potential is there to be greater if the bug didn't mess things up.

Edit: hang on, I just checked something. A lvl 20 monk has a "normal" (e.g. armed) BAB of +15/+10/+5. With a couple BAB from illusionist levels, it should still get 4 natural attacks/round. The real difference is the BAB rating of the 3rd and 4th attacks. It might not be so bad to take the illusionist levels - any real "tank" (as opposed to a 1-round meatshield enabling casters to get off their spells) in HoF should be pumped full of spells anyway, so it shouldn't be too bad to get the adjusted BAB somewhat higher.

I'll have to think about/test this decision. Others are welcome to weigh in with any considerations I may have missed.

Redrake · Post by **Redrake** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 11:59 am

Drow paladin?

Not much roleplaying.

My favorite party would be:
Aasimar Paladin of Mystra/Abjurer
Half-elf Ranger/Fighter (4lv)
Shield Dwarf Watcher of Helm/Fighter (4lv)
Drow Druid
Tiefling Bard (lv11)/Rogue
Moon Elf Sorcerer(ess)

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 12:46 pm

Redrake wrote:Drow paladin? Not much roleplaying.

Why not?

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 2:03 pm

Well, this particular party wasn't built for roleplaying, it was built for my own convenience. I don't choke on the drow paladin, I choke on having both rogue levels and paladin levels in the same character.

That's a little harder to justify.

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 7:30 pm

Aerich wrote:I choke on having both rogue levels and paladin levels in the same character. That's a little harder to justify.

Alright, I'll ask you also:

Why?

A Rogue is NOT (necessarily) a Thief. Locksmiths, scouts, ect. can all justifiably have levels in the Rogue class.

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 10:58 pm

Maybe reduce it to a skills-based analysis, then. I concede the point on Hide, Move Silently, Use Magic Device, and at a stretch, Open Locks.

Don't forget, a character that is or can become a paladin must have a Lawful Good alignment. As such, they are more likely to be respectful of other peoples' property and are less likely to serve the cause of what they believe to be justice by utilizing shady or "unlawful" methods, even if the laws make no sense to a LG character, as would be the case in drow society. I interpret LG to be an alignment where the character tries to do good within the current socio-political system, even if it requires changing the system, rather than ignoring the system when convenient or ignoring the system at whim, as would be the case with neutral and chaotic characters, respectively. A LG character in general will not go into areas where it is forbidden to go, and places where people are allowed to be are not likely to be trapped, so Search and Disable Device are "iffy" skills for a paladin. Pick Pockets is almost definitely out. Going back to 2nd Ed, thieves could not have a LG alignment, which may also be part of my bias.

It is certainly possible to come up with a story by which you can justify a paladin/rogue, but it may require some suspension of disbelief, and does, for me.

Redrake · Post by **Redrake** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 12:54 am

Yes, 3E made a lot of mess ups when they made the alignments. Not only LG rogues, but why not bards of lawful alignment. Or rangers with only good alignment like in 2E (basically a ranger wouldn't do evil acts in the forest, like burning or rampage killing animals anyway). Not to mention all the cleric kits with alignments that kind of contradict the alignment of their respective deities.

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 1:15 am

One of the things that gets me about the clerics is their skills. Demarcks of Mask have to take basic rogue skills as cross-class skills if the want them, despite class-based bonuses to stealth skills, Stormlords of Talos get Diplomacy as a class skill but not Intimidate, Lorekeepers of Oghma get a class-based +1 to their Alchemy skill but have to take it as a cross-class skill, etc.

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:48 am

Aerich, in your opening post you said that you want a monk for the 8 chambers. I currently do not have a Monk in my party, but I'm doing okay at these things.

Is there some other bonus if I use a Monk?

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 1:42 pm

Nope. I just like using a monk there. Naturally high AC, evasion, and no need to rest in between chambers.

Have you reached the last chamber yet?

Redrake · Post by **Redrake** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:21 pm

The monk is the easiest way of passing through all chambers. OTOH, a sorcerer or a druid might have good chances to getting too if the monk is not available. In the 8th chamber that's particularly true if you have some fire elemental summoning spell.

Crucis · Post by **Crucis** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:22 am

Redrake wrote:The monk is the easiest way of passing through all chambers. OTOH, a sorcerer or a druid might have good chances to getting too if the monk is not available. In the 8th chamber that's particularly true if you have some fire elemental summoning spell.

Not sure that I'd want to try the 8th with a druid. Without the ability to go invisible or protect from evil (for your elementals), it's going to be tough to get a fire elemental to ignore you and deal with the monks.

OTOH, Sorc or Cleric works fine. Summon fire elemental, then cast Invisibility or Sanctuary, and run away from the fire blasts.

Redrake · Post by **Redrake** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:04 am

Yes, the druid is definitely not that much recommended for the 8th chamber, but it can be done. Druid however shines in all the other chambers because he/she can summon animals to use as fodder and summon magical weapons. Not to mention the chamber of silk. By that time a druid should be immune to poison.