help with illusionist?

[mistered]

I have played with 6 parties and they all got to the end oflevel 4 of Dragon's eye. I now want to start another party which will include a illusionist; since people said that to get through HoW, an illusionist is essential. I know nothing about the spells of illusionist and it is said that blur and blindness are not good spells. Mirror image is ok but only defensively.

Can you just give me some pointers such as a couple of good spells?

[Redrake]

Illusionist? They are fools. An illusionist can't cast necromancy and abjuration spells. Necromancy are among the best spells in the game, like skull trap, finger of death or death spell. Abjuration also have very good defensive spells. I never, ever use illusionists and I finished the game dozens of times. It is definitely not essential.
The best mage is abjurer. They only lose the Alteration spells (means no haste, but that's not a big issue if you are using a support spellcaster like a bard).

[Aerich]

There is no need to have an illusionist (or any specialist wizard) to succeed in HoW. I'd rank a druid as much more of a "necessary" class for HoW than a specialist wizard (for Stalker and for damage resistances while shapechanged). However, you can complete the entire game, including expansions, with any reasonably balanced party.

I generally only use an illusionist if I want a gnome support character (gnomes cannot be regular mages, thus an illusionist/thief or illusionist/cleric) or a spellsword (dual class or multiclass fighter/illusionist). For the reasons Redrake mentioned (loss of access to magic schools), I always have another arcane caster in parties that include a specialist.

With the way that specialist wizards were implemented in IWD, the specialist does not even have to cast any spells from its own school. You could create an illusionist that casts only evocation spells. Spell choice is up to you.

"Good" spells are situation-dependent. Ideally, you want a mix of direct damage, area damage, and party support spells (e.g. Web, Confusion) so your mage/specialist can maximize its impact in important battles.

If I was you, I'd take one of those six parties and play it through. Having survived that long, any of them can probably finish the game.

[mistered]

re: illusionist

Well, thanks.

[kmonster]

I disagree with Redrake. With HoW lllusionists are the best specialist mages imho.
Abjurers loose more than the alteration school.
You can easily live without skull trap, finger of death or death spell, abjuration spells aren't really that useful either, but haste is the best mage spell in the whole game, and it's not the only powerful spell you loose when playing an abjurer.

But specialist mages aren't really neccessary, unspecialised mages can learn all mage spells, specialists just can cast a few more spells before they have to rest.
With only one mage in the party I wouldn't specialise, only with a backup (bard or other (specialist) mage) available.
Even a bard or triple-class mage is sufficient for the arcane part.

I prefer playing a dualclassed fighter>illusionist over a pure illusionist any time.


.

[Klorox]

I like Illusionists a lot, but it's for two stranger reasons:

1)Gnomes can be multiclassed Illusionists (I'm not a fan of a single-classed Wizard in IWD1).

2)All of the 9th level spells in this game can be cast by an Illusionist. Since my "ultimate party" includes a Bard (they can cast up to 8th level spells), I can cast every spell in the game.

[Redrake]

I disagree with Redrake. With HoW lllusionists are the best specialist mages imho.
Abjurers loose more than the alteration school.
You can easily live without skull trap, finger of death or death spell, abjuration spells aren't really that useful either, but haste is the best mage spell in the whole game, and it's not the only powerful spell you loose when playing an abjurer.

Do you hear yourself? Illusionist are the best, because they can use haste? Why not choosing a transmuter then? Or a Necromancer?
Skull trap not useful? Is one of the best spells in the game because it gets better with each level and it doesn't have a maximum of damage, it always improves.
Finger of death is also very useful especially in HoF mode, instakill spells are great to have. Even big bosses sometimes fail the save and die.
On top of that, haste can be cast by a bard, which is what any party should have.

[mistered]

re: illusionist

Portraying an illusionist as a loony doesn't help, and his spells are mostly not hard hitting. However, I am now at level 6 and have found one good spell (invisibility). This spell helps make thing much easier in many occasions. Besides that, I don't know of any other good spell from illusionist.

I thought (haste) is an abjurer's spell?

[Redrake]

No, haste is alteration. Meaning Transmuter spell. Abjuration are defensive spells like globes of invulnerability or some good all around spells like Dispel Magic or Resist Fear.
There is one other good alteration spell, but most players ignore it (or they don't know about how good it is), Shocking Grasp. It is a touch spell, Level 1, but it is very good at high levels. And it has 2 major benefits, there's no ST and it always hits.

[kmonster]

Do you hear yourself? Illusionist are the best, because they can use haste? Why not choosing a transmuter then? Or a Necromancer?

Did you have problems with reading my post ?

I wrote that illusionist are the best specialist mages imho.
I made a statement that iIllusionists are the best imho, not a description why. (such a detailed description would take a lot of space),
The reasoning was about why illusionists are better than abjurers.

[Aerich]

Mirror Image is a fantastic spell for any fighter/wizard character, and is good as a strictly defensive measure for non-warrior spellcasters if your line gets broken. I'd rank Improved Invisibility as the second best illusionist spell. Mass Invisibility and the like are useful in certain situations.

The point is, however, that illusionists are not restricted to illusion spells. An illusionist can cast evocation spells as easily as an evoker.

[kmonster]

Some powerful spells your illusionist can cast:

L1: magic missile, chromatic orb
L2: web,strength,cat's grace, mirror image
L3: haste, fireball, slow, flame arrow, summon monster 1
L4: stoneskin, emotion courage, emotion hope, emotion hopelessness, confusion, shadow monsters, improved invisibility

[Redrake]

Oh, for God's sake, the problem is not what they can cast but what they cannot.
Illusionist:
L1: Protection from Evil
L2: Horror, Resist Fear
L3: Dispel Magic, Protection from Magic Missile, Skull Trap,
L4: Beltyn's Burning Blood, Minor Globe of Invulnerability, Spirit Armour
L6: Antimagic Shell, Death Spell, Globe of Invulnerability, Lich Touch, Soul Eater
L7: Finger of Death, Seven Eyes
L8: Mind Blank, Abi-Dalzim’s Horrid Wilting
vs Abjurer:
L1: Shocking Grasp,
L2: Blur, Mirror Image, Strength, Cat's Grace
L3: Haste, Slow
L5: Lower Resistance
L6: Disintegrate, Tenser's Transformation
L7: Suffocate
L8: Incendiary Cloud.

That's 18 good spells that the Illusionist loses vs 12 good spells that the Abjurer loses.

[kmonster]

Your list is not complete. Invisibility, improved invisibility, shadow monsters, demi-shadow monsters and shades are also good illusions spells the abjurer can't cast.
I also consider some spells you call good quite useless.

Just comparing numbers isn't the best way to decide which school is better, 1 eartshaking spell is better than 100 mediocre spells.
Among the spells the illusionist misses isn't an earthshaking one.
PfE is nice, but not earthshaking
Horror - It's annoying running after fleeing enemies and it can even be dangerous if they flee towards some other enemy groups,
I never had to use "remove fear".
Dispel magic can be cast by the other party casters.
Prot from normal missiles - strong enemies who shoot normal missiles are rare.
Skull trap might be nice, but I prefer fireball which looks cooler and has a higher area of effect. The cold-used creatures of the north are also more vulnerable to fire. The fact that ST is uncapped isn't that important, for most of the game (until level 10) both spells do the same damage and mages don't reach very high levels in the game.
"Beltyn's Burning Blood, Minor Globe of Invulnerability, Spirit Armour" are hardly even worth memorizing.
"Antimagic Shell, Death Spell, Globe of Invulnerability, Lich Touch, Soul Eater" aren't very useful either.
"Finger of death" isn't much better than the level 1 spell "chromatic orb", "Seven eyes" mainly protects from one attack.
"Mind Blank" is not worth casting, the level 4 cleric spell "protection from evil 10'" helps more and affects the whole party.
"Abi-Dalzim’s Horrid Wilting" isn't as good as "powerword:blind" which I'd rather put into the few level 8 spell slots available.

"Mirror image" is earthshaking, one cast can be more useful than 100 hitpoints if you are facing hard hitting enemies. One "strength" or "cat's grace" cast on a party member can increase the damage outcome of many attacks, blur grants +3 AC for a long time.
"Haste" is earthshaking, it doubles your party's fighting power, more useful than all spells illusionists cannot cast together.
There are other very useful illusion spells like "improved invisibility" for example.

There's also another reason why abjurers aren't that great. Illusionists get 16 dex for granted why abjurers are forced to waste 15 points into useless wisdom. So they are missing at least 5 stat points in the useful stats.

[Redrake]

Your list is not complete. Invisibility, improved invisibility, shadow monsters, demi-shadow monsters and shades are also good illusions spells the abjurer can't cast.

Invisibility? Take a thief. Once you get through the game once, those spells are obsolete. All the shadow monsters have less hp's (only 20% or 40%) than the original monsters. Is that so good?

Horror - It's annoying running after fleeing enemies and it can even be dangerous if they flee towards some other enemy groups,

It works if you have large bunch of enemies, like in Temple of the Forgotten God.

Dispel magic can be cast by the other party casters.

So are the spells that an abjurer can't cast. That's not an argument for illusionist.

Prot from normal missiles - strong enemies who shoot normal missiles are rare.

Despite what it says in the description most of the missiles are normal. Tarnished Sentries in Lower Dorn's Deep can be a real challenge without this spell.

Skull trap might be nice, but I prefer fireball which looks cooler and has a higher area of effect

Skull traps can be used on advancing enemies and unlike fireball they always improve with the level.

The cold-used creatures of the north are also more vulnerable to fire. The fact that ST is uncapped isn't that important, for most of the game (until level 10) both spells do the same damage and mages don't reach very high levels in the game.

Level 10? A single class mage reaches about level 19 in the normal game and godhood if you move to HoF mode (I suspect you didn't tried that yet since you count so much on evocation spells)

"Beltyn's Burning Blood, Minor Globe of Invulnerability, Spirit Armour" are hardly even worth memorizing.

And all the demi-shadows crappy soells are? Globe of Invulnerabilities can be life saviors when dealing with powerful mages.

Antimagic Shell, Death Spell, Globe of Invulnerability, Lich Touch, Soul Eater" aren't very useful either.

Ok, that's a real laugh. Death spell not useful? It can instakill creatures no matter how many hp's they have and there's no ST. Lich Touch makes your mage immune to paralysis, Soul Eater can instakill enemies and turn them into friendly skeletons.

"Finger of death" isn't much better than the level 1 spell "chromatic orb"

No? Finger of death means instakill, while Chromatic Orb is most of the time resisted. Also Chromatic Orb at most paralyzes an enemy. Finger of death kills/.

Seven eyes" mainly protects from one attack.

Depends on the attack. But can also be used on attack.

Mind Blank" is not worth casting, the level 4 cleric spell "protection from evil 10'" helps more and affects the whole party.

Did you even check what the spell does? It protects your mage from all mind-affecting spells and last for 1 day. Is not the same with protection from evil. And once again you are using spells from other type of characters to bring arguments for illusionist.

"Abi-Dalzim’s Horrid Wilting" isn't as good as "powerword:blind" which I'd rather put into the few level 8 spell slots available.

And why not having them both? There are no level 8 spells from the illusion school.

There's also another reason why abjurers aren't that great. Illusionists get 16 dex for granted why abjurers are forced to waste 15 points into useless wisdom. So they are missing at least 5 stat points in the useful stats.

Forced? You really have no clue how the rolls work do you? Every character gets a minimum of stats and then points to roll. Having 16 dex or 16 wis doesn't matter, they get the same number of rolls. You can distribute them as you want. with some extra wis you might get lore bonus, while you can also boost your dex and con.
If you want those spells from the alteration, use a bard. Combine a bard with an abjurer, not with an illusionist. A bard can cast spells that an abjurer can't (strength, haste, cat's grace) better because those are of low level. However, an abjurer shines when it comes to spells of medium to high level, which an illusionist is unable to cast.

[kmonster]

1. Invisibility adds a lot of options, improved invisibility also adds +4 AC and saving throws, the shadow summoning spells get better with levels and can even summon trolls which are unkillable without fire or acid.

2. Web is a level 2 spell that works usually better than horror.

3. "dispel magic" can even be cast by clerics, it's no big deal having the cleric dispel instead of the mage, but no one can cast "mirror image" for him.

4. The tarnished sentries are nearly the only ones where you might benefit from this spell. At this point of the game you can just use a few summons until they run out of ammo or send your cleric with "entropy shield" to absorb the thrown axes.

5.+6. Fireball has also the advantadge that you can make your characters immune to fire damage easily which opens new tactical options.
Including TotL you reach about 15,000,000 XP during a normal game, so in a normal party of 6 even a single class mage will only reach level 16 at the very end of the game. I soloed HoF mode with a cleric/mage and he never needed to use skull trap. Disabling and summoning spells are far more useful than direct damage spells in HoF mode.

7. The shadow summoning spells are more useful are the globes. When facing high level mages there are better things to do than making one character immune to low level spells. I never bothered to cast those spells.

8. According to the description "Death spell" seems to be only for low level monsters and I don't want to waste high level spells for them. If this spell also works on bosses, which I doubt, you are right. "Free action" also gives immunity to paralysis, lasts longer and is a level 4 spell, soul eater yields only skeletons if the victims die from the little damage dealt and 3 HD undead aren't powerful.

9. Finger of death is as easily to resist as chromatic orb. Both spells take the victim out of combat for the whole battle (no battle lasts 13 rounds) if the save is failed.

10. The offensive abilities aren't very good considering it's a level 7 spell.

11. Did you read what PfE does ? It's far more useful. My parties had always PfE 10' cast on them, giving them immunity to charm spells, +2 AC and +2 all saves. The only situation where MB would have been useful was vs hopelessness spells, but when the party members have less than 1,000,000 XP each they don't benefit from a spell which needs a caster with 2,250,000 XP to cast it. Even then PWB would have helped more and the cleric could easily turn them.

12. You only get 2 level 8 spell slots near the very end of the game, just too precious to waste them for something else than PWB.

13. I know how the rolls work, do you ? Since illusionists get granted 16 and abjurers only granted 15 they can exspect to get slightly better rolls average.
You cannot distribute the rolls as you want, illusionists can't lower dex beyond 16 while abjurers cannot lower wis beyond 15. If you have 28 points left to distribute for dex and wis together the illusionist can have 18 dex and 10 wis, while the abjurer has to take at least 15 wis and can't take more than 13 dex. So the illusionist would get +4 AC and +2 ranged thac0 compared to a little useless lore bonus for the abjurer.
I once created a fighter for dualing to mage with stats like 18/00-18-18-18-10-4. For being able to dual to abjurer I would have had to cripple either strength, dex, or con.
If you want a pure mage you can also get the gnome bonusses when taking illusionist, like 19 int and +5 in two saving throws.
If you have a party with bard or another mage, he can't protect the abjurer by casting mirror image or blur for him.

[Klorox]

If you want a pure mage you can also get the gnome bonusses when taking illusionist, like 19 dex and +5 in two saving throws.

19 INT, but who's counting?

BTW, Gnome Fighter/Illusionists are awesome, and Thief/Illusionists are fine as your teams primary mage.