Swiss man jailed for Thai insult

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 4:22 am

A Swiss man has been jailed for ten years in Thailand for th heinous offence of insulting the monarch!

BBC NEWS | World | Asia-Pacific | Swiss man jailed for Thai insult

I guess I wont be going to Thailand for a while, not that visiting military dictatorships is on my 'to do' list anyway.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:32 am

As somebody living in a country were practically nothing is "sacred" it always puzzle me how people can think and act like this. It's scary.
Royalty and government (amongst other things) are constant targets for ridicule/jokes in this country

Sure vandalism should be punished of course (not with 10 years though), but "insulting the monarch" ....... come on

Moonbiter · Post by **Moonbiter** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:02 am

Actually, I find this pretty amusing. There is a saying that goes something like "When in Rome..." We're dealing with an alcoholic moron who has been living in Thailand for 10 years, and should be aware of their worship of their king. He behaved like a jerk because he couldn't buy alcohol on a holy day, and I think it's perfect that they threw him jail. He's not gonna be there for 10 years, but maybe it will teach him to stop being a jackas*. There is actually laws about insulting royalty here too, but they're hardly enforced. :laugh: I would be deep in the fertilizer if they were....:mischief:

mr_sir · Post by **mr_sir** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:10 am

We have laws saying it is illegal to deface the Queen's head on coins etc. so I can understand them being upset about stuff like that, although I don't think that particular law is enforced over here and even the press ridicule our monarchy lol.

I agree he should have had some form of punishment because it was mindless vandalism, but prison is just a bit extreme :speech:

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:41 am

Moonbiter wrote:Actually, I find this pretty amusing. There is a saying that goes something like "When in Rome..." We're dealing with an alcoholic moron who has been living in Thailand for 10 years, and should be aware of their worship of their king. He behaved like a jerk because he couldn't buy alcohol on a holy day, and I think it's perfect that they threw him jail. He's not gonna be there for 10 years, but maybe it will teach him to stop being a jackas*.

Have to agree with this. It's not as though the near-deification of the Thai monarch in his homeland is a surprise. I've Thai friends, and have seen pictures of ordinary shops, where a large portrait of the king is always present, usually wreathed with fresh flowers. Messages by him replace all television and radio broadcasts. Hell, if you even go into a Thai restaurant here in the US, you'll always find a veritable shrine to the king in a curiously stiff photo pose, with incense and flowers below.

So this guy did the unthinkable while drunk. I'm not surprised at the Thai reaction. I'm just curious what could have been going through his drink-sodden mind while he did it. Clearly he understood something about the laws, to be going around targeting posters of the king and nothing else. Did he believe himself invincible, as a foreigner? Was his Calvinist upbringing rearing its head while his commonsense vaporized? Did he simply fall into foreigner-itis, that belief which states all foreign travel comprises nothing but mall trips among silly sub-cultures in your native land?

Regardless, he'll probably spend a year or less in prison. I imagine the Swiss government will work to clear this matter up as quickly as possible, and the Thais under their new regime certainly don't need bad publicity abroad.

Cuchulain82 · Post by **Cuchulain82** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:33 am

Xandax wrote:As somebody living in a country were practically nothing is "sacred" it always puzzle me how people can think and act like this.

I'm with Fable and Moonbiter on this one- if you don't acknowledge the Thai population's incredible deification of the King means you will be confused. It seems ridiculous to me as well, but someone who's lived in Thailand should have known better.

DesR85 · Post by **DesR85** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:59 am

Well, I'm not surprised about this. For someone like him to have lived 10 years in that country, he should have been well aware that defacing the King's portrait will result in a lot of trouble sooner or later.

galraen wrote: I guess I wont be going to Thailand for a while, not that visiting military dictatorships is on my 'to do' list anyway.

Well, I was lucky that I went to Thailand on a vacation 3 years ago. Way before the military uprising and the Muslim uprising ever occurred.

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:12 am

I can't believe there are people actually defending the Thais on this. Sure, if you live in the country you'd be aware that you'd tick people off, and should expect a term of community service. But prison! For 10 years, with th judge saying it would have been 20 if he hadn't pleaded guilty! That's barbaric IMHO. I obviously got a very wrong impression about some people on this forum.

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:23 am

galraen wrote:I can't believe there are people actually defending the Thais on this. Sure, if you live in the country you'd be aware that you'd tick people off, and should expect a term of community service. But prison! For 10 years, with th judge saying it would have been 20 if he hadn't pleaded guilty! That's barbaric IMHO. I obviously got a very wrong impression about some people on this forum.

Nobody's defending the Thai laws that I can see--we're simply saying they exist, they're well known in Thailand, and the guy would have to be an idiot or deranged or a deranged, drunken idiot to do what he did. It's analagous to opening a flower shop in an alleyway used in some city for gangland killings. We're not condoning the killings if we point out after the shop has been trashed that the guy who put it up there was begging for trouble.

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:29 am

fable wrote:Nobody's defending the Thai laws that I can see--we're simply saying they exist, they're well known in Thailand, and the guy would have to be an idiot or deranged or a deranged, drunken idiot to do what he did. It's analagous to opening a flower shop in an alleyway used in some city for gangland killings. We're not condoning the killings if we point out after the shop has been trashed that the guy who put it up there was begging for trouble.

Fair enough, but I still can't believe that Thailand would jeopordise it's tourist industry like that. I would have thought that after the Tsunami and the military coup, this is the last thing they needed.

QuenGalad · Post by **QuenGalad** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:40 am

The "insulting the head of the country" hysteria is actually quite widespread, and, depending on how far the terror goes in particular countries, it takes on different forms.

For example, people from North Corea, even when succesfully escaped to some other place, react hysterically when seeing someone fold paper money - the act being punished by prison there, because you have the face of the leader on it.

But you do not have to travel that far. Let's consider Poland. The current president is not loved by the nation (let's not ask why is he a president, all right?), and some months ago, a man homeless for 20 years, old and yes, drunk, but not very much, has been heard insulting verbally Lech Kaczynski (president) on the railway station where he sleeps. He was sued, not by anyone particular, but by the state... The very same state that left him homeless for 20 years. And was condemned for 1 year of prison.
How do you like it? Thailand can be quite close if you do not pay attention...

Maharlika · Post by **Maharlika** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:14 am

You talk of something you don't know about.

galraen wrote:I can't believe there are people actually defending the Thais on this. Sure, if you live in the country you'd be aware that you'd tick people off, and should expect a term of community service. But prison! For 10 years, with th judge saying it would have been 20 if he hadn't pleaded guilty! That's barbaric IMHO. I obviously got a very wrong impression about some people on this forum.

@galraen: Tell me, have you ever been to Thailand? If so, were you there long enough to understand the context in which this whole issue is all about?

Apparently no.

I'm not Thai but I have lived there for 6 meaningful years. And when I say lived, I would say I was very much immersed in the culture of my host country.

When I say lived, it is not living in posh places where rich foreigners go and immerse themselves in culture associated with cosmopolitan stuff and other urbanized things that are no different with living the high life in the city of any country.

What you don't see is the reason why the Thais adore their king that much --- short of worshipping him. Actually, some of them even consider him semi-divine.

What you see is the idea of monarchy based on your Western values and history. Brits find it okay or at least tolerable when their queen is the subject or butt of a joke. For the Thais, it's something that they don't even THINK about. It's like totally absurd even for a drunken or a mentally-challenged Thai to even think about it.

Much moreso, if you are talking about outright disrespect. For most Thais, this is akin to something blasphemous. It's like drawing a cartoon-graffitti of Mohammed in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.

The Thai King is well loved by his constituents not because they have to.

He is loved because THEY WANT TO.

That is something you don't often see in any country with a ruling or figure-head monarchy. I seriously doubt if there is any country aside from Thailand whose citizens respect and adore its King with intense zeal.

This king is well loved because they can see that he has spent his whole life serving his people. He goes to the countryside and helps his citizens by making them self-sufficient. He tries his best by making Royal projects THAT ACTUALLY WORK in helping his constituents live a decent life. This king, the longest reigning living monarch in the world has been doing all these things since he ascended the throne at age 17. If I'm not mistaken, he is now 79 if not 80. So, as far as his list of achievements, I would say it would be a long one spanning at least three generations if not four.

It is not his cup of tea of jet-setting and living the highlife with all those parties and stuff you associate with the rich and famous. This guy actually braves the sweltering heat and hikes to places not accessible by car just to be there and help his people. You would see a number of his pictures with him sweating it out.

If there is anyone close to that of an ideal king, that would be the Thai king. And believe me, I'm not exaggerating.

When Thailand was in the brink of a violent civil war, it was the king who stepped in, intervened, had the protagonists meet in his presence and put an end to the brewing conflict. He and only he had the clout to do such a thing. He rarely intervenes when it comes to politics. I bet he hates politics. But when he does step in, there had to be a very urgent and important reason to do so.

The recent fall from grace of then Prime Minister Shinawatra and the rise of the temporary military government would not have happened without the blessing of the king. This same military government would not last longer than they have to. The king will also make sure of that.

You must understand that laws of other countries may not conform with that of yours because culture is also involved. Ridiculous? Perhaps, as far as having the same type of law being mandated in your country.

Did you know that you can have your hand chopped off in Saudi Arabia because you were found guilty of stealing?

My point exactly.

Fair enough, but I still can't believe that Thailand would jeopordise it's tourist industry like that. I would have thought that after the Tsunami and the military coup, this is the last thing they needed.

Oh, how convenient.

Just because one gets to help in building the house and help with the family income doesn't mean that one can dishonor or disrespect the head of the family...

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 5:11 am

@Maharlika

It probably wont surprise you to know that Saudi Arabia has been on my list of places not to visit for decades.

'He is loved because THEY WANT TO.' or because they've been brainwashed? I strongly suspect the latter, and how would anyone know how they really think when the penalties for critising the monarchy are so draconian? If I was likely to get banged up for critising 'Thin Lizzy', I guess I'd keep pretty quiet about it too.

I'm sorry, but to me to hero worship someone just because they happen to be born in the right bed is pretty infantile.

'The recent fall from grace of then Prime Minister Shinawatra and the rise of the temporary military government would not have happened without the blessing of the king.'

I really had to laugh at that, so because the king didn't do anything to stop the military take over, he's a good guy?! 'Fall from grace', now there's a quaint way of saying overthrown by a military dictator!

Maharlika · Post by **Maharlika** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 5:38 am

Whatever rocks your boat.

galraen wrote:@Maharlika

It probably wont surprise you to know that Saudi Arabia has been on my list of places not to visit for decades.

That's totally beside the point. It is immaterial whether you would want to visit the said country or not. The gist of my argument lies on the contention that countries make their laws and a number of them were made according to their culture or social context... not yours nor the country in which you belong to.

'He is loved because THEY WANT TO.' or because they've been brainwashed? I strongly suspect the latter, and how would anyone know how they really think when the penalties for critising the monarchy are so draconian? If I was likely to get banged up for critising 'Thin Lizzy', I guess I'd keep pretty quiet about it too.

Foreigners who have been living in Thailand significantly long enough would laugh at you thinking that the Thais were brainwashed. Unlike religion, the Thai people can see proofs of what he has done and it is not surprising for common locals to have personal anecdotes involving their king.

Truth be told, I'm not surprised that this farang (foreigner) got sentenced for 10 years. What I was surprised of was that this bloke wasn't beaten to a pulp like a squashed eggplant by a mob right there and then.

I'm sorry, but to me to hero worship someone just because they happen to be born in the right bed is pretty infantile.

This is not "hero worship" the way you would trivially put it. What these people see is a father who ACTUALLY and SINCERELY does something to make their lives not miserable.

I really had to laugh at that, so because the king didn't do anything to stop the military take over, he's a good guy?! 'Fall from grace', now there's a quaint way of saying overthrown by a military dictator!

Laugh if you will. I understand where you are coming from and why you would think that way. You were not there. You never lived there. You don't fully realize the context of which you speak of. I don't want to sound condescending but your ignorance of the matter is a good enough excuse for me for the kind of thinking and position that you have articulated.

The military government is a temporary one. A transitional government if you will. It has been said that it would take just a year, two at the most, and then power will be handed back to a civilian government.

FYI: The civil war that I talked about was some time in the early 90's. It was the king who facilitated returning the power from the military to the people. If I'm not mistaken the same thing happened in the early 70's.

Perhaps when the king finally dies and the crown prince takes over, foreigners will realize that it is the person himself (King Bhumibol) and not his position as king, whom the Thais adored. I doubt if there would be an uproar that would be just as loud if the crown prince's image as king was the one violated.

I truly doubt that such zeal would be extended to the next king, especially if that would be the crown prince.

Vicsun · Post by **Vicsun** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 6:52 am

Mah, do you personally believe King Adulyadej would approve of this man's imprisonment?

Maharlika · Post by **Maharlika** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 7:47 am

Vicsun wrote:Mah, do you personally believe King Adulyadej would approve of this man's imprisonment?

To be honest? I think he is the kind of person who wouldn't care any less. I don't think he wouldn't bother putting attention to it. As far as I know, there are no official statements coming from the king as regard to this foreigner. Grandizing himself and making people think that he is a great man aren't things he even considers pondering on.

He'd rather get himself healthy so he could do his task of going to the countryside and see what else he can do for his people.

Another interesting thing to note:

There are rumors about indiscretion of some members of the Royal Family, and yes, even that of the queen, but the king? None.

What foreigners don't understand is that the laws of Thailand weren't made or decreed by the royal family. It was King Rama V (the present king is Rama IX) who relinquished the royal family's political power to govern, make laws and take care of the judicial system. He handed these powers to the people. It has always been that way since then.

If you will really be technical about it, the king isn't that legally mandated to interfere with the government.

He says what he wants to say and the people listen. More often than not, they follow.

DesR85 · Post by **DesR85** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:57 am

Maharlika wrote:To be honest? I think he is the kind of person who wouldn't care any less. I don't think he wouldn't bother putting attention to it. As far as I know, there are no official statements coming from the king as regard to this foreigner. Grandizing himself and making people think that he is a great man aren't things he even considers pondering on.

My thoughts exactly. This is a very small matter and nothing serious. As what some of them had mentioned previously, that Swiss man brought this trouble upon himself in the first place. Why make such a big fuss over something so obvious? There are more important things to worry about than this.

Minerva · Post by **Minerva** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 9:31 am

I agree with Mah, fable and co.

And, Galraen, did you bring this news up, if the man who was jailed was a Thai national? Or, even other Asian nationals, say, Vietnamese, Chinese, Philippino, or maybe an Iraqi? I suspect the answer is 'no'.

I am interested to see how the British will react when the new SouthPark show 'kills the queen'. Can they still be able to say, "It's only a cartoon!"...?

mr_sir · Post by **mr_sir** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 9:37 am

Minerva wrote:I am interested to see how the British will react when the new SouthPark show 'kills the queen'. Can they still be able to say, "It's only a cartoon!"...?

To be honest, I doubt it will bother most Brits. After reading the post of people who know a lot more about Thai culture than myself I can understand perfectly why the guy was jailed. We can't compare it to the British monarchy because there is very little respect left for our monarchy these days. If the Thai monarchy still has the respect and love of the nation then that guy really should have known better and I have actually changed my opinion and now agree with Mah and co. on this.

Cuchulain82 · Post by **Cuchulain82** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 10:06 am

Vicsun wrote:Mah, do you personally believe King Adulyadej would approve of this man's imprisonment?

Mah can correct me on this, but my understanding is that on similar issues the king has not favored strict penalties but the populace did. The one example I heard is the king speaking out against the jailing of people who had criticized him.

The little exposure that I've had to Thai culture informed me that the King is adored by the population. The Thais love the fact that Thailand was one of the very few southeast asian countries never colonized by the west, and that they are (one of) the longest continuious monarchies in the world- insulting the King is a serious no-no, because he is the embodiment of all Thais.

I've studied Thailand from afar for about six months- anyone who lived there should have known better. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse- if someone from Amsterdam were arrested for marijuana possession in the US, I wouldn't have sympathy either.