Party creation questions, and some other questions

Wraith[x] · Post by **Wraith[x]** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 10:17 am

So, I made myself yet another party.. I must've played the prologue about 15 times, but never got past the Fel Wood.. I keep thinking "You know what would be cool - Character X, with a bit of Y!" and rerolling a new party.

But this time, I want to be properly happy with my party, so I hopefully get through to the fabled HoF. I've read the UPPs (I even understood bits of them!) and pillaged them for bits and pieces, abandoned bits of them that seem too 'forced' and not enough fun, and come up with this party..

Shield Dwarf Fighter 4/Barb X 18/13/20/3/18/4
Tanky type, but with a big-assed axe to slice people to tiny little pieces with.
WS in Axes and Maces, Maximised attacks, Imp Crits, Cleave, etc etc. Skills in Hide, mainly because nothing else seemed tempting

Human Monk 1/Cleric X 18/18/16/3/18/3
Off-tank/Healer/Buffer/Summoner
Combat Casting, Subvocal Casting and mainly melee-based feats. Skills in Conc and Spellcraft.

Aasimar Sorceror 8/8/18/18/8/20 (Maybe with a level of Pally later for the saves)
Kaboom and diplomat
Spell Focus, Combat Casting, Nuke feats etc.. Conc, Spellcraft, Bluff, Intimidate, Diplomacy.

Drow Rogue 1/Diviner X 11/20/16/20/8/5
Kaboom, thiefy skills and loremaster
Same feats as the sorceror. Conc, Spellcraft, and trying to keep search, disarm trap, KA and Alchemy as high as I can

Now.. the questions..

1) About the Monk/Cleric - I'm planning to have her unarmoured, but wielding a weapon. As I understand it, she'd still get the AC bonus from wisdom if she wields a weapon, and her damage would actually be higher than unarmed. Is this right? Also, I was wanting some advice on her Cleric Domain. Does it make that much difference? Are there any domains that are particularly weak? I think I'm tempted by a Dreadmaster of Bane - would you think this is a decent choice?

2) Is it worth having the Rogue level for the Wizard? I was going to start him as a Rogue so he gets more skill points, because he's covering the rogue skills too - but if he was a pure Wizard, would his skills be high enough to pass the checks as I reach them? I'm not planning on picking any locks - the Dwarf will be too quick to smash em with his axe, or failing that there's always Knock

3) Would these guys work well enough to get to HoF? I read about needing 72 AC, which I doubt any of these would get to, judging from what I've read.

And some that aren't "rate my party plx"

4) When a spell has different effects depending on caster level, does it mean total level, or level of the class that's casting? Say for example I had a Sorceror 9/Paladin 1. Lay on Hands heals for 2x Paladin's Level - would this be 2, or 20? And a fireball that does 1d6 per level, would that be 9d6 or 10d6?

5) Is it possible to gain two stat bonuses of the same type from items? I had a ring with +1 Dexterity and Armour with +1 Dexterity in another game, but they only seemed to give +1 total bonus.

6) It says the elemental feats require 10 Spellcraft - is that before or after the Int bonus is added?

Thanks in advance

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 12:02 pm

Just off the top, I'd say that the Sorc's Int is too high. 14-16 is plenty, since you can quit taking Spellcraft ranks once you hit 10 total ranks, and 15 ranks is plenty in the talking skills. Note that the ranks are all affected by stat modifiers, so in terms of actual skill points you will need about 8 points to Spellcraft and 10 points to talking skills other than Intimidate. Put a few stat points into your Sorc's Dex (from Int, and maybe from Con and Wis), because it's nice to be able to use a crossbow, particularly early in the game. You will also need 2 levels of Pally for the saves bonus. Note that being a paladin may change your dialogue choices and prevent that character from accepting rewards.

I'd also say that 1 level in rogue isn't enough for me. I find it irritating to have to buff up Dex and hope in order to disable traps. Two levels of rogue also gives you Evasion, which rocks.

If your arcane might is one sorceror and one wizard/specialist type, take a wizard instead of a specialist. With only four characters, flexibility is a must. Unless you have some special reason for using four characters, I'd recommend taking six.

As for your questions...

1) Unarmored with weapon works fine. I'm not particularly fond of the domains of Helm, Selune, and Mask. Oghma is subtle, Talos and Lathander are bomber types, Ilmater has a small "quest" and crosses with monks and paladins, and Tempus is IMO the best early-game warrior cleric with class-based Weapon Focus in Axe (if taking a Battleguard, use a different two-handed weapon with the Fighter/Barb). A Dreadmaster gets a significant bonus and can be dominant with GSF: Enchantment. Lathander is also slightly the best healer because of domain access. For a first run through, I'd go with Tempus, Lathander, or Bane.

2) Yes. In fact, I'd recommend more (take a second and perhaps third in the mid-game). It will be a struggle for a wizard to pass all the checks as they arise, unless you take points from "wizard" skills. If you take a rogue level mid-game, you will not be constrained by the level limit on skills, and can put quite a few ranks into Search and Disable Device if you choose.

3) You don't "need" 72 AC, IMO. You need well-distributed stats (read: at least some min-maxing), a balanced and planned party, and good tactics above all else. 72 AC is nice to have, but not essential - however, having at least one high AC build can buy a lot of time in HoF. If planning for HoF, why not plan to take along another character or two? Five spellcasters is definitely better than 3. Add a cleric, druid, wizard, sorc, even a bard, and it will be easier. Just finish the game once, and you will figure out what works for you.

4) Spell effects use the level of the casting class. So, the answers to your examples would be 2 and 9d6.

5) Generally, no. The two key "stackable" areas are damage resistances and generic AC. Stat boosters do not stack, although there is at least one exception I can think of off the top of my head.

kmonster · Post by **kmonster** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 12:22 pm

1) You'll do more damage unarmed than armed, dreadmaster is decent choice
2) It's only a backup caster, so you can afford to start with a rogue level. You don't really need it, but you'll have more fun this way.
3) Those guys are good enough to get you to HoF. Getting through HoF mode is even easier than getting through normal mode because of the overpowered high level spells and equipment you'll have then. 72 AC is unneccessary, you can get through HoF even with 0 AC.
4)Level of the class that's casting.
5)No.
6)After the int bonus is added. So with 18 int you just need 6 skill points. Those are the only feats where the skill requirement works that way.

Jelaweb · Post by **Jelaweb** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 1:16 pm

1)
Firstly, having only one monk level will only give you 2 things - Evasion and WIS bonus to AC. Ignore everything else about the monk's abilities - including the unarmed fighting - for a single monk level.

Secondly, cleric domains. I see them as thus:
Battleguard of Tempus:
1) for newbie players who haven't really mastered the power of spells (or other cleric domains);
2) instead of a character with fighter-only classes.
Dreadmaster of Bane:
1) for high AC decoy-using powergamers;
2) for those who don't have many Enchantment spells amongst other spellcasters (i.e. no Bard!)
Demarch of Mask: My favourite domain! Unlike Aerich, I think these are great. Your Monk/Cleric becomes a great tank with the Blur/Mirror Image spells - especially an area after the Fell Wood, where you'll meet a few monks one-on-one...
Watcher of Helm: Weak in normal mode - excellent in HoF mode with Aegis - with the +2 generic AC "feat", can potentially be as good defensively as a Dreadmaster of Bane.
Painbearer of Ilmater: my 2nd favourite domain. With Emotion: Hope, Stoneskin and the Holy ??? spells, can be a great cast-then attack character.
Morninglord of Lathander: fire, fire, fire. I'm not a big fan of these, as my Sorcerers usually do the fire damage.
Stormlord of Talos: electricity, electricity, electricity. Excellent with attacking domain spells, but pretty poor defensively. A good mix-in level if your party has no full-time clerics, simply as
1) you'll need SOMEONE to cast those Raise Dead/Resurrection scrolls;
2) electricty resistance will have a use in the Fell Wood...

I cannot be bothered with the rest, as I don't really use them - so cannot give advice for decent tactics. These are how I see them - other players may disagree - so don't take my word as gospel.
One thing to note (which through spell testing is the gospel truth): Any variable length domain spells (i.e. those that last n rounds/level) are cast as though they are 1 level higher, except Recitiation, e.g. they would last n rounds/level + 1 round. It can make your choice of domain spells slightly more important than initially thought.

3)
Without 12 druid levels somewhere, you will struggle to reach an AC of 72+.
At a guess, your Rogue/Diviner is the only character that could get close to an AC of 72 (62-65ish, carrying a shield - and concentrating on DEX, rather than INT). All the others - pretty much no.
As for HoF, you only really need 1 character to reach an AC of 72 - even then some people can happily complete this mode without any high-AC decoy.
To get that AC of 72, you need a certain combination and classes, spells and feats - but as both Aerich and I have said, an AC of 72+ is not the be-all-and-end-all of HoF mode.

5)
The only stackable thing is STR/DEX items with Tensor's Transformation. Items do not stack with items, and items do not stack with any other spell.

6)
Before.
An INT 8 character requires 11 points to be spent in Spellcraft, while an INT 20 character only requires 5. However, stat enhancing items will not affect this, so you'll still need 11 points if an INT 8 character wears an item that increases INT by 2.

Wraith[x] · Post by **Wraith[x]** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:53 pm

Thanks for the replies guys

I was planning on taking only four people because then they'd level up faster, especially with having the ECL people (I never like taking them, especially in 6-man parties). And the most fun part of the game is getting new and exciting things to blow people up with ^_^

What experiences have you guys had with 4-man parties? Since I designed these, I've started having doubts.. I can see them either having to squat a lot, or becoming over-leveled for the enemies they're fighting, and getting no experience.. (I don't mind squatting, I did it when I first read the tip on the loading screen.. although I did it from about Level 2, which I now understand is pointless)

For the Cleric, I want a Good/Neutral character for spontaneous casting, and if I multiclass him with a monk, that limits my choice a bit (Only Bane, Helm, Ilmater, Lathander or Oghma) For the Paladin, on the character description it says they get their Cha modifier to their saves with only one level of Paladin, not two.. although I had forgotten about the diplomacy problems, so I probably wouldn't do it with that character anyway

I've had some other thoughts for characters (I think too much, which is why I've played the prologue so much ^_^) Would a Fi(4)/Rogue(3)/Barbarian(X) work? Weapon specialisation, dual wielding, sneak attacks.. and if I did that and used Weapon Finesse, would I still need Str to affect the damage, or would that be Dex too? If it's Str, I don't see much point in Weapon Finesse.. although I'm probably missing something

Another thought was a dedicated Archer. Maybe Fi(4)/Rogue(X). I could give him the rogue skills, which would let me make the Wizard pure.. but I'm a bit worried he might be a waste of a space. Can a sniper ever come close to a caster for damage? Seems it would be a weak character, without many real advantages over any other character..

Also, for the Fi/Bar, would increased Dex help his Reflex saves? The Oswald armour has +1 Max Dex bonus.. does this apply to reflex saves, or just to the AC contribution from Dex?

Ahhhhh.. this game is too good

It's the real "Minutes to learn, Lifetime to Master" game.. and I'm sure I'll have even more questions after I have some more time to come up with crazy character ideas..

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:33 pm

I find 4-character parties do get over-levelled. If you really want to squat, carry a character that can contribute in small ways at low levels, like a bard.

For the monk/cleric, I'd go with Bane or Ilmater. Good domain spells and extra perks.

Re the paladin, I must have been half asleep on my first post. Paladins do get the save bonus with 1 level. They get Aura of Courage at pally lvl 2.

A Ftr/Ro/Barb will work, but I'd prefer to split up the roles to a tank and a stealthy archer. The rogue levels on this character will give you a lower potential BAB and less HP, and dual wielding generally does less damage (even with a high Str character) than a two-handed weapon. Weapon Finesse only allows the character's Dex to affect attack rolls; damage stays the same, so Str is what you need for better damage. Weapon Finesse is for low-to-medium Str, high Dex, rogues or rangers.

I like carrying a sniper. It can be very effective once you start finding good ammo. It cannot compare with a spellcaster for pure damage potential because it only attacks one enemy at a time. However, it's nice to have dedicated ranged support to finish up wounded/disabled enemies or help out your tanks on tough opponents. The advantage to a Ftr/Ro or Rgr/Ro for a min-maxing player is that it frees up skill points, stat points, and levels for other characters. No other character need take rogue skills or levels, and the character can do a surprising amount of damage with sneak attacks.

Dex does help reflex saves. A +1 Max Dex bonus means that the character's Dex contribution to AC is capped at +1, even if the character's Dex is higher than 13. I'd have to test it to be sure if it affected saves or not (check on the Record screen before and after wearing armor).

kmonster · Post by **kmonster** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 6:30 pm

Since you wanted to take a party of 4 only because then they'd level up faster, I recommend taking a party of 6.
Even a party of 6 deep gnomes (-3ECL) will reach a point where they get 0 fighting XP since they are too high level. A party of 4 will get 0 fighting XP very often.

ECL penalties mainly decide how high leveled the party members are relatively to each other and yield a slower levelling at the beginning, but because of the dynamic XP calculation the remaining penalty for an ECL penalty level will be about 1,000 XP, not much compared to the 15,000 XP difference between level 15 and 16. A party of 6 deep gnomes will end the normal game at level 16 for everyone just like a party of 6 humans. A party of 1 deep gnome and 2 drow and 3 humans will probably end at level 15,16,16,18,18,18. A party consisting of only 4 drow will probably end at level 16,16,16,16.

I don't recommend level-squatting. It's just a game mechanics abuse the game isn't designed for. You play at lower level for some time and when you get the harvest in (desquat) your average party level will be so high that you get 0 fighting XP for a frustratingly long time during which a non-squatting party will reach the same XP level.
You only get a long-term gain in power with squatting if you level up only your main casters and keep your other party members as weak and useless low level dummies with the only purpose of reducing the average party level for gaining more fighting XP in order to make your casters overpowered and the game too easy faster. Neither balanced nor fun.

Fi4/rogue3/barbx works, even with dualwieding and weapon finesse, but you'll do far more damage 2-handed, even with only 10 strength.
For maximum sneak attack damage rather take fi4/barb3/roguex or even barb1/rogue x with maxed out strength, the rogue BAB progression isn't much slower than the warrior's.

For a bow sniper 4 fighter levels for bow specialisation are essential since bows don't do much damage, but you can do far more damage with other ranged weapons, since only bows and crossbows don't grant a strength bonus to damage.

Wraith[x] · Post by **Wraith[x]** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:16 pm

Hmm.. rereading the rogue description, it says for sneak attacks you need a melee weapon.. so I could use a big 2H sword with sneak attacks? Then go with the same Fi(4)/Rogue(3)/Barb(X) idea,but abandon the DW/Weapon Finesse.. then I'd sacrifice a few HP and a bit of BAB, but gain Avoision, then use him as a sneak attacker and rain fireballs down on him.. especially if I make him a Shield Dwarf, with their Saves vs Spells...

I'm gonna try this party:

Fighter(4)/Barbarian(X), the usual tank-n-spank
Fighter(4)/Rogue(3)/Barbarian(X) - sneak-attacking 2H wielding mage-killer type
Dreadmaster of Bane - Starting off pure, probably adding a level of monk later on. Healing and crowd control
Rogue(X)/Fighter(4) - Sniper, using Bows
Pure Sorceror
Pure Bard - Diplomat

Although I'll probably have changed half of that by tomorrow

I'm tempted to switch the Rogue to a Fighter(4)/Wizard(X).. still use her as an archer, but with some enchantment and crowd control spells too, and some nice fireball fun.. or maybe just a pure wizard

Wraith[x] · Post by **Wraith[x]** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:19 pm

kmonster wrote:Fi4/rogue3/barbx works, even with dualwieding and weapon finesse, but you'll do far more damage 2-handed, even with only 10 strength.
For maximum sneak attack damage rather take fi4/barb3/roguex or even barb1/rogue x with maxed out strength, the rogue BAB progression isn't much slower than the warrior's.

For a bow sniper 4 fighter levels for bow specialisation are essential since bows don't do much damage, but you can do far more damage with other ranged weapons, since only bows and crossbows don't grant a strength bonus to damage.

Heh, I just realised that about the 2H myself

For the sniper, would a sling be a better choice? I've never actually used a sling, so it might be good for a change anyway ^_^

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 12:56 am

Slings add modifiers from Str to their damage, so they work well with high Str characters. I usually like to make my snipers bow-users, if only because you find so many blinkin' arrows compared to other ammo, especially early on. However, a sling with Rapid Shot and high Str could definitely be effective for a dedicated ranged attacker.

I'd be a little concerned about the balance of the latest party you posted. The Ftr/Barb, Ftr/Ro/Barb, and Ftr/Ro are all quite similar in terms of their options, none of which include spellcasting. Your party lacks a wizard to learn all those spells that you might only want to use on occasion. I'd drop the Ftr/Ro/Barb or the Ftr/Barb; having both is overkill. Your Ftr4/Ro can do a lot of damage in melee if necessary, as can the Dreadmaster if you give it high Str.

Take a couple of rogue levels with the bard. That will give you Evasion, class access to Intimidate (again, take a second rogue level mid-game so you can put plenty of points to Intimidate at that time instead of having it capped), and allows you to use a fairly significant item.

kmonster · Post by **kmonster** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 5:17 am

Slings do 1-4 damage while composite bows do 3-10, but it's easy to raise strength bonus damage with bull's and champion's strength.
I liked throwing axes the most since they do high damage without the use of magical ammo, but a magical sling with bullets +5 does of course cause more damage.

I'm not a fan of dividing the party into snipers and tanks, everyone should be able to fight effectively both in melee and ranged.

Your new party is fine, you have a sorc and a cleric, 3 fighting characters and even a bard who can support the combat abilities a lot with his songs and act as backup caster.
It's rather a normal party than a powergaming party filled with overpowered spellcasters, but as long as you have a cleric and an arcane caster you should be able to beat both normal and HoF mode without getting into serious trouble.

I'd keep the bard pure, an aasimar bard with 20 cha and "mercantile background" can imho fullfill his diplomatic and spellcasting support role in the party better than a thief/bard of a race which allows this multiclass without penalty.

Wraith[x] · Post by **Wraith[x]** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 6:02 am

I changed it again, slightly.. now trying this party..

Fi(4)/Rogue(3)/Barb(X) - sneak attacking and all round evil-bashing
Dreadmaster of Bane - Melee and debuffing, off-healing
Morninglord of Lathander - Healing and Slinging
Sorceress - Bombardier
Rogue(2)/Wizard (Diviner) - Loremaster, Thiefy and Kaboom
Bard - Diplomat and songs and other funky bard stuff (Never used one so not entirely sure how it goes

)

I think this should do me pretty well for normal at least, and I'll probably reroll again before I get to HoF

Crucis · Post by **Crucis** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 1:24 pm

Wraith, I wouldn't get all that excited about sneak attacking with a Fi(4)/Rogue(3)/Barb(X). 3 levels of rogue will only get you 2d6 of sneak attack bonus damage, which while mildly nice, is hardly that big a deal. if you are really, really into sneak attacking, a pure or nearly pure rogue can be a holy terror as a sneak attacker. Towards the end of normal mode, you'd be looking at about 7 to 9 d6 of sneak attack damage.

A pure rogue may not be a good character in a smaller party. But in a larger party where you have a little room for experimentation, a true sneak attacking rogue can be a blast to play. Get a really nice 2H weapon, particularly a nice spear or halberd, and run around behind the enemy's melee wall and sneak attack one bad guy right after another, getting your full sneak attack on each.

In HOF, it's a bit tougher being a sneak attacker, but there's a great weapon for sneak attacking ... the Twelve Paces spear, with its 5 increment reach (rather than the normal 2 range).

Wraith[x] · Post by **Wraith[x]** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:55 am

It's not particularly the sneak damage I like, it's that she can get in behind enemy lines and get a free attack.. at the moment nothing can survive her (admittedly, I've not gotten far...) and I can get her reflex saves up to +12 at the moment, and I've only got L2 spells with my Clerics, and L1 with my casters.. My plan is to sneak her in, smite a big nasty with her huge sword, and then drop a few fireballs on her head.. she dodges (hopefully) and the enemies suffer a painful and fiery death...

I was wondering about Critical Strikes.. I know you can increase the threat range with Luck, but are there any other ways to increase it? I've been doing a bit of thinking, and it seems that Axes (3x Crit, 20 threat) are better than Swords (2x crit, 19-20 threat), because of how they scale with luck

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 1:29 pm

Improved Critical. Unless you have a bard, I wouldn't bank any weapon comparisons on Luck-adjusted numbers, because the duration of the spell is limited.

Both axes and swords are good. In terms of how good they are with criticals, it does depend on what you fight. If fighting big scary things with lots of HP, axes may be preferable. If fighting lots of little things, the 3x critical may be excess damage and you'd be better off critical hitting more often on multiple enemies.

Wraith[x] · Post by **Wraith[x]** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:45 am

Wouldn't things like Bless, Aid etc also have a similar effect to Luck on the critical threat? Say I have someone with Bless, Aid and Chant active on them, would they get +3 bonus to their attack rolls, so instead of Criting on 20, they'd effectively crit on 17-20 (16-20 with Luck)? Or would the attack roll effects not stack?

kmonster · Post by **kmonster** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:34 pm

For critical hits only the natural roll counts, bless and aid only affect the AB.

Jelaweb · Post by **Jelaweb** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:38 am

Wraith, do you mean Critical Threat or Critical Hit?

The +3 AB in your example is a good question depending on which you mean. Aerich, when you roll a natural 20, you score a critical threat. The computer then rolls another D20, and if it is higher than the opponents AC, you score a critical hit. By this mode of thinking, Wraith's question does have its merits.

The manual states:
"To find out if it's a critical hit, a critical roll is made immediately, this is another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll just made."

Unless the manual is lying, then your Bless, Aid and Chant spells DO have an effect on the "critical roll", i.e. the actual critical hit - but NOT the critical threat, i.e. rolling a natural 20 during a normal attack.

So the other question would be "Does luck affect the critical roll?"

If not, it means that even if a character has 2 Tymora's Loops, Neds Lucky Knucky, Executioner's Eyes and Luck, he/she would not get a critical hit if "character AB + D20 roll < enemy AC".

Wraith[x] · Post by **Wraith[x]** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:01 pm

So does that mean the Attack Boni would not increase the chance of threating a critical, but they would increase the chance of it actually turning into a crit?

Is there an upper limit where Saving Throw bonuses become redundant, like the 72 of Armour Class? I'm thinking mainly about Reflex at the moment, for sending my Rogue/Fighter in and Fireballing her..

On weapon enchantments, what message is shown if the enchantment is not enough to hit the creature? I don't think I've found anything that I need enchantments for yet, but I'm not very far in (About to do the Goblin Fortress at the end of C1)

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:17 pm

The answer to your first question is yes.

As for the second question, I couldn't put a numerical value on saves off the top of my head. The complicating factor is that saves are affected by both the saver and the savee (the caster's DC value). So if you've optimized your casters for AoE evocation damage, it will be harder for your rogue to save against. That's why rogues/monks with spell resistance are so valuable, because it means the caster has to succeed with two checks instead of one.

I suppose you could work out the spell's DC and compare it to the rogue's reflex save to figure out what number you would need. My experience is that rogues evade significantly more often than not, so go ahead and try it. It wouldn't be a bad idea to invest in some fire protection if you are nervous about the risk.

Alternately, you can figure out the radius of your AoE spells and make sure that your characters are just outside the edge.

On the weapon enchantment question, it should say "Weapon Ineffective". Unfortunately, you also get that message against regular damage resistances (and sometimes monsters are resistant against some types but not others), so it may be difficult to figure out if the enchantment level or the damage type is the issue.