This forum is to be used for all discussions pertaining to Black Isle Studios' Icewind Dale and its Heart of Winter and Trials of the Luremaster expansions.
Hi, I am new here. I've bought IWD a year ago and its an awesome game! Complete the game in easy once and insane once.
I'm going to play Hof want to compare a few characters. Will appreciate lots of help
First one is a R/C vs a Ranger 7 dual to Cleric. I play R/C twice and both times i wished i've had more spells. Will a R7C be effective in combat? (Hof)
Second dude is a F3D. I like this but should i change this to a F/D?
Should the main fighter **the one who throws out damage** be a FIGHTER or a PALADIN or a RANGER?
My main tank be a Gnome Fighter/Ill or does a F9Mage do the job better?
I usually have a F/T (elf) as a main archer. Since i'm playing hof, will a FMT be a better choice?
Consider that you gain far more XP in HoF mode than at the other levels (a simple goblin will yield 2060 instead of 15 XP), I guess about 10,000,000 XP per character.
Since there's a level cap at level 30 (there's no XPCap) which is reached at about half the XP you'll get you can max out both classes if you multiclass and gain a character who is superior to the dualclass version which stops getting better after some time when level 30 is reached in the second class.
1. For the ranger/cleric multiclassing is better, since you'll gain XP and spells far faster than at other levels you don't have to worry about getting spells too slowly. This way you'll gain the extra half attack per round for ranger level 13 and access to level 2-6 druid spells.
The ranger7/cleric is also playable if you don't mind reaching the level cap quite early.
2. I'd go multi, you'll get enough XP. It's very hard to get a sufficient roll for the dualclass version without dumping an important stat. The extra half attacks you get for fighter 7 or fighter 13 also apply while shapeshifted, so you can get 3 instead of 2 attacks per round in the powerful water elemental form.
3. Depends on what you want. Paladins have the best defense and cleric spells, rangers get druid spells and better offense, fighters do the most damage if they have grandmastery, can get racial advantadges (extra con and saving throw bonusses for being a dwarf, saving throw bonusses and the ability to wear the "helm of the trusted defender" for being a gnome or halfling.
4. Since mages level quite slowly I'd take at least one dualclassed one to get the high level spells in time and reach level 30. The dualclassed version will be superior both casting and fighting when you put ***** in your weapon of choice before dualclassing. You can dualclass to illusionist if you want more spells, others can cast the necromancy and abjuration spells.
5. Elves are overrated. Dex can be evened out with cat's grace but there's no counter for the lower con. If you don't have another gnome or halfling in the party I'd choose one so you can +3 AC from the helm, else a dwarf.
A half-elf fighter/mage/thief is superior in HoF mode since the level progression is hardly slowed and neither fighter nor thief class gain much more after level 13 and spells are more important than in normal mode.
6. Bards are great.
You don't need the optimal party in order to succeed, the party you suggested is capable of taking you through HoF mode without serious troubles if you you have roleplaying reasons to keep it as it is.
You can expect in the neighbourhood of 6 million XP or better in HoF.
A question to start - are you going to play HoF with rookie characters (yes it can be done), or play through a normal game first then go to HoF? Do you have the TotL expansion as well as the HoW expansion?
A Rgr7/Cl dual class will struggle a bit comparatively in melee combat in the mid to later stages of the game. Additionally, you can get highish level druid spells if your ranger class keeps progressing. Both of those points are arguments for a R/Cl multi. A multiclass warrior cleric (usually ranger) is a staple in my HoF parties.
A F/D should be a multi, or at least a high level dual class. I've maxed out a F13/Dr30 build before - note that I took a F/D multi in the same party, so I didn't suffer from slow access to druid spells. Go multi, especially if you are playing HoF with rookie characters. I've always felt that a F13/Dr is a somewhat poor use of XP, except in parties lacking a better tank. Druids make substandard tanks (because of their spell access), except when shapechanged to water elemental. If going the F13/Dr route, I'd recommend specializing in spears instead of scimitars.
I'd go with the Paladin. Some of the clerical spells are quite good for a paladin (Exhibit A: Draw Upon Holy Might), and a pally has slightly better AC and saves (+2 to each for innate PfEvil, and +2 to saves as a class bonus). I would steer away from a ranger as your main tank, because they will get hit more often than a shield-using grunt if you use the "two weapon fighting". Paladins also have more options than Fighters, especially when it comes to buffing themselves for tough fights. A pally will max out, and a Pal30 is nearly as good offensively as a Ftr30 (better when buffed, IMO), and a far better defender.
I've used a Gnome F/Ill as my main tank before. It was great. Bear in mind that a F9/M will have a comparatively poor Thaco. A F/Ill is an excellent tank, a F9/M is more effective at range. I've used a F13/M to good effect. It's a killer when it regains its fighter levels, but it takes a good while to develop.
A F/M/T is good. However, a F/T can also be effective (but take a halfling or gnome over an elf). I took one once with specialization in bows and crossbows (to take advantage of the best ammo and launchers I could find), and it was a ranged assassin, especially against spellcasters.
Bards are fine. Be prepared for it to max out early.
So I'd summarize the party as:'
Pally
R/Cl multi
F/Dr multi (preferred, but high level dual class possible)
Bard
F/Ill or F13/M, depending on whether you prefer early spell access or a late-game monster (take the F/Ill if doing HoF with rookies)
F/M/T (preferred, especially if you go for the F13/M) or F/T
When your back is against the wall... the other guy is in a whole lotta trouble.
I'm a fan of cleric and druid spells. MC F/D and R/C will lose lot of spell quantities right? Logically, a R7C will progresss faster in terms of thaco and spells compared to a R/C. The R/C gains extra 0.5 attack per round comparatively.
Which is better from a party point of view?
Having a R/C and F7D
or
Having a R7C and F/D ?
I disagree with Aerich about the fighter9/mage, he's better than the multiclass in melee IMO. If grandmastered in the melee weapon he'll have an extra half attack per round and +3 damage compared to the multiclass fighter/mage. With the right buffs and equipment his thac0 can still become perfect against nearly all enemies.
I also don't think that a paladin can become better in the offense than a fighter, the missing attack per round can't be evened out with the DUHM buff.
Regarding defense you don't get much more the +2 AC from his PfE (compare to the HottD good gnome fighters can wear), entropy shield is a level 6 spell which paladins can only cast once per day at level 29 or 30.
But the flexibility you gain with the additional cleric spells might be worth it if you don't mind micromanagement.
Regarding power just another cleric or druid multiclass will offer more than any warrior, but making everyone a spellcaster might get boring.
You'll get far more than 6m XP per character with HoF, even at insane level you should have reached 5,000,000 XP per character at the end of IWD+HoW+TotL.
In HoF mode you get *4+2000 XP for defeating a monster, a big difference compared to the *2 you get at insane level, so 9-10m XP is more realistic.
Regarding whom to dualclass both your suggestions have their advantadges and disadvantadges:
Multiclassing the druid will yield better overall character stats and an easier beginning when you start at level 1.
Multiclassing your cleric will allow your F>D to master 2 weapons and allow your cleric to get druid spells of higher levels.
I like the high level druid spells more than the high level cleric spells.
If you dualclass your druid at level 7 I recommend mastering both sling and scimitar, scimitars can be worn with shields which also give bonusses while shapeshifted and scimitar profiency affects thac0 and damage dealt in polar bear form.
I'd consider waiting with dualclassing to druid until level9 for the extra profiency point (grandmastery !!!), the 125,000 XP for druid level 10 are reached very fast.
Another option is replacing character4 with a cleric9/illusionist so that you get healing spells from the beginning and can afford both the ranger7/cleric and the fighter9/druid and have 2 characters who can raise dead.
You can replace character 3 with a fighter/illusionist multi and dual the cleric to abjurer if you still want a spellsword.
There are so many ways to create an effective HoF party...
Re the F/Ill vs F9/M debate, both are good. IMO, it's the best dual-class combo. If you are going to run through the game on a non-HoF difficulty first, it doesn't matter which one you pick (just be aware that the F/M dual class will likely max out in HoF). If you start your characters in HoF, the early access to mage spells is critical. Also, with the right items, a F/Ill can get a -15 unbuffed AC by lvl 5 of Dragon's Eye and can be extremely effective (due to Mirror Image and Armor or Shield) well before then. A F9/M will also have a few less HP.
A paladin can get an extra attack from Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, which it would not get unless the priest in the party also had a Lawful Good alignment. Under those circumstances (RWotF, DUHM, and a non-lawful good cleric), a paladin is arguably a better offensive tank.
A paladin is a much better situational defender (e.g. meatshield) than a fighter, IMO. It has +4 to saves that a fighter cannot have. Clerical spells can be cast by the party cleric, but the paladin's access can be a crucial point, especially for short-range spells such as Defensive Harmony. DUHM is as much a defensive spell as an offensive one, as it allows a paladin to get 25 in Str, Dex and Con. The Lay on Hands perk has also saved my pally's bacon a few times. Sometimes you need everything you can scrounge in HoF against tough opponents, and the defensive abilities of a paladin enable it to survive situations that a fighter would not survive.
Regarding the Helm of the Trusted Defender, it is a +3 helm; a paladin (or any other good warrior or cleric) can wear the Blessed Helm of Lathander for a +2 bonus, so a paladin will still have a better AC when you factor in their innate PfE ability.
As for the available XP, I was referring to the amount you will get from HoF alone. I recall that multiclass members of a 6-character party generally will not max out. 6 million XP is a little low, but 10 mil is high. I recall that on my first HoF-only run, I maxed out the bard on Burial Isle and the pally in the harpy-ridden courtyard at the beginning of TotL. That's about 6.6 million through to the start of TotL, having gone up to the points of no return in both the main game (staircase) and HoW (immediately before Sea of Moving Ice). However, I did a fair bit of camping in that game.
10 million is certainly achievable if you do HoF as a second run with the same party (which I found to be boring - I gave up running an experienced party in HoF at Dragon's Eye; the paladin had over 80% of the kills because the party waltzed through the Vale and DE lvl 3 destroying everything in sight with Turn Undead).
Regarding the R/C and F/D issue, I'd make the F/D the dual class if you really want one of them to be a dc, even though rolling up the character for a min-maxed build is a tedious experience. Remember, you need at least a 15 in the prime requisite stat of the first class and at least a 17 in the prime requisite stats of the second class (and a true neutral alignment) - that means at least 15 Str and 17 Wis and Cha. A strong stat roll should be 15/18/18/3/18/17, for 89 total points. Buff your Str with the Strength spell until you find Gauntlets of Ogre Power.
While scimitars are nice (especially Valiant and Frostbrand), I really would recommend spears (Slayer is +5), since you can use the extra range of the weapon to tactically place your character behind your tank so your defensively-weaker F/D is not targeted. It should go without saying that every warrior-type should have specialization in a missile weapon of some sort. You won't spend all that much time in polar bear shape, since it is slow with terribly poor AC, although it does awesome damage (I mostly use it against cold-using creatures with Resist Fire/Cold or Storm Shell for better than 100% cold resistance). The water elemental shapechange is far superior, especially if you have damage resistance items.
When your back is against the wall... the other guy is in a whole lotta trouble.
A dualclassed fighter9/mage gets actually more HP than the multiclass, a dualclassed fighter9/mage10 with 18 con has 130 HP while a multiclass fighter9/illusionist10 has only 101 HP. Since he only gets 1 HP at the following level-ups he'll never get near the dualclass regarding HP.
"Righteous wrath of the faithful" is useless in a party with a bard, it doesn't stack with "haste" which doubles the number of attacks, helping far more.
Paladins can get +4 in all saves, but dwarves and halflings get +5 in the important saves, gnomes +5 vs magic and in another save.
At higher levels (17+) fighter saves get so good that bonusses aren't really useful any more.
Since one of my party members wore a non-magical helm at the end of the game having someone who can wear the "hottd" grants +3 AC, just a pity if you don't have a good aligned gnome or halfling who can wear it.
If you had 6,600,000 XP at the start of TotL you'll surely have reached far more than 8,000,000 at the end. TotL grants quite some XP, as do the HoW battles after the point of no return.
If you want to create the fighter/druid dualclass I'd rather lower wis to 17 than strength, one level 4 spell more or less doesn't matter at higher levels.
I still think you should use scimitars. With a shield you can get your druid's AC low enough that only criticals will hit him and if you want to attack from afar the slings you get in Lonelywood do nearly the same damage as the spear +5.
I did muck up the dc F/M HP calculation. The point that I will not come off of is that the mc F/Ill is waaaay better if starting off a party in HoF, where the orc caves, Kuldahar Pass, and Dragon's Eye are comparatively the toughest spots in the game (although Lower Dorns and Burial Isle are plenty tough, you have more levels and resources by that time). The Thaco difference at high levels is significant, especially against spectral guards, which have somewhere in the neighbourhood of -10 AC. Grandmastery can only help so much when your base Thaco is 12, as the F9/M's will be until mage lvl 28 or so. If you can hold out until F13/M, the end result is worth it.
I also won't back off on the usefulness of a pally's spell access and class-based options. Re the saves, the pally's bonus is most noticable early in the game, as is the AC difference. I'd be interested in seeing a breakdown of damage per round between a buffed paladin with Pale Justice and a fighter with a different weapon (although I will concede the Long Sword of Action +4 probably does more damage). Pale Justice lessens the difference for sure; 8-15 damage per hit against evil, + Str bonus, which gets up to +14 with DUHM for 22-29 dmg/hit at 3.5 unbuffed ApR. A Fighter cannot get more than 19 Str (Girdle of Stromnos) for +7 dmg (+ grandmastery) except by using (relatively scarce) potions - a high level pally can hit 25 Str as many times a day as it has lvl 2 spell slots. A pally will take stuff down fast enough, on the whole, and I don't think having a fighter in its place will speed up the process much.
AFAIK, you need 18 Wis to cast lvl 7 priest spells, so there's your reason to take 18 Wis. There's really no barrier other than your own patience level to rolling up an 18/xx Str F/Dr dual class. However, Str is a "good" place to pull points from if you're having trouble making the roll, because you can find items to essentially give a significant permanent bonus to Str. You can't take much off of Wis or Cha, Int is already as low as it can go, and I wouldn't recommend taking anything off of Dex or Con.
With lots of melee-capable characters in the party (pally, f/m of some description, r/c), I'd still be inclined to go with spears. Even with a shield, there are plenty of things that can hit a F/D on a regular roll in HoF (giants, remorhaz, spectral guards, golems, etc). My buffed-up, -28 AC pally got whipped by a priest-mage of Vhaerun, and I don't think a F/D can get its AC that low very easily. The general idea is to give the best defensive items to the pally and let it play blocker while the F/D, which really has no defensive spells other than Entropy Shield, can attack with little risk.
Part of the problem with slings is that good magical ammo can be hard to come by in the expansions, so using a spear allows the F/D to "attack from range" without having to buy, find, conserve, or store ammo.
If there's a gnomish F/Ill in the party, you have at least one member who can wear the HotTD.
8 mil maybe, but not 10. I used quite a few methods to maximize XP during that game (e.g. spawning shadows and skeletons in the Vale, excessive camping on DE lvl 3, clearing the area around the Idol several times), coming out probably at least 300 000 xp per character ahead of where I would have been had I taken the shortest and quickest way.
Anyway, all this is merely a diverting sideshow. Any party with a warrior cleric, warrior druid, dedicated tank, wizard, part-time thief, and bard will do just fine. My first HoF party was a R/C, F/D, F/M, F/T (all multi), paladin, and bard. It covers everything you need.
When your back is against the wall... the other guy is in a whole lotta trouble.
I'm not sure if it's really that useful if you have more mages at the start. You can only select a few level 1 spells at the start, for other spells you've got to find the scrolls first. Chromatic orb takes some levels to become effective, charm person can lower the XP gain, grease seems to be the best choice.
But those mage spells are overshadowed by the cleric or druid spells you'll get even without scrolls. When you've gained access to better scrolls the dualclassing will probably already have started.
For fighter9/mage10 you need 500,000 XP, to even out the thac0 difference from grandmastery you need 11 fighter levels with the multiclass, that's 1,500,000 XP, 2,500,000 XP in order to have only one half attack per round less than the dualclass at 500,000 XP.
It takes a long, long time (6,000,000 XP) until the base thac0 of 1 and the first level 9 mage spells are reached for the multiclass.
A base thac0 of 12 doesn't sound very well, but if you add +3 for strength, +3 for grandmastery, +4 for weapon, +3 for emotion hope and courage, +1 for gauntlets of specialisation you already have a thac0 of -4 which hits AC -4 unless a natural 1 is rolled, and there are even more spells to improve it like recitation. Against the very few enemies you miss a bit more often you still can do more damage than the multiclass because of the grandmastery bonus to damage and extra half attack per round.
The dualclass gets more layers of stoneskin and can also cast more other spells with better level-dependent effects.
I'm not saying a gnome fighter/illusionist isn't very strong, but a pure or early dualclassed mage is the only chance to reach the 7,500,000 mage XP required for a level 30 mage who belongs into a perfect party for me.
As for the fighter30/paladin30 damage comparison: (thac0 doesn't matter)
Fighter with LSoA+4 hasted: (5-12 + 6 (18/00 strength) + 5 (GM) + 2 (specialisation gauntlets) + 5 (emotion: hope+courage) ) *9 APR = 207-270 damage per round.
Paladin with 25 strength and LSoA+4 hasted: (5-12 + 14 + 2 +2 + 5) *7 APR = 196-245.
With pale justice vs evil opponents (i guess it's the minority): 31-38 *5 = 155-190
vs non-evil opponents: 140-175
The difference is even bigger with weapons which don't give extra attacks per round and at lower levels.
You also have to consider that it's nearly impossible to roll an 18/00 str paladin with 18 dex and con while a 18/00 str fighter with those stats is easy to get. A level 29 DUHM raises 18/75 str only to 24 and even with 18/00 strength you need at least paladin level 21 to reach 25 with this spell for 10 rounds.
The +5 racial advantadges to save for dwarves or halflings are more important than the +4 saves paladins can get. You nearly always have to save vs spell or death.
You don't need 18 wis in order to be able to cast level 7 priest spells in IWD. For a fighter/druid dual I'd roll at least until a total 91 with 18/.. strength is reached. It takes a long time until the first high strength granting item is achieved and the strength spell doesn't work better than described.
I agree that we are mainly talking about details which aren't neccessary in order to build a sufficient HoF party. My first HoF party consisted only of a human cleric who later dualed to mage and managed to defeat all enemies in the game and its expansions. The hardest part was detecting all the secret doors in the TotL crypt.
A mage can cast the spell Strength on the pally to get 18/00 Str, or the pally can take a potion of Giant Strength. The modified Str score is the basis for the DUHM spell, so 25 Str can be achieved fairly early on.
If playing HoF from the start, the best mage spells to choose are Grease and Charm Person; Chromatic Orb is useless until mage lvl 4, and is available in Pomab's bedroom anyway. Losing the XP from a couple of orcs in return for a HoF-pumped meatshield is acceptable, and losing the XP isn't guaranteed. You can keep tabs on your charmed friend's HP, and force attack at range when it drops to 'almost dead'. If losing the XP bothers you, camp somewhere or take out a few extra skeletons in the Vale to make up for it.
I conceded the LSoA already because of the extra attack. A comparison against Axes, say the Celebrant's Blade, comes out more even. Evil opponents are generally the majority, so the Pale Justice bonus kicks in quite often. Also, Haste isn't a buff I often use, except right before my rest period or before extremely nasty fights, because of the fatigue aftereffect. In TotL, you also have to be watchful of the fairly common Dispel Magic which removes Haste but still leaves the party fatigued. Granted, a gnome or halfling wearing HotTD will not be fatigued.
A pally's AC can be better and it has more options in tight situations, which is the main factor for me. With a party built for melee (e.g. 4 or more warrior classes), you don't have enough great items around for everyone to have awesome AC (e.g. -25 or better with buffs). Better to have one with awesome AC than four with so-so (-10) AC. That's also a lot of the rationale for the F/Ill, which can tank as soon as it gets Mirror Image, and can achieve a surprisingly low AC. My F/Ill party also had a C/M and two druids, so I wasn't hurting for attack spells.
Unless you get lucky, that's a long time to roll up the F/D dual. Even with 17 Wis, it takes 91 stat points not even counting the exceptional Str roll. As a fighter, you don't have the advantage of the stat bumps given to classes with more stringent minimum stats.
When your back is against the wall... the other guy is in a whole lotta trouble.
At some points in the game you'll have such good thac0 that you always hit your current enemy unless a critical miss is made, so further improvement doesn't help any more.
If you attack an enemy with AC0 for example and have a thac0 of 2 you'll always hit unless a natural 1 is rolled. So a thac0 of 2 is already perfect against such enemies, even if you have a far better thac0 like -18 you won't hit more often.
I wrote "thac0 doesn't matter" in the fighter30/paladin30 comparison since both characters get so good thac0 (base 1 + strength bonus + weapon bonus + specialisation bonus + ... + ...) that they get perfect to hit chances vs all enemies and there's no need to compare the exact thac0 values.
Thaco matters, it just doesn't matter much in the Fighter vs Paladin debate. Even if comparing lower level characters, the difference in natural (e.g. class-based) Thaco between a Ftr and Pally will be either one or nothing (because they level up at different rates). Any pureclass warrior will hit far, far more often than it misses, except right at the beginning if playing HoF with rookies.
When your back is against the wall... the other guy is in a whole lotta trouble.
Personally, i think any well rounded party will do. You just have to use different tactics. I have heard talk of using grease spells, I am well on my way in IWD(level 8) and have never used grease once. Besides, who wants to make the game easy, figuring out what to do in tough battles is the fun part. My party consists of 3 fighters, a cleric, a mage, and of course a thief.
Every day above ground is a good day.(Unless your an Illithid)
