Anyone played without using Magic?

wise grimwald · Post by **wise grimwald** » Thu May 10, 2007 9:46 am

Jaidur's post about non-magical weapons caused me to wonder if anyone had played the game without using magic. I have completed it without using weapons, but no doubt not having magical weapons, armour, or items would be a real challenge. Has anyone done it, or even tried it?

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Thu May 10, 2007 3:39 pm

I remember reading about a speed run of BG1, and the guy who did it the fastest was playing a solo elf F/T.

So yes, it's possible.

mr_sir · Post by **mr_sir** » Thu May 10, 2007 10:53 pm

Are you classing magical armour and items etc. as magic? Its certainly possible to do it without spells but I imagine it would be a lot harder without any magic armour rings or anything since your AC and saving throws would be a lot weaker.

wise grimwald · Post by **wise grimwald** » Fri May 11, 2007 12:49 pm

mr_sir wrote:Are you classing magical armour and items etc. as magic? Its certainly possible to do it without spells but I imagine it would be a lot harder without any magic armour rings or anything since your AC and saving throws would be a lot weaker.

I certainly was classifying magical armour and items as magic. I have completed it solo using only magical armour, boots of speed and Algernon's Cloak, but am considering doing it again after I finish BG2 only without magic.
I can well imagine that it will be much more difficult, and for that reason will not try to solo it all the way. Imagine what the two encounters with Saverok will be like! I will not avoid cheese at all. Like Wallace and Gromitt, I love a little Wensleydale, and I imagine that I will have to use all the cheese that I can get!!

BlueSky · Post by **BlueSky** » Sat May 12, 2007 8:24 am

Tried going into a non-magic game one time, without using "cheesy help"...but alas.

..found myself role-playing as usual after a few quests and slipped back into to using magic...but still no "cheese"
old habits are hard to change...

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Sat May 12, 2007 9:04 am

I don't think there are any enemies in BG1 that need a magic weapon to hit them, so I guess it's possible.

BG2 is a different story.

mr_sir · Post by **mr_sir** » Sat May 12, 2007 10:09 am

If you are planning on playing through TotSC then you may have some trouble with Karoug, although I guess you could use the silver dagger (it will still be a lot of hard work though so rather you than me

).

Bardess · Post by **Bardess** » Sat May 12, 2007 10:22 am

Sorry, why would anyone, and by that I mean your characters, want to do that? Because they are frightened relatives of Valygar Corthala and are afraid that their own armor +1 is going to turn them into undead?

mr_sir · Post by **mr_sir** » Sat May 12, 2007 10:50 am

Bardess wrote:Sorry, why would anyone, and by that I mean your characters, want to do that? Because they are frightened relatives of Valygar Corthala and are afraid that their own armor +1 is going to turn them into undead?

People often try to complete the game in different ways purely for the challenge.

From a roleplaying point of view, there are lots of reasons, one being a distrust of magic, another being that hte character has a natural immunity to magic similar to that of the wizard slayer (only all magic no longer works rather than just potions etc.). Of course there also does not have to be a roleplaying reason for it, just simply that the player wants to try something new.

wise grimwald · Post by **wise grimwald** » Sun May 13, 2007 7:55 am

mr_sir wrote:People often try to complete the game in different ways purely for the challenge.

From a roleplaying point of view, there are lots of reasons, one being a distrust of magic, another being that hte character has a natural immunity to magic similar to that of the wizard slayer (only all magic no longer works rather than just potions etc.). Of course there also does not have to be a roleplaying reason for it, just simply that the player wants to try something new.

That is exactly why I am thinking of trying it. I am finding BG1 a little on the easy side nowadays and was trying to think of a way of making it more difficult. I now have the problem of deciding what constitutes magic. Which missiles for examples are magic, and which are alchemy. The Romans for instance had fire arrows, pygmies their poison darts. Also which potions are magical in nature and which are chemical. Since I haven't started it yet, I am open to suggestions.

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Sun May 13, 2007 8:18 am

If you want a real fun challenge, I'd suggest a no reloads game. I had an AWESOME time with that.

mr_sir · Post by **mr_sir** » Sun May 13, 2007 8:22 am

I'd say fire arrows, acid arrows and arrows of biting are not magic since there is no real reason why these couldn't exist without magic.

As for potions: Healing could be herbal so thats not magic, same with antidote etc. In fact I think most restorative potions could feasibly be herbal rather than magical. The problem is when you come to buffing potions - a chemical potion could make you feel stronger, but would it actually make you stronger?

wise grimwald · Post by **wise grimwald** » Mon May 14, 2007 4:35 am

Klorox wrote:If you want a real fun challenge, I'd suggest a no reloads game. I had an AWESOME time with that.

I have already done that through BG1 with a fighter/thief. You're right. It was fun and I can heartily recommend it. Am currently playing in BG2 for the 1st time, and when I have completed it, will eventually try that game out no-reloads. However, am having some problems in watcher's keep, so it could be some time before I do so.
When I played the fighter/thief solo, I most certainly used magic, Boots of Speed, Algernon's cloak, Gauntlets of weapons expertise etc. so it is possible that the one that you read about did the same.

wise grimwald · Post by **wise grimwald** » Mon May 14, 2007 4:56 am

mr_sir wrote:I'd say fire arrows, acid arrows and arrows of biting are not magic since there is no real reason why these couldn't exist without magic.

As for potions: Healing could be herbal so thats not magic, same with antidote etc. In fact I think most restorative potions could feasibly be herbal rather than magical. The problem is when you come to buffing potions - a chemical potion could make you feel stronger, but would it actually make you stronger?

I have read the info on various arrows. +1, +2, and arrows of ice are definitely magical. I think that the same is true of arrows of fire, though as you say, there is no reason why they should be. Dip an arrow in pitch and then in fire and it becomes an arrow of fire. There is no mention of magic in the descriptions of acid arrows or poison arrows, so I am assuming that they are not magical in nature.

I then looked up the info on some of the armour, and of the ones that I have looked at so far, there is no mention of magic, even though they could be magical in nature. The ones I have looked at so far are Ankheg and Shadow armour.

Similarly no mention of magic in the boots of stealth. I suppose that they could just be made with soft leather. I would suspect that all other boots other than the worn out ones are magical.

I think that all the cloaks, rings, bracers, gauntlets, and belts with special attributes are magical.

Any info that others have at their fingertips is welcome.

CFM · Post by **CFM** » Mon May 14, 2007 9:49 am

The Arrow of Fire is described as "a magical arrow that will burst into flames as it is fired at an enemy". If this is a democracy, I vote It's Magic.

Acid Arrows have a +1 bonus to THAC0. Again, I vote It's Magic.

You can wear a Ring of Protection with Ankheg Plate Armor. Because of this, and it's no-mention-of-magic description, for Ankheg Plate Armor I absolutely vote It's NOT Magic.

Maybe a good determiner would be if the item needs to be identified, when you first find it and place it in an inventory slot (i.e. it's shaded blue in inventory at first, until you right-click it), then an unidentified blue-shaded item constitutes being magical. (?) I can't remember if Ankheg Plate Armor starts off blue or not...

Other-wise, I vote for whatever reasoning you come up with for Cool, and just go with it.

Maybe your dude ONLY uses fire/cold/acid/elemental-related (or other themed) magicks, instead of just no magic.

wise grimwald · Post by **wise grimwald** » Tue May 15, 2007 2:58 am

I have read the info on arrows of fire and you are right, definitely magic.
Acid and poison from the description, not magical. I will keep the ring of protection to test armour. If I can wear both, it is not magical. That leaves me with the problem of the light plate in Durlag's tower. In BG1 you cannot wear the ring. In BG2 you can!
I have recently installed Tutu and have just realised that the character I am thinking of is a Wizard Slayer, perhaps a Wizard Slayer/Thief, with some extra restrictions. I cannot think of any way of dealing with the battle in the Ducal Palace without having some allies to draw the Doppelgangers away from the dukes, so will probably get some allies at that stage. Even then, bad luck could cause a panic-stricken doppelganger to go where the dukes can see it, and they could be drawn into the conflict. Still, it could make for an interesting battle. If I play in Tutu, I can just reject any potions that the wizard slayer cannot use. So I think that I have more or less got it straight in my mind how I will play. Klorox is right, I will not be able to even beat the relatively easy trolls in BG2 without magic, but these restrictions could make my first Tutu game quite interesting.

Kipi · Post by **Kipi** » Tue May 15, 2007 3:12 am

CFM wrote: You can wear a Ring of Protection with Ankheg Plate Armor. Because of this, and it's no-mention-of-magic description, for Ankheg Plate Armor I absolutely vote It's NOT Magic.

Just curious, but how would you explain that small ring gives you boost in protection without magic?

For determining what is magical and what isn't I would personally suggest using common sense including the description of the items. If you think there is natural, unmagical way to produce the same effect to the similiar item, and the item has no description of it being magical, then I would say it's not magical.

And many +1 weapons could be unmagical. Perhaps the crafting is better than in normal weapons, ie they penetrate the armour better? That way those could also be considered as nonmagical items.

mr_sir · Post by **mr_sir** » Tue May 15, 2007 5:28 am

wise grimwald wrote:Klorox is right, I will not be able to even beat the relatively easy trolls in BG2 without magic, but these restrictions could make my first Tutu game quite interesting.

If you take acid arrows as being non-magical then these could be used to defeat the trolls

@Kipi, I don't think they were suggesting the ring is non-magical but rather that the Ankheg plate is non-magical since it can be worn at the same time as the ring if you chose to wear the ring.

As for the Ankheg, it is definately non-magical as it doesn't even need to be identified before you can use it.

As for Wizard Slayer, the only potions they are allowed to use are healing potions, which makes sense since they can easily be herbal remedies

Grombag · Post by **Grombag** » Wed May 16, 2007 2:43 am

CFM wrote:You can wear a Ring of Protection with Ankheg Plate Armor.

Actually no you can't. Tried it yesterday in easy tutu and you can't equip it. I'm pretty sure this also goes for plain BG.

wise grimwald · Post by **wise grimwald** » Wed May 16, 2007 4:35 am

What I am still wondering about is the "Light Plate" and the "Mithril Armour".
Is Mithril just made with rare material, or is it intrinsically magical. The Ankheg armour is indeed a conundrum. There is nothing in the description that says it is magical, and yet you cannot wear a magical ring with it. Of course the beast itself is magical as I know full well from my first encounters with it.