Latin American Indigenous Peoples were "silently longing" to become Christians
- dragon wench
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Latin American Indigenous Peoples were "silently longing" to become Christians
Well... according to Pope Benedict XVI they were anyway...
Here's the story, which actually covers quite a lot more than that:
[url="Pope Assails Marxism and Capitalism"]Pope Assails Marxism and Capitalism[/url]
SAO PAULO, Brazil (AP) -- Pope Benedict XVI lamented the deep divide between rich and poor in Latin America but told priests to steer clear of politics as they work to reverse Roman Catholicism's waning influence in the region.
Wrapping up five-day visit to Brazil, the 80-year-old pontiff denounced Marxism in an hour-long speech Sunday opening a 19-day conference of Latin American bishops in the shrine city of Aparecida.
''The Marxist system, where it found its way into government, not only left a sad heritage of economic and ecological destruction, but also a painful destruction of the human spirit,'' the pope said.
He also warned of unfettered capitalism and globalization. Before boarding a plane for Rome later Sunday, he said the two could give ''rise to a worrying degradation of personal dignity through drugs, alcohol and deceptive illusions of happiness.''
Marxism still influences some grassroots Catholic activists in Latin America, remnants of the liberation theology movement Benedict worked to crush when he was cardinal. Liberation theology holds that the Christian faith should be reinterpreted specifically to deliver oppressed people from injustice.
Benedict also defended the church's campaign centuries ago to Christianize indigenous people, saying Latin American Indians had been ''silently longing'' to become Christians when Spanish and Portuguese conquerors violently took over their native lands centuries ago.
''In effect, the proclamation of Jesus and of his Gospel did not at any point involve an alienation of the pre-Columbus cultures, nor was it the imposition of a foreign culture,'' he told the bishops.
Throughout his first papal visit to the region, Benedict emphasized Catholic moral values as the answer to Latin America's social and economic problems. Returning to that theme Sunday, he warned that legalized contraception and abortion in Latin America threaten ''the future of the peoples'' and said the historical Catholic identity of the region is under assault.
Speaking in Spanish and Portuguese, the pope called on the bishops to reinvigorate the church, still the dominant faith in the region but rapidly losing ground to evangelical Protestant churches. He urged bishops to mold a new generation of leaders, saying Latin America needs more dedicated Catholics at high levels in government, the media and at universities.
While Brazil is the most populous Roman Catholic country, home to more than 120 million of the world's 1.1 billion Catholics, the census shows that people calling themselves Catholics fell to 74 percent in 2000 from 89 percent in 1980. Those calling themselves evangelical Protestants rose to 15 percent from 7 percent.
The pope did not name any countries in his criticism of capitalism and Marxism, but Latin America has become deeply divided in recent years amid a sharp tilt to the left -- with the election of leftist leaders in Bolivia, Ecuador and Nicaragua and the re-election of President Hugo Chavez in Venezuela. Center-left leaders govern in Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay.
Religious experts said Benedict failed to address key challenges to the church in Latin America, including a severe shortage of priests or a specific strategy for how parishes should try win back Catholics who have turned into born-again Protestants or simply stopped going to church.
''Psychologists say what you don't talk about are often the most important things, and that was the case with the pope,'' said Fernando Altermeyer, a theology professor at Sao Paulo's Catholic Pontificate University.
Added former Vatican Radio reporter David Gibson: ''By not looking to the church's structural problems, he's handicapping the chances for success.''
In events in and near Sao Paulo that attracted more than 1 million people, Benedict criticized the rising tide of Latin Americans flouting the church's prohibition on premarital sex and divorce and told drug dealers they will face divine justice for the misery they cause.
Then he headed to the shrine city of Aparecida, telling the bishops to convince Catholics from all walks of life ''to bring the light of the Gospel into public life, into culture, economics and politics.''
Benedict called the institution of the family ''one of the most important treasures of Latin American countries,'' but said it is threatened by legislation and government policies contrary to church doctrine on marriage, contraception and abortion.
Mexico City lawmakers recently legalized abortion and gay civil unions, and the Brazilian government routinely hands out millions of free condoms to prevent AIDS.
The pope called the region the ''continent of hope'' during a Sunday Mass before 150,000 faithful in front of the mammoth basilica of Aparecida home to the nation's patron saint, a black Virgin Mary.
But the turnout fell far short of the 400,000 to 500,000 worshippers local organizers hoped would show up for Benedict's last big public event of the papal tour, his longest since becoming pope two years ago.
Waiting to catch a glimpse of the 80-year-old pope at Aparecida's basilica, 68-year-old Maria Costa said she hoped his trip would revitalize the church in Brazil.
''Catholics weren't feeling very good with the Church, and that's why so many were leaving,'' she said. ''I think that could change now. Let's hope so.''
Plus ça change....
Here's the story, which actually covers quite a lot more than that:
[url="Pope Assails Marxism and Capitalism"]Pope Assails Marxism and Capitalism[/url]
SAO PAULO, Brazil (AP) -- Pope Benedict XVI lamented the deep divide between rich and poor in Latin America but told priests to steer clear of politics as they work to reverse Roman Catholicism's waning influence in the region.
Wrapping up five-day visit to Brazil, the 80-year-old pontiff denounced Marxism in an hour-long speech Sunday opening a 19-day conference of Latin American bishops in the shrine city of Aparecida.
''The Marxist system, where it found its way into government, not only left a sad heritage of economic and ecological destruction, but also a painful destruction of the human spirit,'' the pope said.
He also warned of unfettered capitalism and globalization. Before boarding a plane for Rome later Sunday, he said the two could give ''rise to a worrying degradation of personal dignity through drugs, alcohol and deceptive illusions of happiness.''
Marxism still influences some grassroots Catholic activists in Latin America, remnants of the liberation theology movement Benedict worked to crush when he was cardinal. Liberation theology holds that the Christian faith should be reinterpreted specifically to deliver oppressed people from injustice.
Benedict also defended the church's campaign centuries ago to Christianize indigenous people, saying Latin American Indians had been ''silently longing'' to become Christians when Spanish and Portuguese conquerors violently took over their native lands centuries ago.
''In effect, the proclamation of Jesus and of his Gospel did not at any point involve an alienation of the pre-Columbus cultures, nor was it the imposition of a foreign culture,'' he told the bishops.
Throughout his first papal visit to the region, Benedict emphasized Catholic moral values as the answer to Latin America's social and economic problems. Returning to that theme Sunday, he warned that legalized contraception and abortion in Latin America threaten ''the future of the peoples'' and said the historical Catholic identity of the region is under assault.
Speaking in Spanish and Portuguese, the pope called on the bishops to reinvigorate the church, still the dominant faith in the region but rapidly losing ground to evangelical Protestant churches. He urged bishops to mold a new generation of leaders, saying Latin America needs more dedicated Catholics at high levels in government, the media and at universities.
While Brazil is the most populous Roman Catholic country, home to more than 120 million of the world's 1.1 billion Catholics, the census shows that people calling themselves Catholics fell to 74 percent in 2000 from 89 percent in 1980. Those calling themselves evangelical Protestants rose to 15 percent from 7 percent.
The pope did not name any countries in his criticism of capitalism and Marxism, but Latin America has become deeply divided in recent years amid a sharp tilt to the left -- with the election of leftist leaders in Bolivia, Ecuador and Nicaragua and the re-election of President Hugo Chavez in Venezuela. Center-left leaders govern in Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay.
Religious experts said Benedict failed to address key challenges to the church in Latin America, including a severe shortage of priests or a specific strategy for how parishes should try win back Catholics who have turned into born-again Protestants or simply stopped going to church.
''Psychologists say what you don't talk about are often the most important things, and that was the case with the pope,'' said Fernando Altermeyer, a theology professor at Sao Paulo's Catholic Pontificate University.
Added former Vatican Radio reporter David Gibson: ''By not looking to the church's structural problems, he's handicapping the chances for success.''
In events in and near Sao Paulo that attracted more than 1 million people, Benedict criticized the rising tide of Latin Americans flouting the church's prohibition on premarital sex and divorce and told drug dealers they will face divine justice for the misery they cause.
Then he headed to the shrine city of Aparecida, telling the bishops to convince Catholics from all walks of life ''to bring the light of the Gospel into public life, into culture, economics and politics.''
Benedict called the institution of the family ''one of the most important treasures of Latin American countries,'' but said it is threatened by legislation and government policies contrary to church doctrine on marriage, contraception and abortion.
Mexico City lawmakers recently legalized abortion and gay civil unions, and the Brazilian government routinely hands out millions of free condoms to prevent AIDS.
The pope called the region the ''continent of hope'' during a Sunday Mass before 150,000 faithful in front of the mammoth basilica of Aparecida home to the nation's patron saint, a black Virgin Mary.
But the turnout fell far short of the 400,000 to 500,000 worshippers local organizers hoped would show up for Benedict's last big public event of the papal tour, his longest since becoming pope two years ago.
Waiting to catch a glimpse of the 80-year-old pope at Aparecida's basilica, 68-year-old Maria Costa said she hoped his trip would revitalize the church in Brazil.
''Catholics weren't feeling very good with the Church, and that's why so many were leaving,'' she said. ''I think that could change now. Let's hope so.''
Plus ça change....
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I recently saw some Google search charts that showed how by far most of the religious keywords come from Latin America now. Kinda makes sense from what I know about those areas.
Did one myself just now: Google Trends: jesus
I don't see why they just move the Vat over there. It seems like a won battle to me already.
Did one myself just now: Google Trends: jesus
I don't see why they just move the Vat over there. It seems like a won battle to me already.
[INDENT]'..tolerance when fog rolls in clouds unfold your selfless wings feathers that float from arabesque pillows I sold to be consumed by the snow white cold if only the plaster could hold withstand the flam[url="http://bit.ly/foT0XQ"]e[/url] then this fountain torch would know no shame and be outstripped only by the sun that burns with the glory and honor of your..'[/INDENT]
''In effect, the proclamation of Jesus and of his Gospel did not at any point involve an alienation of the pre-Columbus cultures, nor was it the imposition of a foreign culture,'' he told the bishops.
Indeed, it simply involved the alienation of pre-Columbus cultures, and imposed the culture of the invading conquistadores.
Indeed, it simply involved the alienation of pre-Columbus cultures, and imposed the culture of the invading conquistadores.
CYNIC, n.:
A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.
-[url="http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/devils/a.html"]The Devil's Dictionary[/url]
A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.
-[url="http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/devils/a.html"]The Devil's Dictionary[/url]
- fable
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This is getting quite a lot of headline airplay on BBC News, at the moment. Apparently, a number of major indigenous leaders have already started calling on Benedict XVI to take back his comments that rewrite history.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
- dragon wench
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Yes, I'd heard that, I think I also saw several articles in the Observer as well.fable wrote:This is getting quite a lot of headline airplay on BBC News, at the moment. Apparently, a number of major indigenous leaders have already started calling on Benedict XVI to take back his comments that rewrite history.
In addition to the horrifying rewriting of history that he's attempting, I also find this curious..
That begs the question, "what does he want exactly?" Now, I could give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he prefers "The Liberal State" with a mixed economy; however, I have trouble believing this, given the rigid social controls this man would like to place upon people.''The Marxist system, where it found its way into government, not only left a sad heritage of economic and ecological destruction, but also a painful destruction of the human spirit,'' the pope said.
He also warned of unfettered capitalism and globalization. Before boarding a plane for Rome later Sunday, he said the two could give ''rise to a worrying degradation of personal dignity through drugs, alcohol and deceptive illusions of happiness.''
So... I'm wondering... is he talking about some form of feudalism here? The kind that existed during the Middle Ages wherein the Catholic Church had almost absolute control? Or perhaps it's an authoritarian dictatorship that he'd rather have...
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- DarthMarth
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- fable
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At a guess, the final and utter destruction of Liberation Theology, which JP2 attempted to bludgeon to death with plenty of unfrockings and the movement of "trouble" priests out of poverty-stricken areas. JP2 largely succeeded, as well, and I don't mind in the least, since it might a number of people fell back upon their animist cultural roots for help. Ultimately, that's where they should have turned, right from the start. The idea that the RCC would stand by them was a good and noble one, but entirely dependent upon the Pope-of-the-day. With JP2, they got the more intestinal end of the stick. You don't look for revolution (not necessarily governmental in nature) anywhere else but at home.dragon wench wrote:That begs the question, "what does he want exactly?"
I suspect Benedict would like to think of it as a benign authoritarianism in which he acts as the spokesperson for his God, and the rest of humanity understands, and obeys. This would not be any different from most of the popes throughout history, aside from a few who they will admit are probably rotting in hell, and whom I hope to keep company there someday, if Christian eschatology is correct. (Maybe you and Lady Dragonfly can also show up. We can have a foursome for bridge, or possibly just poker.) It's not absolute control, from the RCC's perspective. It's simply doing what's right. And when you look at it closely, it's not that different from strict hierarchal cultural systems such as caste and jiri. Each entails submitting to a code of morals/ethics. Supposedly, you achieve a degree of internal freedom by doing so, and understanding why. I don't, which makes me just another ignorant witch.Now, I could give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he prefers "The Liberal State" with a mixed economy; however, I have trouble believing this, given the rigid social controls this man would like to place upon people.
So... I'm wondering... is he talking about some form of feudalism here? The kind that existed during the Middle Ages wherein the Catholic Church had almost absolute control? Or perhaps it's an authoritarian dictatorship that he'd rather have...
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
Well at least he got the silently part right. Not so sure about the longing. Reminds me of reading Graham Greene, The Power and The Glory, about 1930s a very humble wine sodden monk wandering around chased by the marxist police. Long time ago, I read.
Right Speech has four aspects: 1. Not lying, but speaking the truth, 2. Avoiding rude and coarse words, but using gentle speech beneficial to the listener, 3. Not slandering, but promoting friendliness and unity, 4. Avoiding frivolous speech, but saying only what is appropriate and beneficial.
It wasn't actually JP2 that was responsible, it was almost entirely the work of Cardinal Ratzinger aka 'Gods Rottweiler', who now of course has a different title and name.fable wrote:At a guess, the final and utter destruction of Liberation Theology, which JP2 attempted to bludgeon to death with plenty of unfrockings and the movement of "trouble" priests out of poverty-stricken areas. JP2 largely succeeded, as well, and I don't mind in the least, since it might a number of people fell back upon their animist cultural roots for help.
He might be the Pope now, but hasn't lost his appetite for controversy and BS.
[QUOTE=Darth Gavinius;1096098]Distrbution of games, is becoming a little like Democracy (all about money and control) - in the end choice is an illusion and you have to choose your lesser evil.
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
Well, at least the claim of 'silently longing' is an improvement above 'threatening to burn them to death if they don't convert'. That was SO last 310s, 1180-1230s, 1470s, 1530s and 1830s (just hand picked a few). Kinda makes you wonder what large parts of Europe would have looked like today if they had retained some of their indigenous religions and culture over the centuries. But, who talks about that now.
[INDENT]'..tolerance when fog rolls in clouds unfold your selfless wings feathers that float from arabesque pillows I sold to be consumed by the snow white cold if only the plaster could hold withstand the flam[url="http://bit.ly/foT0XQ"]e[/url] then this fountain torch would know no shame and be outstripped only by the sun that burns with the glory and honor of your..'[/INDENT]
I'm speechless.
My country is completely devoid of any history/cutlure/whatever that is not catholic. The first date from Poland's history children learn is the year when some prince converted to christianism. "There is nothing before" they say to us. We know nothing of any "before", and never shall, because it's too late now to learn anything.
And that's exactly what B16 says to those people right now... "we haven't massacred you and ruined you... we gave you what you wanted! You wanted this all the time, you were vegetating down here begging for conquistadors! And we were wise enough to know that, and came here to save you guys! What? What ruined civilizations? There weren't any! There was nothing here before we came".
Well, if I was his god, just and wise and omniscient, I'd get a good thunderbolt out of my closet right now. The fact nothing of the sort happens makes me wonder...
My country is completely devoid of any history/cutlure/whatever that is not catholic. The first date from Poland's history children learn is the year when some prince converted to christianism. "There is nothing before" they say to us. We know nothing of any "before", and never shall, because it's too late now to learn anything.
And that's exactly what B16 says to those people right now... "we haven't massacred you and ruined you... we gave you what you wanted! You wanted this all the time, you were vegetating down here begging for conquistadors! And we were wise enough to know that, and came here to save you guys! What? What ruined civilizations? There weren't any! There was nothing here before we came".
Well, if I was his god, just and wise and omniscient, I'd get a good thunderbolt out of my closet right now. The fact nothing of the sort happens makes me wonder...
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The Pale Mansion : My e-published lovecraftian novella! You should totally check it out!
- fable
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Well, we agree completely on Ratzinger, who was once regarded as one of the up and coming liberals of the RCC. But if you're stating that JP2 was t his puppet or mouthpiece, I'd like some backup materials for that. I've heard they thought alike, and that JP2 was firmly in charge.galraen wrote:It wasn't actually JP2 that was responsible, it was almost entirely the work of Cardinal Ratzinger aka 'Gods Rottweiler', who now of course has a different title and name.
That's the second time he's really put his foot in it, but I suspect here he has the excuse of thinking it was all in house, and he could get away with bare-faced lying. Alas, the lot of the head of a church of old white men is never easy!He might be the Pope now, but hasn't lost his appetite for controversy and BS.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
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Such an appropriate title considering my starting an American Indian Literature class this week. I'm sure many of the descendants of the "indigenous peoples" will completely vouch for that one. After all, it's not like their "savage" and "pagan" ways were leading them anywhere. That goes right up there with using the figure of Andrew Jackson in a celebration to promote togetherness and unity in a city full of blacks and American Indians (Tallahassee only within the last few years stopped that). He may have intended it to be a declaration to promote unity through Catholocism, but instead he's likely to create that much more divisiveness.
General: "Those aren't ideas; those are special effects."
Michael Bay: "I don't understand the difference."
Michael Bay: "I don't understand the difference."