Ranged Attacks
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TismeVader
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Ranged Attacks
is it just me or are the dnd rules for ranged combat rubbish. bows and crossbows dont do nearly enough damage at higer levels.
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Siberys
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....but they do.
Flaming +1 Morningstar, 1D8 damage + 1D6 damage +1.
Flaming +1 Longbow, 1D8 damage +1D6 damage +1.
Both are of equal value.
In actuality, Ranged weapons can be considered more powerful because of how you can enchant ammunition. Ammunition enchantments don't cost nearly as much as an enchantment on the weapon itself.
10 flaming arrows, 10 frost arrows, and 10 lightning arrows are actually cheaper than a +1 elemental damage (Flaming, Frost, Shock) Longbow, plus you have the versatility of not just having one single elemental damage but three.
Bows are much harder to train in, granted, but any fighter can pull that off with relative ease. Not to mention, if that fighter is an elf, one level of wizard and instant qualification for Arcane Archer, a basic but effective bow user class.
Flaming +1 Morningstar, 1D8 damage + 1D6 damage +1.
Flaming +1 Longbow, 1D8 damage +1D6 damage +1.
Both are of equal value.
In actuality, Ranged weapons can be considered more powerful because of how you can enchant ammunition. Ammunition enchantments don't cost nearly as much as an enchantment on the weapon itself.
10 flaming arrows, 10 frost arrows, and 10 lightning arrows are actually cheaper than a +1 elemental damage (Flaming, Frost, Shock) Longbow, plus you have the versatility of not just having one single elemental damage but three.
Bows are much harder to train in, granted, but any fighter can pull that off with relative ease. Not to mention, if that fighter is an elf, one level of wizard and instant qualification for Arcane Archer, a basic but effective bow user class.
Listen up maggots, Mr. Popo's 'bout to teach you the pecking order.
It goes you, the dirt, the worms inside of the dirt, Popo's stool, Kami, then Popo.
~Mr. Popo, Dragonball Z Abridged
It goes you, the dirt, the worms inside of the dirt, Popo's stool, Kami, then Popo.
~Mr. Popo, Dragonball Z Abridged
But magical ammo is destroyed once used. So, after thirty shots, your 10 arrows of each type, are all exhausted and you have to pay again. It's better to enchant your bow and use arrow to deal with DR. The best part, however, is that you can carry around lots of ammo of different materials. (Cold Iron, Adamantium, Silver, Byeshk).
Some of the most damaging builds are archers. Also remember you can have bows made for great STR. Also, with an attack range of 120 ft or more, you can lay down the smack before the meleeguys are even close.
Some of the most damaging builds are archers. Also remember you can have bows made for great STR. Also, with an attack range of 120 ft or more, you can lay down the smack before the meleeguys are even close.
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Siberys
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Not true, part of the time when you miss an enemy, magical ammo has a 50% chance of still being in tact. And I'd estimate that you'd miss an enemy 40% of the time.But magical ammo is destroyed once used.
Granted, magical ammo is still a waste then, but it's a little longer lasting than what one would expect.
Listen up maggots, Mr. Popo's 'bout to teach you the pecking order.
It goes you, the dirt, the worms inside of the dirt, Popo's stool, Kami, then Popo.
~Mr. Popo, Dragonball Z Abridged
It goes you, the dirt, the worms inside of the dirt, Popo's stool, Kami, then Popo.
~Mr. Popo, Dragonball Z Abridged
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Fiberfar
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I suppose she could go NwN on the arrows and add implosion or some such nonsense. One arrow kills 10GawainBS wrote:But still, I'd be a waste. Our Archer nearly never misses, so her ammo would always be destroyed.
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TismeVader
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[quote="Siberys"]....but they do.
Flaming +1 Morningstar, 1D8 damage + 1D6 damage +1.
Flaming +1 Longbow, 1D8 damage +1D6 damage +1.
Both are of equal value.
QUOTE]
however you forgot to add str mod to damage for melee.
1st lvl half orc with str 20 using a greatclub (5gp)
damage 1D10+7
the same character using a Mighty Comp Shortbow (+5 STR) (450gp)
damage 1D6+5
no contest
Flaming +1 Morningstar, 1D8 damage + 1D6 damage +1.
Flaming +1 Longbow, 1D8 damage +1D6 damage +1.
Both are of equal value.
QUOTE]
however you forgot to add str mod to damage for melee.
1st lvl half orc with str 20 using a greatclub (5gp)
damage 1D10+7
the same character using a Mighty Comp Shortbow (+5 STR) (450gp)
damage 1D6+5
no contest
And that Half Orc could use a Composite Longbow, making it 1d8+5, while he could also be shooting from as far as 120 ft without penalty, while using Rapid Shot with a -2 penalty, doing, in fact: 2d8 +10 damage. (If he only has one attack.)
I will not say that Archery will always be THE most damaging style, but don't underestimate it. The higher the level, the more damaging it gets.
Like most things in D&D, it depends on you knowing what you're doing and knowing your books.
I will not say that Archery will always be THE most damaging style, but don't underestimate it. The higher the level, the more damaging it gets.
Like most things in D&D, it depends on you knowing what you're doing and knowing your books.
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Siberys
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Yeah, that's just a difference of how effective a weapon is in the short run and long run.1st lvl half orc with str 20 using a greatclub (5gp)
damage 1D10+7
the same character using a Mighty Comp Shortbow (+5 STR) (450gp)
damage 1D6+5
Sure, the orc starts off with a high strength and a huge weapon, maybe gets a few enchantments and whatnot, but bow users have it better in the long run.
Granted, less damage occurs. This is true. But, it's at a range, not to mention you are usually a long way away from the enemy so you won't be taking a beating unlike the half orc. You have an assortment of cheap but effective at times arrows, the orc only has a single weapon. Not to mention, some of the feats just in the players handbook can give a bow user a higher attack bonus by 20th level than a melee weapon user.
Melee weapon user- Weapon Focus and Greater Focus, base attack +20, 16 average strength, +3. Total 25.
Bow user- Weapon Focus, Greater Focus, Point Blank Shot, precise shot, an average high dexterity of 16, AND a strength bonus of +2 with a composite longbow. Total attack +26 with virtually no penalties under common obstacles.
Now, this isn't to say that bow users are the end all weapons masters. A melee weapon specialist can be just as effective as a bow user, a bow user isn't always 100% less is my point.
Listen up maggots, Mr. Popo's 'bout to teach you the pecking order.
It goes you, the dirt, the worms inside of the dirt, Popo's stool, Kami, then Popo.
~Mr. Popo, Dragonball Z Abridged
It goes you, the dirt, the worms inside of the dirt, Popo's stool, Kami, then Popo.
~Mr. Popo, Dragonball Z Abridged
To further underline Syberis' point, I'll put up one Core-only build Archer and one Non-core. Both will have a terrifying easy time with laying low most meleebuilds.
Core-only: Bard10/Arcane Archer10.
Max Move Silently & Hide, Listen & Spot + Ranks in tumble & use magic device.
Inspire Courage +2.
He can caste Haste.
He gets a +1 Holy Keen Wounding Flaming Shocking Frost Seeking Longbow, which is Mighty +4.
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Far Shot.
He can start shooting the meleecombatatans at 180 ft with no penalty. He can hide from them and snipe. He has Haste. (And Invisibility). He has UMD, and he has Tumble, so he can avoid AoO.
His Arcane Archer class features let him treat his arrows as +5. His Attack would be: +30/+30/+30/+25/+20/+15 with Rapid Shot, ignoring Miss Chance. Each hit would do 1d8 + 11 + 3d6 + 1 CON + 2d6 vs Evil.
Non-Core: Scout 16 / Ranger 4.
Get Swift Hunter (Complete Scoundrel), Improved Skirmish (Complete Scoundrel), Greater Manyshot (EPH, non-psionic, though.) and the Splitting enhancement on your bow, which doubles the arrows fired.
It amounts to something along: 1d8 + 7d6 + 10 and that 10 times a round, at the least.
Core-only: Bard10/Arcane Archer10.
Max Move Silently & Hide, Listen & Spot + Ranks in tumble & use magic device.
Inspire Courage +2.
He can caste Haste.
He gets a +1 Holy Keen Wounding Flaming Shocking Frost Seeking Longbow, which is Mighty +4.
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Far Shot.
He can start shooting the meleecombatatans at 180 ft with no penalty. He can hide from them and snipe. He has Haste. (And Invisibility). He has UMD, and he has Tumble, so he can avoid AoO.
His Arcane Archer class features let him treat his arrows as +5. His Attack would be: +30/+30/+30/+25/+20/+15 with Rapid Shot, ignoring Miss Chance. Each hit would do 1d8 + 11 + 3d6 + 1 CON + 2d6 vs Evil.
Non-Core: Scout 16 / Ranger 4.
Get Swift Hunter (Complete Scoundrel), Improved Skirmish (Complete Scoundrel), Greater Manyshot (EPH, non-psionic, though.) and the Splitting enhancement on your bow, which doubles the arrows fired.
It amounts to something along: 1d8 + 7d6 + 10 and that 10 times a round, at the least.
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TismeVader
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TismeVader
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Thanks, you just made it al the more likely. Allthough at an effective +10 bonus, it's 200 800gp. Bonus squared times two times thousand gp + cost of masterwork weapon. Considering at lvl 20 you're supposed to have 760000gp, this isn't that unlikely.
Even if the DM is a prick and won't let me shop "à la carte", I take leadership and a cohort Mystic Theurge, who can easily craft this weapon for me.
Note that this is 100% core.
Allthough at an effective +10 bonus, it's 200 800gp. Bonus squared times two times thousand gp + cost of masterwork weapon. Considering at lvl 20 you're supposed to have 760000gp, this isn't that unlikely.Even if the DM is a prick and won't let me shop "à la carte", I take leadership and a cohort Mystic Theurge, who can easily craft this weapon for me.
Note that this is 100% core.
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Siberys
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+1 from enhancement.TismeVader wrote:what are the chances of getting a "+1 Holy Keen Wounding Flaming Shocking Frost Seeking Longbow, which is Mighty +4"
+2 Holy.
+1 Keen.
+2 Wounding.
+1 Flaming.
+1 Shocking
+1 Seeking
+1 Frost
It's 200,800 gold bought, but impossible to make considering bows cannot be enchanted with wounding. Wounding is a melee weapon special ability only, and uses a melee weapon spell for the enchantment purposes.
Chances of finding it is up to the mind of the DM, crafting it just takes a wizard/sorcerer/artificer with the appropriate craft weapon/armor feat and the gold and experience.
EDIT: Just realized I forgot to add in the frost part, but even though the information is the same as what's been said, still a good idea for the link to be out there.
Magic Weapons :: d20srd.org
Listen up maggots, Mr. Popo's 'bout to teach you the pecking order.
It goes you, the dirt, the worms inside of the dirt, Popo's stool, Kami, then Popo.
~Mr. Popo, Dragonball Z Abridged
It goes you, the dirt, the worms inside of the dirt, Popo's stool, Kami, then Popo.
~Mr. Popo, Dragonball Z Abridged
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Siberys
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Right, exactly. On top of the Nice bow selection you can buy, arcane archer adds quite a bit more damage as well.GawainBS wrote:Oh, well, forgot about Wounding being melee-only, but still, the point remains, eh?
Also, let's not forget the standard melee fighter characters. A Bow user can focus all his magic enchantments on just the bow and a little on the armor. But a melee user has to get a lot for his armor due to him taking the majority of hits, a lot on his weapon if he wants to do anything to the enemy, and a lot to a shield if he uses a shield or another weapon if he uses two weapon fighting.
and even though a fighter can do a lot more damage at times with melee weapons, enchantments for a bow user are so much cheaper, leaving room for other cool things that one might want, such as the always and ever-useful Necklace of Fireballs.
Listen up maggots, Mr. Popo's 'bout to teach you the pecking order.
It goes you, the dirt, the worms inside of the dirt, Popo's stool, Kami, then Popo.
~Mr. Popo, Dragonball Z Abridged
It goes you, the dirt, the worms inside of the dirt, Popo's stool, Kami, then Popo.
~Mr. Popo, Dragonball Z Abridged
Not to mention an archer has more use out of Jumping and Climbing, for example. He can jump over crevices and climb up walls and lay down the smack from there: yet another obstacle for melee characters to overcome.
Also, he is often the SDM: Squad Designated Marksmen. Annoying Wizard? The Archers takes him down in one, maybe two rounds. Filthy Cleric overthere? 2, maybe three rounds. Annoying rogue hitting and fading? Let the archer ready an action to nail him.
Ofcourse, most archers are rather frail and can't keep absorbing hits in melee. That's why the best parties have different specialists. Paladins keep the frontlines stable, Clerics help them and dish out some major hurt later and control the battlefield, Wizards do so as well and disable large groups, Rogues scout and flank, Archers take on high-threat-value targets. They form a consistent whole.
So, don't dismiss a single aspect of the game as "pointless" because its potential isn't clear from the outset.
Also, he is often the SDM: Squad Designated Marksmen. Annoying Wizard? The Archers takes him down in one, maybe two rounds. Filthy Cleric overthere? 2, maybe three rounds. Annoying rogue hitting and fading? Let the archer ready an action to nail him.
Ofcourse, most archers are rather frail and can't keep absorbing hits in melee. That's why the best parties have different specialists. Paladins keep the frontlines stable, Clerics help them and dish out some major hurt later and control the battlefield, Wizards do so as well and disable large groups, Rogues scout and flank, Archers take on high-threat-value targets. They form a consistent whole.
So, don't dismiss a single aspect of the game as "pointless" because its potential isn't clear from the outset.
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spartan 116
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