I need to know something about backstabbing. See I can't find anything in the manual about backstabbing being a rogue-specific ability. On most BG websites and forums it just sort of assumed only they use it because no other class can raise their hide in shadows ability.
You can only backstab with daggers, that much is certain. Can I equip a character with daggers, say a pure kensai, use spells or equipment to make the character invisible, and thén backstab someone?
Backstab = rogue-only skill?
Backstab = rogue-only skill?
[INDENT]'..tolerance when fog rolls in clouds unfold your selfless wings feathers that float from arabesque pillows I sold to be consumed by the snow white cold if only the plaster could hold withstand the flam[url="http://bit.ly/foT0XQ"]e[/url] then this fountain torch would know no shame and be outstripped only by the sun that burns with the glory and honor of your..'[/INDENT]
I'm pretty sure you can't let a kensai backstab. Thieves can backstab. Stalkers can to. To be able to backstab, you need the backstab multiplier which you can't get with most characters. Not sure if you can edit this with shadowkeeper though.
Also worth noting, all weapons available to a single class thief can be used to backstab, not only daggers.
Also worth noting, all weapons available to a single class thief can be used to backstab, not only daggers.
Noted. I realize now another game might actually be responsible for leading me to think backstabbing goes with daggers.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Thanks for clearing that up.
[INDENT]'..tolerance when fog rolls in clouds unfold your selfless wings feathers that float from arabesque pillows I sold to be consumed by the snow white cold if only the plaster could hold withstand the flam[url="http://bit.ly/foT0XQ"]e[/url] then this fountain torch would know no shame and be outstripped only by the sun that burns with the glory and honor of your..'[/INDENT]
The manual doesn't say that backstabbing is a Thief-specific ability per se, probably because 1) Stalkers can backstab, even though they're not Thieves (see page 86 of the manual), and 2) Swashbucklers can't backstab, even though they're one of the Thief kits (see page 89 of the manual). That muddies the waters, so to speak, so it would be misleading to say that backstabbing is "a Thief-specific ability".
I couldn't find a list of backstabbing weapons anywhere in the manual, but the rule is that any melee weapon that is usable by a Thief can be used as a backstabbing weapon. That includes daggers, clubs, quarterstaves, longswords, short swords, katanas, and scimitars. Ranged weapons are excluded. Items that cannot be used by Thieves (without making use of the Use Any Item ability) do not have a Thief "flag", so they cannot be used as backstabbing weapons. That includes the Staff of the Magi, which cannot be used as a backstabbing weapon even though it is a quarterstaff, and weapons such as two-handed swords, which are normally not usable by Thieves.
If you were to use an item editor to add a Thief flag to a particular weapon (a mace or Carsomyr, for instance), then it could be used as a backstabbing weapon, even though that type of weapon cannot normally be used for backstabbing. The Thief flag makes all the difference. The thing is, any weapon that has a Thief flag can be used by any Thief. That creates an insurmountable problem. To take a striking example, the Staff of the Magi is not supposed to be used by any Thief without the Use Any Item ability, so it doesn't have a Thief flag. But without the Thief flag, it cannot be used as backstabbing weapon, even though quarterstaves are supposed to be suitable for backstabbing. See the dilemma? I don't think the game designers intended to make the Staff of the Magi unsuitable for backstabbing; they simply couldn't make it suitable, given the limitations in the game engine. It's probably just as well: with unlimited invisibility, it would be very cheesy if you could.
(I actually made a version of the Staff of the Magi that can be used by Thieves and uploaded it to this forum. The price for making it suitable for backstabbing is that any Thief can use it. You can probably find it if you search for it. I don't use it myself. It's very cheesy, as I said.)
I couldn't find a list of backstabbing weapons anywhere in the manual, but the rule is that any melee weapon that is usable by a Thief can be used as a backstabbing weapon. That includes daggers, clubs, quarterstaves, longswords, short swords, katanas, and scimitars. Ranged weapons are excluded. Items that cannot be used by Thieves (without making use of the Use Any Item ability) do not have a Thief "flag", so they cannot be used as backstabbing weapons. That includes the Staff of the Magi, which cannot be used as a backstabbing weapon even though it is a quarterstaff, and weapons such as two-handed swords, which are normally not usable by Thieves.
If you were to use an item editor to add a Thief flag to a particular weapon (a mace or Carsomyr, for instance), then it could be used as a backstabbing weapon, even though that type of weapon cannot normally be used for backstabbing. The Thief flag makes all the difference. The thing is, any weapon that has a Thief flag can be used by any Thief. That creates an insurmountable problem. To take a striking example, the Staff of the Magi is not supposed to be used by any Thief without the Use Any Item ability, so it doesn't have a Thief flag. But without the Thief flag, it cannot be used as backstabbing weapon, even though quarterstaves are supposed to be suitable for backstabbing. See the dilemma? I don't think the game designers intended to make the Staff of the Magi unsuitable for backstabbing; they simply couldn't make it suitable, given the limitations in the game engine. It's probably just as well: with unlimited invisibility, it would be very cheesy if you could.
(I actually made a version of the Staff of the Magi that can be used by Thieves and uploaded it to this forum. The price for making it suitable for backstabbing is that any Thief can use it. You can probably find it if you search for it. I don't use it myself. It's very cheesy, as I said.)
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wise grimwald
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Crenshinibon
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You can backstab with any weapon that a vanilla thief can use. Also, I have reason to believe (I actually tested this) but any character that has the stealth ability (rangers, swashbucklers and monks) can backstab. I am not sure about the characters without the ability though.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”
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Crenshinibon
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There is a bug that raises the multiplier. Still though, the Stalker can get great backstabs because of his Critical Strike abilities... then again, so can a Kensai Thief at about 700 damage.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”
any character that can be invisible can 'backstab' but only thieves officially get a damage multiplier - and only then when they use a weapon that is naturally available to them.
I have used the staff of the ram to backstab, but like using Razorlight. My backstabs usually get about 80 damage with my multi f/m/t PC, but have hit well into 3 figures.
enemies just explode when you get a high enough score!
I have used the staff of the ram to backstab, but like using Razorlight. My backstabs usually get about 80 damage with my multi f/m/t PC, but have hit well into 3 figures.
enemies just explode when you get a high enough score!
"All the world's a stage and all the men and women merely players"
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Crenshinibon
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That's not that much damage... in fact, it's very very low. As a Kensai/Thief I do a maximum (and a constant) of 700 damage every backstab with Staff of the Ram +6. The second weapon seems to be a mod weapon so I wouldn't know it.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”
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Crenshinibon
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Don't leave out the Assassin/Cleric. I expect that a fighter/mage/thief or a thief/mage might be able to match that though I haven't tried.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”
stab in the dark
with so many people on here describing the kensai as an inherently "cheesy" character class, I haven't played that combination.
my vanilla multi-thief was doing a 'plain' backstab in my example - I was not talking about his capacity to perform an 'assassination' backstab. I did mention that some backstabs were well into 3 figs - and that is without augmentation.
I can't see how 80 points would be 'low' anyhow - 'modest' perhaps, but I wasn't boasting. Perhaps I am on the wrong thread. I don't think the developers envisaged the game being played with the capacity for a regular 700 point hit. if that is true, then the game must get boring, and almost pointless were it not for so many enemies using 'true sight'.
"Razorlight" was a joke BTW - it's a band with a similar name to the actual sword "Blackrazor".
with so many people on here describing the kensai as an inherently "cheesy" character class, I haven't played that combination.
my vanilla multi-thief was doing a 'plain' backstab in my example - I was not talking about his capacity to perform an 'assassination' backstab. I did mention that some backstabs were well into 3 figs - and that is without augmentation.
I can't see how 80 points would be 'low' anyhow - 'modest' perhaps, but I wasn't boasting. Perhaps I am on the wrong thread. I don't think the developers envisaged the game being played with the capacity for a regular 700 point hit. if that is true, then the game must get boring, and almost pointless were it not for so many enemies using 'true sight'.
"Razorlight" was a joke BTW - it's a band with a similar name to the actual sword "Blackrazor".
"All the world's a stage and all the men and women merely players"
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Crenshinibon
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That damage is dealt my a Kensai/THief backstabbing while under the ffects of Kai and Critical strike. Also, a thief that is hidden in shadows and is wearing the Cloak of Nun-Detection is unaffected by True Sight. At level 40 you should be doing perhaps twice that. That damage was backstab damage and either way, your Assassination damage should match your backstab damage.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”
Kensai's aren't cheesy, what's cheesy about them is that when dualclassed, they loose their no-armor restrictions, which is there to balance their insane bonus stats. So when you dual it to X, you get a Fighter/X but with sick bonuses.Celacena wrote:with so many people on here describing the kensai as an inherently "cheesy" character class, I haven't played that combination.
my vanilla multi-thief was doing a 'plain' backstab in my example - I was not talking about his capacity to perform an 'assassination' backstab. I did mention that some backstabs were well into 3 figs - and that is without augmentation.
I can't see how 80 points would be 'low' anyhow - 'modest' perhaps, but I wasn't boasting. Perhaps I am on the wrong thread. I don't think the developers envisaged the game being played with the capacity for a regular 700 point hit. if that is true, then the game must get boring, and almost pointless were it not for so many enemies using 'true sight'.
"Razorlight" was a joke BTW - it's a band with a similar name to the actual sword "Blackrazor".
And 80 is very low indeed. A full-fledged kensai with good equipment can hit regular hits for 45-50 damage. I'd say that 100-200 damage is average for backstabbing. Normal backstabbing goes to 5x or something, right? Just using a +5 weapon instead of +3 gives you 10-20 extra damage, high strenght should give a lot more.
Do they always loose the "no armour" restriction? I don't think so. I think kensai-thief is considered cheesy exactly because of that - while other dualed kensais still can't use armour, the UAI'd thief can, and so kensai can, too.Kensai's aren't cheesy, what's cheesy about them is that when dualclassed, they loose their no-armor restrictions.
Incidentally, does anyone know why my cloak of non-detection does not work? I've tried to use it, but the thief is visible after any mage casts true sight
Kitchen Witchcraft : Of Magic and Macaroni - a blog about, well, a witch in the kitchen.
The Pale Mansion : My e-published lovecraftian novella! You should totally check it out!
The Pale Mansion : My e-published lovecraftian novella! You should totally check it out!
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Crenshinibon
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The cloak doesn't shield any illusion spells from True Sight. Only a naturally hidden character. If still your thief is revealed then I'd assume that it's a bug.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”
Strange, I could've sworn that they all lost it. I've heard it in the discussion about why kensai/mage is so much better than fighter/mage, and I couldn't imagine that Kuro was being cheesy with me all that time. (He do wear Vecna, doesnt he?) Still, I tried it just now and nope, neither while being a kensai>mage with magelevel lower or higher than the kensai could he wear a normal mage armor or bracers. I'm sorry that I claimed such a thing without having tested it enough myself.QuenGalad wrote:Do they always loose the "no armour" restriction? I don't think so. I think kensai-thief is considered cheesy exactly because of that - while other dualed kensais still can't use armour, the UAI'd thief can, and so kensai can, too.
Incidentally, does anyone know why my cloak of non-detection does not work? I've tried to use it, but the thief is visible after any mage casts true sight
And I never got the non-detection to work myself either. Maybe a good thing, since it would've been too cheesy to use anyway.
Hey, it's all right. You haven't done anything wrong. And I share your conviction about the non-detection being too good However, I can't remember how did I try it, so maybe it is like Crenshinibon says, and I've been trying with spells? Dunno, it was long ago...
However, I can't remember how did I try it, so maybe it is like Crenshinibon says, and I've been trying with spells? Dunno, it was long ago...Kitchen Witchcraft : Of Magic and Macaroni - a blog about, well, a witch in the kitchen.
The Pale Mansion : My e-published lovecraftian novella! You should totally check it out!
The Pale Mansion : My e-published lovecraftian novella! You should totally check it out!