Why this incarnation? Memories... (Spoilers)

Darpaek · Post by **Darpaek** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:13 pm

I've never been able to figure out why this incarnation of the Nameless One doesn't lose his memory when he dies (after he wakes up in the Mortuary at the beginning of the game).

Did I just miss a line of dialogue somewhere? Can anyone explain?

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:05 am

Two reasons I can think of: your companions are with you, they can tell what happened and you got a journal.
But it's explicitly stated that this time you didn't forget... Wasn't it something with those Shadows? Didn't they "drain" your memories, each time? Not sure about this. Hard to explain, since you forgot everything the first time Ravel killed you...

Vladimir · Post by **Vladimir** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:05 pm

I believe an in-game explanation involves the manner of your death. The more traumatic the death the greater chance of loosing yourself.

Star Trek rules also apply: The Enterprise moves at the speed of a plot.

C-K'R[PhoEniX] · Post by **C-K'R[PhoEniX]** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:43 pm

I am playing the game right now and I think there is an explanation. When you find the journal (dedocahedron) of one of your previous incarnations, it mentions that this psychotic incarnation somehow found out that after he died a couple more times, he would stop losing memories, but he also pointed out that he didn't want to die because he would no longer be himself then. That may be it, although I can't remember if the reasons why the NO would stop losing memories were also mentioned.

Nightmare · Post by **Nightmare** » Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:22 am

Its been a while, but I'm fairly certain you only forget if you're killed by Shadows. Their being sent at you so that you don't remember who IS sending them at you (TTO).

I remember, for some reason, this being in a conversation with Nordom.

Thrifalas · Post by **Thrifalas** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:59 am

MAJOR SPOILERIFFIC POST

Interesting topic, seeing how you can only get "game over" in Fortress of Regrets, the place where you actually are killed by shadows. If that means that you get a Game Over because you loose your memory and it's impossible for you to get back onto track, you know TTO killed all your "guides"...

Whoa. If that's true, another well-thought out thing in this intense masterpiece ^^

phelot43 · Post by **phelot43** » Sun Nov 18, 2007 1:12 am

My first play though this game, I thought the incarnations lost their memory only when they died in The Fortress of Regrets. Obviously this isn't the case.

If I had to guess then you might lose them only if killed by shadows and there's no companions around to fend them off? In other words, maybe they do something to you after you die?

This seems unlikely, because I think Morte mentions a few incarnations that died such as the insano that wanted to smash Morte and eat him. This incarnation was smashed by a runaway cart or something and died, but Morte never mentions that memories were lost...

As someone else said, the most likely reason is that only traumatic deaths will cause the memory loss.

Good thread BTW!

TheCrazdPariah · Post by **TheCrazdPariah** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:27 am

But don't forget that the first incarnation lost his memories after being killed by Ravel. The nameless one loses his memory because of the ritual as it has something to do with forgetting how to die. I don't know enough to say why this particular incarnation doesn't lose his memories, perhaps its a prophecy or one of the powers is tampering. Hope this helps.

Brother None · Post by **Brother None** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:29 am

Darpaek wrote:I've never been able to figure out why this incarnation of the Nameless One doesn't lose his memory when he dies (after he wakes up in the Mortuary at the beginning of the game).

Did I just miss a line of dialogue somewhere? Can anyone explain?

Here's MCA's spoiler-heavy official explanation when I [url="http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/article?articleid=56&ref=0&id=208"]asked him that question[/url]:
Every time the Nameless One dies before the start of the game, his personality is erased. This is the result of the magic that the night hag Ravel performed on him to make him immortal, since everything Ravel did always had a brutal drawback that unmakes all her altruistic efforts. She discovered that he lost his memory after she “tested” her work by killing the player - the player woke up and had forgotten her and the reason he had asked for immortality in the first place. Rinse and repeat for a few thousand incarnations or more.

As the start of the game, however, Ravel's "blessing" is breaking down, and the Nameless One is actually able to remember his previous deaths up until the start of the game. Ironically, this coincides with the fact that his mental degradation is also escalating, and the longer he is killed and reborn, he will eventually become nothing more than a mindless zombie that is impossible to kill. Once he loses his will, there will be no way for him to save himself - or at least discover what drove him to this state. The events of the game is his last chance in his lifetimes to put things right.

Thrasher91604 · Post by **Thrasher91604** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:52 pm

Still really don't have a good in game explanation of why dying in the Fortress of Regrets is game ending.

I believe everywhere else, dying is not game ending.

Why would death by shadows in the Fortress of Regrets be considered more "traumatic" than death by Moridor's box demon, for example, or shadows in Sigil, or ...? I just don't buy the trauma explanation.

What makes more sense, is because there are no companions to be there when you revive. But you still have your journal with you. I suppose the shadows in the Fortress of Regret could be smart enough to destroy your journal.

But, consider if Morte got killed, and you have no companions. Dying in Sigil wouldn't be permanent. Which makes sense because of the Dustman guy with big book looking out for you. But what if you died someplace else, like the Modron Cube. No companions, no dustmen, yet you awake with all your memories, I believe...

There just doesn't seem to be a consistent explanation.

TheCrazdPariah · Post by **TheCrazdPariah** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:22 pm

Don't you die permenently because you are cut off from the planes. I don't know exactly why by getting killed by shadows could kill you because I thought the sword was supposed to be the only thing that could permently kill you. I guess because the shadows are connected with you and since you are seperated from the planes, it allows them to permently kill you same as the sword. Hope this helps.

Thrasher91604 · Post by **Thrasher91604** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:14 pm

Isn't the Fortress in the negative plane?

Crenshinibon · Post by **Crenshinibon** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:41 pm

When the Nameless One dies, someone living dies instead of him, thus giving him new life.

As he is cut off from the planes, that effect can't trigger and besides, there's nothing really "alive" on the Negative plane that would be able to take his place in death.

Brother None · Post by **Brother None** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:54 am

Crenshinibon wrote:When the Nameless One dies, someone living dies instead of him, thus giving him new life.

As he is cut off from the planes, that effect can't trigger and besides, there's nothing really "alive" on the Negative plane that would be able to take his place in death.

Yip, I believe that's the explanation for that particular one.

Even if it wasn't, if you die in the Fortress of Regrets, well, you're on the Transcendent One's turf, aren't you? Considering he spent the game following you and killing off all clues you left, don't you think he might be quite willing and able to remove all remaining hints and dump you back?

Thrasher91604 · Post by **Thrasher91604** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:50 pm

Yep, that makes the most sense. I think there could be other mortals on the Negative plane, travelers like Cambrian.

No companions to help you, and the Transcendant One who will do his best to make sure you don't remember. Keeping TNO from remembering though is still a bit vague. Maybe TTO can make TNO's death traumatic enough to insure he forgets?

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:15 am

But that's why you "need" your partymembers there: each death of you causes a partymember to die, no? IIRC, Morte & Dakkon tell you that they dragged you back from the fortress the last time.

Brother None · Post by **Brother None** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:25 am

There's also an added possibility that the "trauma" of death in the Fortress of Regrets - even with other mortals - can function as the tilting of the balance. The Transcendent One talks quite a bit about how he prefers TNO to be a mindless zombie, and seems convinced that killing the TNO right then and there will have that effect of finalizing the declining nature of the ritual of immortality.

Mikewind Dale · Post by **Mikewind Dale** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:59 am

A list of difficulties

As for why NO does not lose memories:
Since Ravel's killing him -> lose memories, it cannot be the shadows explanation
Since I see no basis for traumatic death (the present incarnation has plenty of traumatic ways to die), that cannot be it.

It seems that any death, at all, would make him lose his memories. That is why there was the prophesy that in a few incarnations, he would no longer lose them, period. Otherwise, any and all deaths make him lose his memory. But the current incarnation has a mysterious decree that he will not lose memories. (In Hebrew, this would be called a stam gezeirah - a "just-because decree" - Hebrew has some fantastic vocabulary for dialectics!)

And what is so special about this incarnation? There isn't anything so special about it that he deserves this decree, as far as I can tell. Perhaps he is special insofar as prophetically he will be the one to end the whole cycle, but this seems weak.

I suspect it's a plot device - if dying made him lose memories, then we'd lose the wonderful novelty of a protagonist who can die and be revived, and we'd have a normal RPG where die = reload game save.

But in such a beautiful plot, I regret having to invoke such a shoddy device - anyone have a better suggestion?

-------

As for why dying in the fortress --> permanent death:

Deionarra herself says that since the Fortress is in the Negative Material Plane, there is no one to die for him.

However, this is difficult because as someone pointed out, surely there is SOMEONE else living in the NMP. In fact, the githyanki ALL live there, no? So why can't a gith die for NO?

Also, the practical incarnation died in the Fortress, and yet the NO was resurrected just fine...? Why didn't that lead to Game Over?

Another difficulty: In conversation with TO, to scare him into merging with you, you must threaten to kill yourself with the special Blade of the Immortal from Coaxmetal. But why? If death in the Negative Material Plane, period, causes permanent death, why can't you threaten to kill yourself with a rock to the head?

Another difficulty: If Nameless One's dying in the NMP = permanent death, then the Transcendant One is off his rocker for trying to kill NO there! Rather, TO should transport NO out of the Fortress and then kill him, for in the conversation between NO and TO, TO says that he depends on NO's living, for the two have a link; TO does not want NO to die, but simply he wants NO to be far far away from NO, and without any memories. Were NO to die permanently, TO would die also, which is why one of the possible game endings is either killing yourself or threatening to kill yourself (which scares TO into merging). A game over for you is a game over for TO too.

This creates another difficulty: if you can scare TO by threatening your death, why is one option for you to engage in combat with TO? Surely TO knows that if he kills you in combat, he'll die too!

Perhaps TO (and his shadows in the Fortress) don't actually kill you, but rather put you on the brink of death (causing unconsciousness) where TO can transport you back to Sigil and kill you there? This would also solve the problem of why the Practical Incarnation's death didn't lead to permanent death. But this explanation does not seem to work, because dying in the Fortress --> Game Over. Since we know it is not by memory loss, it must be by permanent death.

---------------

Another difficulty: We know NO no longer loses memories. But with each incarnation's death, his mind supposedly weakens. But is this not the very opposite of no longer losing memories? His mind seems to have gotten stronger, not weaker! We could say that retaining memories anymore is a just-because decree of this particular incarnation, and has nothing to do with the fact that NO's mental abilities are weaking notwithstanding his retention of memories. But we'd still have another difficulty: The Practical Incarnation was approximately 1000 years into reincarnating, and yet he had a VERY strong mind - NO's mind doesn't seem to be weakening at all! If 1,000 years weakens him to the point of Practical Incarnation, NO will have to go another 9,000 years before his mind will weaken appreciably!

--------------

Another difficulty: With each incarnation, NO loses his memories, and thus also his Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. But why Strength, Constitution, and Dexterity? These are physical attributes, not related to his mind!

At the beginning of the game, you can set these attributes as you see fit, and apparently they are not dependent on what NO naturally was (i.e. don't claim that you in reality setting the attributes of the first original Named One), because you can set his strength to be low, despite his imposing physique.

I suspect it is a plot device.

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:32 pm

Githyanki don't live in the Negative Energy Plane: They generally live in the Astral Plane. No living thing could survive in the Negative Energy Plane, bar special circumstances. (i.e. The Fortress.)

Thrifalas · Post by **Thrifalas** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:56 pm

Mikewind Dale wrote: Another difficulty: In conversation with TO, to scare him into merging with you, you must threaten to kill yourself with the special Blade of the Immortal from Coaxmetal. But why? If death in the Negative Material Plane, period, causes permanent death, why can't you threaten to kill yourself with a rock to the head?

Another difficulty: If Nameless One's dying in the NMP = permanent death, then the Transcendant One is off his rocker for trying to kill NO there! Rather, TO should transport NO out of the Fortress and then kill him, for in the conversation between NO and TO, TO says that he depends on NO's living, for the two have a link; TO does not want NO to die, but simply he wants NO to be far far away from NO, and without any memories. Were NO to die permanently, TO would die also, which is why one of the possible game endings is either killing yourself or threatening to kill yourself (which scares TO into merging). A game over for you is a game over for TO too.

Maybe there are different deaths? I mean, a "game over" doesn't necessarily mean he permanently dies. It could be that he revives, but can't complete the game because everyone who knows the way to the Fortress of Regrets are dead.

TO is only afraid of NO permanently dieing. A rock to the head would just kill him, reviving him and would be exactly what TO wants as well. The same thing if TO kills him, he doesn't die, he just revives without any hope of solving the puzzle.

But, killing himself with the Blade that we know really kills him... TO doesn't want that, do he?