Final Musings (and huge, fat spoilers)

[Lady Dragonfly]

WARNING: Don't read if you haven't finished the game!

I finished The Witcher some time ago, with mixed feelings. On the one hand, the last chapter and the epilogue were rather uninspiring up to the very end (I personally think ch 2 was the best, 3-4 OK, 5 worse, 1 the worst), BUT, on the other hand, the ending was... should I say, intriguing?

After the final victory over the weird Grand Master (and the bluish Wild Hunt guy, whatever his mysterious deal with Geralt was in the past), I expected to be greeted with blaring fanfares and golden showers in the palace and meet privately with Triss, "the love of my life" , or at least to hear from her (wouldn't that be reasonable?). It's never happened (well, except a useful bag of coin). Instead, I watched an amazing, extremely well-crafted, totally unexpected final cutscene: there is a clear promise of a sequel/expansion, which I will most certainly buy and play.

What do you think of the Alvin-turned-Jacques de Aldersberg twist? I have to confess that I was so happy when the annoying boy finally teleported away :mischief:, I did not even care to look for him afterwards, in spite of my journal suggestion that maybe somebody heard something about his whereabouts. I was just glad to get rid of him - Alvin was driving me nuts. He was following Geralt around at night and screaming "Help me!" while the witcher was fighting tough monsters (and while the monsters were completely ignoring Alvin ). Did I miss anything? Who, except Shani, had anything to say about Alvin in Ch 5?

Anyway, I assume Alvin could time-travel? Does that not mean he existed as little Alvin AND the Grand Master at the same time? Why the Salamanders were trying to catch and kill Alvin??? We learned that GrMr was allied with them, so it does not make any sense. I also did not quite understand what GrMr meant by a "perfect human" (maybe because I tend to fast-click through the dialogues ) able to survive the "climate change" (yep, the lumberjacks did it, after all ). Big Brothers or witchers?
Any ideas?

[Xandax]

The Alvin bit was a surprise for me and I did not see it coming for once - although I wondered what Alvins part in it all was, right up till the end, it was a twist I did not see.

The Grand Masters "perfect" humans were mutations who can handle themselves (so to speak) in the apocalyptic iceage which was prophesied. It was why he stole the mutagens in chapter one, and it is why you fight so many mutants near the end.

As for the time travel bits, then it is a classic grandfather type paradox. Or more down to earth - a chicken and egg type situation.
One could speculate that because of The Witcher and training from Triss/Shani (depending on route), Alvin survived to "teleport" back into time to become the Grandmaster. This would mean that if he did not replicate the events, he would not have been pushed back into time, and he would not have been the grandmaster, and .... well, you get the drift.

I also have mixed feelings about the ending (I normally always do), and I did think the epilogue was just too long of too much fighting, it could have been cut in half without any loss of pace or story.
Where I'm very happy with the ending is that the "end boss" were not impervious and invulnerable to all the abilities you had used in the game and have trained up throughout the hours of gameplay - that is otherwise a common and most annoying mistake in CRPGs in my view.

[Lady Dragonfly]

The Grand Masters "perfect" humans were mutations who can handle themselves (so to speak) in the apocalyptic iceage which was prophesied. It was why he stole the mutagens in chapter one, and it is why you fight so many mutants near the end.

Yes, I understand that part; but I assumed the varius pink-colored mutants were the result of failed experiments. I thought the goal of the Bigger Brothers Project (or whatever Siegfried called it) was to create a super-hardy variety of humans/humanoids, not a super-hardy variety of monsters? Come to think of it, the whole ending could be much creepier if Geralt encountered the “perfect mutants” able to communicate. Unfortunately, the end-game mutants are portrayed as regular, run-of-the-mill mute monsters, no better than zombies, so you just slaughter them without a second thought or regret (and even collect alchemical ingredients). That is an easy choice – killing unwitting monsters, as opposed to killing intelligent creatures, "perfect humans" (similar to "non-humans" and witchers). A pity, that might've been awesome, to make that difficult final choice. Remember the talking ghoul in that basement? I spared him though I could kill him. I was given a choice.

Since it was just about killing monsters, the whole “witcher secrets” theft and "mutant creation" aspect of the main plot left me unimpressed.

As for the time travel bits, then it is a classic grandfather type paradox. Or more down to earth - a chicken and egg type situation.
One could speculate that because of The Witcher and training from Triss/Shani (depending on route), Alvin survived to "teleport" back into time to become the Grandmaster. This would mean that if he did not replicate the events, he would not have been pushed back into time, and he would not have been the grandmaster, and .... well, you get the drift.

Yes, but why did Azar Javed want to kill Alvin? Can you explain that? Did he know who really Alvin was? How? If he did know that, he must have known that killing Alvin would undo the Grand Master. Why would Javed want to undo GrMr, his close ally? I don't think it makes any sense. There was absolutely no indication that Javed intended to eliminate any of his associates, whoever that might be, unless I grossly missed something. Besides, what would Javed win by killing Alvin? The only explanation is that Javed knew who Alvin was and just pretended they were going to capture and kill Alvin, so he would teleport back in time (replicating events). That means GrMr trusted Javed implicitly, because he literally placed his life in Javed's hands, which was imprudent on GrMr part. I wouldn’t trust the likes of Azar Javed with my pocket change, let alone my life.

Another puzzle: Geralt was killed by the angry mob, but his body was never found. Who resurrected Geralt and why? The Wild Hunt ghost? What was the “reason” the Lady of the Lake referred to? Was he chosen to fulfill the Prophecy? (see The Short Guide, Part One... ) Or his own Destiny? Btw, I chose not to believe in destiny, but here it is – time travel, the prophesied Ice Age, and whatnot. The free will concept bit the dust.

Where I'm very happy with the ending is that the "end boss" were not impervious and invulnerable to all the abilities you had used in the game and have trained up throughout the hours of gameplay - that is otherwise a common and most annoying mistake in CRPGs in my view.

The GrMr was kinda wimpy. And so was Javed; I expected more from the Fire Mage. He was casting flames in the swamp when he was allegedly “weakened” by water, but forgot to do so in his own laboratory. GrMr surrounded himself with the fire creatures but Javed the Fire Mage failed to produce his fire magic. Actually, I was happy – I hate the super-hard and super-immune bosses too.

[Xandax]

<snip>
Yes, but why did Azar Javed want to kill Alvin? Can you explain that? Did he know who really Alvin was? How? If he did know that, he must have known that killing Alvin would undo the Grand Master. Why would Javed want to undo GrMr, his close ally? I don't think it makes any sense. There was absolutely no indication that Javed intended to eliminate any of his associates, whoever that might be, unless I grossly missed something. Besides, what would Javed win by killing Alvin? The only explanation is that Javed knew who Alvin was and just pretended they were going to capture and kill Alvin, so he would teleport back in time (replicating events). That means GrMr trusted Javed implicitly, because he literally placed his life in Javed's hands, which was imprudent on GrMr part. I wouldn’t trust the likes of Azar Javed with my pocket change, let alone my life. <snip>

Indeed it is the variation of the paradox I mentioned.

By "striving" after Alvin's life, it resulted in Alvin being taken in by Garalt and Triss/Shani and thus would end up "teleporting" around. If he did not strive for his life, Alvin would have not been kicked around in time and could not have become the Grandmaster. The Grandmaster also knew that Alvin would survive, because - well, otherwise he wouldn't be the Grandmaster etc.
Javed was just a tool by the Grandmaster in his ploy to perfect humanity (or create run-of-the-mill mutants as it were ) and to seize power, and thus he used him to set the events in motion which would recreate Alvin as the Grandmaster.

However the lacking pieces of the puzzles is what actually happened to Alvin - did he travel far into the future to see the "apocalypse" and then back again to become the Grandmaster. Could he do this on will alone, or accidents or .....
There are many unknown pieces of the puzzle, but basically the above is what I'd deduct out of the story and the information given via dialogues, but without knowing what the devs say about the story.
At least that's my story and I'm sticking to it until I hear something else

Confusing indeed, but that is the "nature" of time travel and those time-paradoxes, all of which hold no solution with our understanding of time and events.

<snip>
Another puzzle: Geralt was killed by the angry mob, but his body was never found. Who resurrected Geralt and why? The Wild Hunt ghost? What was the “reason” the Lady of the Lake referred to? Was he chosen to fulfill the Prophecy? (see The Short Guide, Part One... ) Or his own Destiny? Btw, I chose not to believe in destiny, but here it is – time travel, the prophesied Ice Age, and whatnot. The free will concept bit the dust.
<snip>

Well - the death of Geralt and Wild Hunt etc puzzles me as well, but I think it has to do with the novels prior to the game, and then the amnesia is just a tool to explain why a very experienced and powerful Witcher starts at level 1.
They couldn't very well start a RPG with Garalt being more powerful then most monsters.
So I think it is more game play then game story related to be honest

<snip>
The GrMr was kinda wimpy. And so was Javed; <snip> Actually, I was happy – I hate the super-hard and super-immune bosses too.

Indeed. It was some of the "minor" bosses, I had most problems batteling and not the actual bosses. But I like that.

[Lady Dragonfly]

By "striving" after Alvin's life, it resulted in Alvin being taken in by Garalt and Triss/Shani and thus would end up "teleporting" around. If he did not strive for his life, Alvin would have not been kicked around in time and could not have become the Grandmaster. The Grandmaster also knew that Alvin would survive, because - well, otherwise he wouldn't be the Grandmaster etc.
Javed was just a tool by the Grandmaster in his ploy to perfect humanity (or create run-of-the-mill mutants as it were ) and to seize power, and thus he used him to set the events in motion which would recreate Alvin as the Grandmaster.

I disagree that Alvin was unkillable. In the epilogue, Triss told Geralt that he should be very careful because if he is killed in the Ice Age "future", that is for real. That means, by analogy, the GrMr was gambling with his own existence. If Geralt was killed in the future, he was dead in the present. That is what exactly happened to the GrMr himself: he was killed in the future, and his dead body was found in the cloister.

However the lacking pieces of the puzzles is what actually happened to Alvin - did he travel far into the future to see the "apocalypse" and then back again to become the Grandmaster. Could he do this on will alone, or accidents or .....

Yes, he did. Remember the "illusion" of Alvin on that icy path? That was not an illusion at all: that was Alvin teleporting into the future. I vaguely recall Alvin telling Geralt something about his bad dreams. I would imagine that "nightmare" was about that particular encounter.

Well - the death of Geralt and Wild Hunt etc puzzles me as well, but I think it has to do with the novels prior to the game, and then the amnesia is just a tool to explain why a very experienced and powerful Witcher starts at level 1.

Yes, amnesia is a common condition in RPG. I wonder, if The Witcher 2 is to be expected, how would Geralt start at level 1 again? And what would be the cause of his degradation/debilitation next time around? A crippling STD? AIDS? With his lifestyle... well...
I think an expansion is more likely.

Anyway, I will probably replay this game (right after I finish playing Eschalon: Book 1 and finish MoB, and maybe give NWN2 a second chance) and I will try to pay more attention.

I wish the devs come out of the closet and explain what is going on with all this time/space travel.

[Xandax]

I disagree that Alvin was unkillable. In the epilogue, Triss told Geralt that he should be very careful because if he is killed in the Ice Age "future", that is for real. That means, by analogy, the GrMr was gambling with his own existence. If Geralt was killed in the future, he was dead in the present. That is what exactly happened to the GrMr himself: he was killed in the future, and his dead body was found in the cloister.
<snip>

The epilogue was not actually the future though, but some sort of illusionary scenario.
And if Alvin died somewhere along the line, there'd be no Grandmaster as he is the product of Alvin, and thus there'd be nobody there to steal the mutagens, and thus there'd be no one to kill Alvin, and thus the Grandmaster would exists anyway and the mutagens would be stolen and .....
The Grandfather paradox

[Lady Dragonfly]

The epilogue was not actually the future though, but some sort of illusionary scenario.
And if Alvin died somewhere along the line, there'd be no Grandmaster as he is the product of Alvin, and thus there'd be nobody there to steal the mutagens, and thus there'd be no one to kill Alvin, and thus the Grandmaster would exists anyway and the mutagens would be stolen and .....
The Grandfather paradox

Alvin and the GrandMaster existed side by side, in the present. That is more than the grandfather paradox, because this is the same person. Yes, if Alvin is killed, the grandmaster could not exist, you are right. Everything is written, everything is predetermined, there is no free will, only destiny and fate etc. etc. Well, that means nobody is really responsible for the non-human pogroms or the climate change. And there is no real choice.

Who existed first (chicken or egg)? Maybe Alvin was born in the past, teleported into the present for a few years (a future for him), then back into the past and kept living there until he became the GrandMaster? Maybe he was born in the present, then teleported into the future for a brief moment, then teleported back into the present, then into the past. He stayed in the past and became the GrandMaster. Btw, I take offense that after I tried so hard to teach him all good things, and gave him an opportunity to share quarters with that beautiful, wearing a barely-there dress red-head, he took his vow of celibacy...

[Xandax]

Alvin and the GrandMaster existed side by side, in the present. That is more than the grandfather paradox, because this is the same person.
<snip>

Well, the paradox generally only is there to illustrate the abstract issues with "time-travel", its literal aspect - "grandfather" - is basically not important.

Yes, if Alvin is killed, the grandmaster could not exist, you are right. Everything is written, everything is predetermined, there is no free will, only destiny and fate etc. etc. Well, that means nobody is really responsible for the non-human pogroms or the climate change. And there is no real choice.
<snip>

I wouldn't go that far, simply because even though you in the game couldn't change the history, it says nothing about changing the future or changing current events. By slaying the Grandmaster, one might have changed the future because those events could have been set in motion by the "perfect humans" the Grandmaster tried to invent or other elements.
But that is all academic anyways, all we have to deduct from is the game itself, and the game indicates is that the Grandmaster and Alvin are the same

<snip>and gave him an opportunity to share quarters with that beautiful, wearing a barely-there dress red-head, he took his vow of celibacy...

Perhaps he was just rebelling

[Lady Dragonfly]

Well, the paradox generally only is there to illustrate the abstract issues with "time-travel", its literal aspect - "grandfather" - is basically not important.

It depends on how a game or a movie or a novel would choose to tackle the time-travel, a common sci-fi theme. The classical Grandfather paradox denies that anything can be changed in the past, because the present is already written in a certain way. By the same token, if you are able to travel into the future, it means the future is already written in a certain way and whatever you do in the present is not going to change it, because your actions are predetermined and your free will is illusory (hard determinism in all its glory). In other words, time-travel (and a prophecy/foretelling) is possible only in the deterministic system where the original hard copy of the past, present and future is already filed and secured by some higher-ups. However, one of my favorite movies, Back to the Future, handles the issue quite differently. I can also refer to the movie Timecop. Both Isaak Asimov and Ray Bradbury used time-travel to alter history in their novels as well. Their approach defies the Grandfather paradox entirely. You actions in the past can radically change the present: when you return, you encounter a different world.

I wouldn't go that far, simply because even though you in the game couldn't change the history, it says nothing about changing the future or changing current events. By slaying the Grandmaster, one might have changed the future because those events could have been set in motion by the "perfect humans" the Grandmaster tried to invent or other elements.
But that is all academic anyways, all we have to deduct from is the game itself, and the game indicates is that the Grandmaster and Alvin are the same

If we assume that Alvin is unkillable due to the grandfather paradox logic, we accept the hard deterministic view. That means whatever happens in Temeria is predetermined. Therefore, the slaying of the GrandMaster is predetermined. Geralt is just fulfilling his "destiny", even if he does not believe in destiny. The Ice Age is predetermined. It was foretold, actually.

I agree that The Witcher does not give us any definite answers, only a few hints. A coherent explanation might not even exist, as far as we know.

[Foss]

I finished the game, and honestly didn't see much indication that Alvin and the GM would be the same.
Yes, they had the same abilities, some inate magic and both wore one of those special anti magic amulets.
But other than that, I never connected those 2. And still don't to be honest.
Not unless I see other proofs.
I heard some mentioned that the GM used some of the same words and sayings as Alvin had done, but I never really saw that.

So, did I miss something?

[Lady Dragonfly]

I finished the game, and honestly didn't see much indication that Alvin and the GM would be the same.
Yes, they had the same abilities, some inate magic and both wore one of those special anti magic amulets.
But other than that, I never connected those 2. And still don't to be honest.
Not unless I see other proofs.
I heard some mentioned that the GM used some of the same words and sayings as Alvin had done, but I never really saw that.

So, did I miss something?

I don't know anything about repeated words (honestly, I did not pay close attention to all those lame dialogues), but if Alvin is not GM, what is his role then?

I remember the little rascal was playing a nice game called "kill non-humans" or something, and later he wanted to become a "witcher-knight".

It was mentioned that Geralt knew GM by a different name, and also, "...Jacques de Adelsberg, if that is his real name" etc. Nobody questioned any other character's real name. Why would anybody question the noble name of the Grand Master of the Order of Flaming Rose, unless this is an important piece of the puzzle?

The amulet itself is a pretty strong hint. There is seemingly no other explanation for the presence of two identical amulets in the game. The amulets did not really prevent anything, did not block any magic (kind of useless), yet our attention was drawn to the fact that both Alvin and later GM were wearing these amulets.

It is still unclear why Azar Javed wanted Alvin (who was "a Source", and could not control his magical energy, according to the journal) delivered to his laboratory. Did they want to give him some "mutagens"? Professor's letter indicates that he, and probably Javed too, had no idea about Alvin/GM connection. Who knows, maybe devs themselves had no idea.

[Foss]

I agree that it seems strange that you don't hear about Alvin in the end cutscene. But then again, you don't hear about many other things. It doesn't answer many questions.

About the amulet, I just assumed it was common for people with the source to wear those. Though if the amulet is "handcrafted" and that no 2 amulets really look alike, then its a clue, since he sais it looks identical to the one he gave Alvin, only that it looks more worn.

Though, as far as I remember, isen't Alvin blond and the GM black haired?

Plus, all that travel in time, not sure how it would work. Plus, why would he want to be Alvin if he can remain being the GM.

I agree, that there are some things that point to those to be the same, and its probably right. I would just wish there would be some more proof. Much of it seems to hypothetically(sp) for my taste .

[Xandax]

There is no doubt for me that Alvin and the GM is one and the same person - because the amulet alone is a dead give away.

Remember this isn't a movie where suddenly things pop into view and angles which weren't intended.
The amulet scene in the end was designed, thought out and modeled - it was created with a purpose.

As for physical appearance, then that changes over the years - childhood hair colour does not always (rarely) match adult and all such things. But the amulet alone is a pretty strong indicator.

However the finer mechanics of timetravel and "destiny" etc (just because the past is "set" doesn't mean the future is etc) might not have been worked out by the devs, so whether our speculations are correct or not in the finer detail is - well uncertain.
But Alvin is the GM and vice versa, until I hear otherwise, cause there is just to much pointing at that.

[Foss]

Yeah, you are probably right.
That amulet does seem strange and his remarks aswell that it looks identical to the one you give Alvin, just more worn. A good hint that they are the same.

[Varlon]

Also, remember that line of dialogue when Geralt first met the GM (hehe) in the swanp in Chapter five. GM told him that he Geralt didn't owe him anything and that he laughed at Geralt's philosophy (kind of weird if they didn't know each other at some point). And yes, GM repeats the phrases that you told him in chapter 4.

As to why salamanders were looking for Alvin, I don't think they wanted to kill him and not necessarily Javed knew who he was. Either the GM wanted to somehow double his power by influencing Alvin or Javed wanted to experiment with him, whoever was the initiator of the search. Although, the GM should have know that Alvin was there at the time.

As for how Geralt returned to life, that's the biggest mystery.

(BOOK SPOILER)
In the book he gets killed by the angry mob and then transported to another dimension. He is wounded, but he is alive. Sapkowsky himself said that Geralt didn't die at the end. Although how he got back to his world and for what reason that's the biggest mystery because he couldn't do that on his own.
(END BOOK SPOILER)

It's interesting though that the Wild Hunt king told Geralt when first met in Act I that Geralt is his greatest tool or something like this. May be Geralt's actions would cause the beginning of the new Ice Age.

And one more interesting thing that I noticed. In chapter 4 the hermit tells of 5 graves, occupied by the knights of the lady of the lake. Although he said that the last one is empty and awaits the future knight. Soon after that Geralt is knighted...looks like a newly dug grave for him, right after he got resurrected. Although this time he won't be a novice when he dies...again hehe.

[Asharan]

So then riddle me this ...

Who was the assassin in the final cut scene? So random witcher? A plot for the Witcher II?

I think Geralt may not be the Witcher in a second one, they could have you be one of the other guys that split up at the beginning (?). Anyway, who was that Ninja? Are we supposed to recognize him?

[Lady Dragonfly]

Who was the assassin in the final cut scene? So random witcher? A plot for the Witcher II?

I think Geralt may not be the Witcher in a second one, they could have you be one of the other guys that split up at the beginning (?). Anyway, who was that Ninja? Are we supposed to recognize him?

He looks like a witcher or at least a mutant (yellow eyes) but not like any of the witchers we have met before: the assassin wielded daggers while all Geralt's buddies were swordsmen. It is also puzzling why a professional monster-killer would act like a hit-man.

This is either a promise of a new adventure (an expansion) or nothing. Maybe the devs added this mysterious cutscene to stir up some excitement and send eager fans on a wild goose chase. And now they just sit back, drink Local Pepper Vodka (Pertzovka? ), read our posts and laugh their mutated tails off.

[jpbroadwater]

Very disappointed by The Witcher

I'm very disappointed by the ending of The Witcher. I was looking forward to an Oblivion-style ending of freedom to wander around and fight randomly and gather more money and items. I also hadn't bothered to pick up the best armour in the game (from the quest in Ch.5) or the best sword in the game (from delivering all 10 trophies)... so imagine how annoyed I was that after the epilogue the game just ends like a movie and dumps you back right to the beginning! It makes all the work you've put into your character meaningless. If I ever play this game again I will just ignore the last main quest and just play for fun, because the ending makes everything pointless.

[swcarter]

I'm very disappointed by the ending of The Witcher. I was looking forward to an Oblivion-style ending of freedom to wander around and fight randomly and gather more money and items.

I agree. I really wanted to go back and kill some more drowners.

SWC

[Lady Dragonfly]

The Thrill of the Hunt

I agree. I really wanted to go back and kill some more drowners.

SWC

lol, I suppose the unlimited regeneration of the swamp... wildlife (I hesitate to call it fauna) along with other local recreational activities (what was that dryad's name?) can be irresistable for the true sportsmen. Too bad witchers don't use guns (shotguns could be fun against those exploding bloedzuigers ).

We can probably keep wading through the swamp clockwise hunting our undead game until we reach level XXX or die horribly... from boredom, whatever comes first.

Anybody tried?