Info Needed: Bioware NPC Character Errors?

chaosjinni · Post by **chaosjinni** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:02 pm

Does anyone know of an old thread or link to a full list of what's wrong/illegal with the Bioware NPC's?

I'm referring to such things as Anomen's dual-classed to a cleric with insufficient WIS and others I've run across while dusting off some old threads in GB.

Dummy · Post by **Dummy** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:58 am

i dont know the 3rd gen of d&d, but bg is still 2nd gen game and there you just need wisdom 9 is its sufficient

Silvanerian · Post by **Silvanerian** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:48 am

Cannot remember any list being made, however several threads on how Minsc or Anomen are 'illegal' have been made.
I assume you have already used the search function.

On the top of my head I can think of four in BG2:

- Minsc (WIS stats too low to be a ranger + illegal rage ability)
- Anomen (WIS too low to dual to a cleric)
- Haer'dalis
a. 2 points in short sword, which is not allowed for a blade
b. Tiefling race, which is not a possibility to choose. (he gains 15% damage resistance + 25% resistance to fire + 50% resistance to cold)
- Viconia
a. Drow race not available to PC.
b. The 65% magic resistance is nerfed, as drow should have 50% start + 2% extra per level. Assume this was done because the developers did not want to spend the time necessary to implement correct drow MR.
c. Viconia does not have innate drow abilities (check out the Solaufein mod for details) On the other hand, the other drow in BG2 do not have these abilities either..

The race thing (HD and Vic) can be argumented whether it should be part of the list, as just because the PC cannot be either, it does not mean the races do not exist.

The true 'illegals' of BG2, however, are found in the CRE files. Immunity to Timestop, backstab etc? Give me a break..
So many things got nerfed though. I.e. the enchantment of armour should encompass the same plusses to certain saves etc as well as just the AC. Everyone also speaks of how godly arcane casters are. In PnP they needed to rest 1h per spell level per spell to study/rest in order to rememorize spells if I recall correctly. Would be a different view on mages if they had to exclude themselves for a week or so in order to refill their spell book, no? Not talking about the racial restrictions on maximum level which could be obtained for each class..

chaosjinni · Post by **chaosjinni** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:39 am

Thanks Silva. Ya, I used search but I couldn't find a list per se... just tidbits here and there similar to what you've described. Thanks again.

Lark · Post by **Lark** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:21 am

Aerie: CHARNAME has to be a Halfelf in order to be able to pick Cleric/Mage as class.
Viconia: In addition to that, what Silvanerian wrote, Viconia can cast Holy Smite, despite being an evil Cleric.
Jaheira: Has access to an extra spell: Harpers Call.
Mazzy: Special abilities. The game suggests that she is a Trueblade of Arvoreen, so I assume they should represent the abilities of a special kit, but this kit isn't pickable by anyone else.
Anomen: In addition to what Silvanerian wrote, (spoiler)Anomen doesn't lose his evil spells when his alignment changes to lawful/good.(/spoiler)
Imoen: has too few points in her rogue skills.
Edwin: Undroppable, overpowered necklace, that grants him two extra spells per spell level. This should probably represent his special training as a red wizard, but without the corresponding disadvantages (extra forbidden spell schools).
ToB NPC: (spoiler)Sarevok: Deathbringer assault: Special ability, that sometimes deals an extra 200 piercing damage in melee. Paralyzing Gaze: His hits in melee sometimes stun the opponent.(/spoiler)

Lark

CFM · Post by **CFM** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:38 am

Summary: NPC's that break the AD&D Second Edition rules

Please allow me to summarize Silvanerian's and Lark's previous posts, and add to them.

The following is, of course... *** SPOILERS! ***

Aerie:
-She is an Avariel Elven Mage/Cleric, which is only an available class when creating a character that is a Half-Elf.

Anomen Delryn:
-To dual to a Cleric, a character needs a 17 Wisdom. He has a 12 Wisdom.
-He can still access "evil" spells when he becomes LG.
-A level 8/7 dual-classed Cleric/Fighter could have accumulated ten weapon proficiency points. He has six. (This is technically not illegal. If he picked Mace as a Fighter, and then picked Mace again as a Cleric, then he would be ‘shorted’ a proficiency point. It’s an unwise, but possible, selection.)

Edwin Odesseiron:
-His controversial, (too-) much-discussed, infamous necklace.

Haer’Dalis:
-Bards cannot have more than one point allocated to any one weapon proficiency. He has two in Short Swords. (Not sure if the Blade kit officially/unofficially changes this restriction.)
-He is a Teifling (which provides several innate resistances), which is not an available race when creating a character.

Imoen:
-Originally, she was a level 6 dual-classed thief. Later, she was changed to a level 7 dual-classed thief. But her thieving skills were not updated, so she is short 25 skill percentage points. (There is a Baldurdash fix for this, btw.)
-A level 8/7 dual-classed Mage/Thief could have accumulated five weapon proficiency points. She has four. (This is technically not illegal. If she picked Dart as a Thief, and then picked Dart again as a Mage, then she would be ‘shorted’ a proficiency point. It’s an unwise, but possible, selection.)

Jaheira:
-Only she can cast Harper’s Call.

Jan Jansen:
-His Create Flasher Master Bruiser Mates special ability is not normally available to, um, anyone.
-His avatar's colors are unique, too.

Mazzy Fenton:
-Her Trueblade of Arvorneen special abilities are not normally available to Fighters.
-If she joins your party when the protagonist is level 9 or above, then she has one too many weapon proficiency points for her level.

Minsc:
-Rangers require a 14 Wisdom or higher. He has a 6 Wisdom.
-Rangers don’t normally have the Rage special ability. (Or a miniature giant space hamster.)

Nalia de'Arnise:
-A level 9/4 dual-classed Mage/Thief could have accumulated five weapon proficiency points. She has four. (This is technically not illegal. If she picked Dart as a Thief, and then picked Dart again as a Mage, then she would be ‘shorted’ a proficiency point. It’s an unwise, but possible, selection.)
-Her paper-doll avatar is illegal for her class.

Sarevok:
-His Deathbringer Assault and Paralyzing Gaze special abilities are not normally available to Fighters.

Valygar Corthala:
-Rangers require a 14 Wisdom or higher. He has an 11 Wisdom. (Not sure if the Stalker kit officially/unofficially changes this requirement.)

Viconia deVir:
-She is a Drow Elf, which is not an available race when creating a character.
-Drow Elves should have 50% Magic Resistance, plus 2% per level. Hers is set at 65%.
-In fact, the differences between Drow in AD&D and BG2 are many. And if they are away from the Underdark for too long, then Drow special abilities are supposed to evaporate.
-A Level 8 Cleric should have four weapon proficiency points. She has three.
-She can cast Holy Smite, in spite of being an evil Cleric.

Cheaters, man!

CFM · Post by **CFM** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:22 pm

Dummy wrote:i dont know the 3rd gen of d&d, but bg is still 2nd gen game and there you just need wisdom 9 is its sufficient

Not when dualling, Dummy.

chaosjinni · Post by **chaosjinni** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:55 pm

Thanks and Kudos, Lark and CFM.

Dummy · Post by **Dummy** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:39 pm

well okay, i dont usually dual on pnp but

what illegal to have an tiefling or drow race as npc, they are just people you meet during the journey, plus if you have a race bonus ( +2 on shortswords) this overwrites class restrictions

and still all this character spezific abilitis Sarevok mazzy etc, they maybe learned them in the past due a special training you could not receive this is not illigeal in terms of the d&d rules, you will often encoutner special abilitys/spells what ever which are not listed in the players/dungeon masters handbook

for example, there is an lizard man / paladin in one adventure from greyhawk
but just humans could get paladins usually

Silvanerian · Post by **Silvanerian** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:03 pm

@Dummy:

While we agree that many of the NPCs special skills/abilities can be "explained" and were most likely added to give each of them a bit more flavour/personality (except for the direct mishaps CFM pointed out), believe chaosjinni asked for illegal NPCs. I interpret that as 'straying from the norm'. Believe we got most of them summed up.

CFM · Post by **CFM** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:14 pm

Dummy wrote:what illegal to have an tiefling or drow race as npc, they are just people you meet during the journey, plus if you have a race bonus ( +2 on shortswords) this overwrites class restrictions

and still all this character spezific abilitis Sarevok mazzy etc, they maybe learned them in the past due a special training you could not receive this is not illigeal in terms of the d&d rules, you will often encoutner special abilitys/spells what ever which are not listed in the players/dungeon masters handbook

for example, there is an lizard man / paladin in one adventure from greyhawk
but just humans could get paladins usually

Absolutely, I think the unique backgrounds of the joinable characters are what make them special. And their special abilities compliment their unique backgrounds, making them stand out from the crown even more. As Silvanerian said, it adds flavor and personality to the game. I am all for it. (I referred to them as “cheaters” in jest. They are, after all, our teammates.)

With that said, chaosjinni’s request was for “a full list of what’s wrong/illegal with the Bioware NPCs”...

(Maybe “illegal” isn’t the appropriate word: I took his request to mean “a full list of the attributes of the Bioware NPCs that the protagonist, using standard AD&D rules, can never obtain.”)

...ask, and thou shall receive.

chaosjinni · Post by **chaosjinni** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:31 am

Good work.

So the remaining NPC's are Keldorn, Nalia, Cernd, Yoshimo, and Korgan.

They are legitimate, created in accordance with 2nd Ed. AD&D rules?

CFM · Post by **CFM** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:12 am

Nalia has the same issue with weapon proficiencies that Imoen has. She only has four weapon proficiencies, but she could "legally" have a maximum of five. (I've updated the previous 'summary' post, earlier in this thread.)

I don't think the other NPCs possess anything that the protagonist can't attain, either through character creation, or upon level advancement. I'm not familiar with pnp AD&D class kits, so I don't know how "legally" they are implemented into BG2. But the other NPCs seem to follow suit with what's available to the protagonist, if he/she was an Inquisitor, Shapeshifter, Bounty Hunter, etc. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong.)

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:28 am

Silvanerian wrote: - Viconia
a. Drow race not available to PC.
b. The 65% magic resistance is nerfed, as drow should have 50% start + 2% extra per level. Assume this was done because the developers did not want to spend the time necessary to implement correct drow MR.
c. Viconia does not have innate drow abilities (check out the Solaufein mod for details) On the other hand, the other drow in BG2 do not have these abilities either..

Actually, Drow are supposed to lose ALL of their innate abilities if they've been away from the Underdark for too long (days/weeks).

CFM wrote: Jan Jansen:
-Illusionist/Thieves can't normally have a point in the Crossbow weapon proficiency.

Why not? Thieves can, so Illusionist/Thieves can as well. They can't use Heavy Crossbows though.

CFM wrote:I'm not familiar with pnp AD&D class kits, so I don't know how "legally" they are implemented into BG2. But the other NPCs seem to follow suit with what's available to the protagonist, if he/she was an Inquisitor, Shapeshifter, Bounty Hunter, etc. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong.)

The kits are way off in the game. But a lot of things were not implemented correctly.

IIRC, Inquisitors had an INT requirement (12, I think), Bounty Hunters could use poison, all Specialist Mages opposition schools were more restrictive, that "bonus spell" specialists get was required to be of their school, the Archer was an Elf warrior kit (nobody but Elves could take it), I don't think there was a Kensai, there were separate Swashbuckler kits for Fighters as well as Thieves, and there were a lot more kits in the game.

CFM · Post by **CFM** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:14 pm

Thanks Klorox. I'll update the previous 'summary' post, earlier in this thread, based on your corrections.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:21 pm

chaosjinni wrote:So the remaining NPC's are Keldorn, Nalia, Cernd, Yoshimo, and Korgan.

They are legitimate, created in accordance with 2nd Ed. AD&D rules?

I suppose that Nalia conforms to the rules (except for that missing proficiency point). But if you consider what the designers actually wanted her to be, then it's evident that there are certain shortcomings in the rules themselves. Nalia is supposed to be a well-educated girl--let's call her a Mage--but she has learned a few thieving skills while helping the poor. She didn't start out as a Thief and join a Thief guild and then change her mind and become a Mage. In a couple of the dialogues, Yoshimo tries to give her lessons to improve her thieving abilities, which doesn't make any sense if she can't gain any more thieving points, but which makes perfect sense if you look at the game as a story instead of...well, a game. Her peculiar situation just doesn't fit the standard class system.

You don't need to take that to heart; it's just a personal observation.

Lark · Post by **Lark** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:40 pm

Nalia has the mage avatar, while Thief->Mages normally have the thief avatar. This is fitting for Nalia, but still not by the rules.

Jan uses some colours, that are unavailable by anyone else. Moreover, he has a unique ability: He can create Flasher Master Bruiser Mates for his personal crossbow. (His equipment stands out, too, but we don't consider equipment here).

The only NPC that brings neither special equipment nor special abilities with him is Korgan.

Lark

CFM · Post by **CFM** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:23 pm

Forgot about Jan's special ability. Updating the previous 'summary' post, earlier in this thread. Keep them coming people.

Lark · Post by **Lark** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:37 am

Edwin: (spoiler)During his quest Edwin can get a personal bonus to saving throws and lore.(/spoiler)

Lark

Celacena · Post by **Celacena** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:13 am

Sarevok

I have been using him in a N/E party for ToB - it came as a surprise when he obliterated an opponent and " Deathbringer Assault" came up in the text commentary. The fact that he is a 'special' fated individual justifies an individual ability - as with Jaheira - her Harper status justifies the Call addition (and also pretty much guarantees her not being easily replaced by a cleric).

NPCs should be allowed to deviate from expectations - the rules are there for the PC and the game finds it necessary to break those rules for the purposes of gameplay.

Divine Intervention

in PnP it was possible for a player, in particular a cleric, to call upon Divine intervention - it only had a small % chance of success, but I have had situations where it came off - the DM specified the minimum % and then RPd the role of the deity. saying that, the deity of a fierce warrior would react differently to intervene compared to a goddess of Tranquility - the former might make everybody have +5 to hit and double HP whereas the latter might transport everybody to temporary safety.
the WISH spell works a bit like that, but as a mage spell, not logical divine intervention.
the logic was that a cleric of increasing level would be more likely to have the attention of their deity - so whilst any PC could call for aid at a chance of 100-1/2 per level, a cleric might get 100 - 2xlevel. a cleric of above level 10 would be rare in the world as a whole, so a level 10 cleric might get the attention of their deity 20/100, but persuading them to assist might be another roll with a smaller chance - say 10/100. there used to be restrictions on how often a cleric could call for aid - usually once per campaign/game UNLESS the mission was a clerical one.

clerics in BG2 don't seem to have than connection with the spirit of their deity like they can in PnP.