HoF mode from the beginning

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:45 pm

I'm going to give it a try, and I'm brainstorming party ideas now. here's what I've got so far:

Gnome Fighter (GM in Axes for a great AC and using the boomerang axe)

Half-Elf Cleric/Ranger

Half-Elf Fighter/Druid

Elf Fighter/Mage/Thief (basically, I'm using him as an archer who can open locks and disarm traps. Since he'll always be in the back-row, I figured he doesn't really need armor so why not throw some spellcasting ability in there as well?)

Gnome Fighter/Illusionist

Half-Elf Bard

I'm not too sure on where to allocate weapon proficiencies (other than maxing out ranged weapons for all characters ASAP).

I also know that Paladins are usually pointed at as being great for HoF mode, but I think that's because of being able to cast "Prot. from Evil" on themselves so often. I figure a single classed Gnome fighter can wear that gnome/halfling helmet for a better AC bonus, and can also be a more offensive character since he can get GM in a few weapons.

This is still in it's planning stage, so I'd really welcome comments/ideas/criticisms. TIA

ultramarine · Post by **ultramarine** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:49 pm

There is only 1 helm and you already have a gnome F/Ill. IMHO replacing the gnome fighter with a dwarf is much better as dwarf has the best saves.

For weapon prof (assuming 8 *) I'd the following:
Fighter - slings*/mace**/Axes*****
R/C - slings/Staff/Hammer/Flail
F/D - slings/dagger/Sword/Clubs
F/Ill - Bow/sword/Flail/gSword
FMT - Bow/Staff/sword/spear
Bard - Bow/Hberg/shortsword/crossbow
The first 4 guys should get +1 weapons before reaching the vale tomb. They should cover at least a ranged, a blunt and a slash/pierce type.

Hope it helps

Thrasher91604 · Post by **Thrasher91604** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:50 pm

I built a similar party for HoF and insane mode from the beginnning, but had a few questions on your reasons for weapon specializations.

Why are two characters specializing in flails and only one in maces? 2 kinds of weapons, morning stars and maces, fall in the mace category. Magical and quality maces and morning stars have dropped before entering any of the tombs. Nothing like that for flails yet (except in the blacksmith's shop, which I can't afford yet).

You have two characters specializing in staves, and only one in clubs. I've read there's a few +4 clubs around.

Why is you're best fighter specializing in slings? He would do more damage, I would think, if he specialized in bows.

As someone who is playing the game for the first time, I just wanted to understand you're reasoning...

Thanks!

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:43 am

Paladins are great for HoF for a few reasons. The reason I like them so much is their ability to cast spells. They can "specialize" in melee-useful spells. A simple Draw Upon Holy Might, when cast at high level, can give you 25 Str, Dex, and Con for 10 rounds (translates to + 14 dmg from Str). A paladin can also wear the Lathander helm and the Blur Belt (as can any other fighter, if good).

In short, the reason to pick a paladin as tank over a fighter is more options (including healing) and better AC. The reason to pick a fighter over a paladin is offensive melee ability.

The party looks fine. It's got lots of spellcasting ability and warrior power, both of which are needed. Just be careful about how you allocate your spells. I'd recommend giving just a few spells per level to the bard and F/M/T, at least until you start finding duplicates. I've done a HoF from the beginning with 3 arcane casters, and not regretted it one bit.

I'd plan for more weapon proficiencies. You'll likely hit lvl 12 warrior (8 proficiency points) with your 2-class multiclasses during the Severed Hand.

Ultramarine's weapon suggestions are good. I'd start your tank with 2 points each in axe and sling; missile weapons are a key to early survival. Take a point in mace early, then power up axe to 5 points, then add to mace. Your tank should also forget "tanking" for a few maps early on and play moving decoy instead. I'd skip dagger with the F/D and take spear instead so you can attack from a greater melee distance - F/Ds don't have great protection spells so they don't get a great AC. It should focus on damage resistance instead. I might also try to work in a specialization in crossbow somewhere, as you'll want your bard to sing or spell exclusively. I think the Repeating Heavy Crossbow isn't a random drop any more (it was pre-HoW), and it's arguably the best ranged weapon in the game.

Thrasher, those two specializations in flails could just as well be flipped with mace, and I might even recommend it. For the early going, you are correct in that there are more magical maces/morningstars. There's only one really nice flail that I can think of, but a few good maces. There's one really nice club, and a couple decent staves. The bigger reason for using a staff is so that the character wielding it can attack from farther away - there's only so much great defensive equipment around, and you want as many enemies as possible focusing on your "tank", generally the character with the best AC and HP. As for the question about the sling, your character adds its Str bonus to sling damage but not to arrow (bow) damage. A really strong warrior can do more damage with a sling than with a bow. The benefits to using a bow include non-magical bonuses to attack and damage (longbow, composite longbow), and the quality, type, and quantity of ammunition available. Magical arrows are easier to acquire.

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:31 pm

I decided to take the Paladin tank, and keep the rest of the party as is. It's working pretty good (damn is it hard though!).

Sleep doesn't work for me, but the Hold & Charm spells are awesome, and I never used them before!).

ultramarine · Post by **ultramarine** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:19 am

Thrasher91604 wrote:I built a similar party for HoF and insane mode from the beginnning, but had a few questions on your reasons for weapon specializations.

Why are two characters specializing in flails and only one in maces? 2 kinds of weapons, morning stars and maces, fall in the mace category. Magical and quality maces and morning stars have dropped before entering any of the tombs. Nothing like that for flails yet (except in the blacksmith's shop, which I can't afford yet).

You have two characters specializing in staves, and only one in clubs. I've read there's a few +4 clubs around.

Why is you're best fighter specializing in slings? He would do more damage, I would think, if he specialized in bows.

As someone who is playing the game for the first time, I just wanted to understand you're reasoning...

Thanks!

Mace/Flail- Just switch them around. Early access to +1 mace, very late TWD but gets axes in DE. Fighters can get grandmaster in slings.

Club - Druid can call up good +1 & +4 clubs on demand.

Staff - thief can sneak attack with a staff and the enemy will not return attack. C/R gets +1 to apr for staff besides, what other choice for a 2hd weapon?

I'd prefer a paladin anytime for the same reason as stated by Aerich.

A balanced distribution would require everyone taking 1 non random +1 weapon early in the game and cover both crushing & slash/pierce. Just add others later. (And I've taken Aerich's recommendation for f/d)

pal - bow/sword/flail (add g/sword later)
f/i - bow/mace/axe (add sword later)
r/c - sling/staff/hammer (add a mace/flail later)
f/d - sling/club/sword (add spear later)
fmt - bow/staff/dagger (add h/berg later)

Reverse pal & f/ill weapon pp if using fighter instead of paladin.

Thrasher91604 · Post by **Thrasher91604** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:32 pm

Lots of good stuff in this thread.

Not sure why a R/C would get an extra attack with a stave vs just a mace/morning star. Ive' read that as long as he isn't using a shield he gets the extra attack per round no matter what weapon he is using. So a morning star would be better than a staff early in the game. Is that true? Plus there are lots of quality/magical maces/morning stars in drops early on. None for staves so far...

BTW, there are enemies early on that are immune to normal weapons, so it's useful if your characters are proficient with the few enchanted weapons you can find early. Those I've found early are swords, maces, morning stars, halberds, and daggers. Enchanted bows and slings don't count, as it's the ammo that needs to be enchanted. One cheesey way I thought of (but haven't resorted to) to get enchanted arrows is to summon undead - skeleton archers have a few good arrows.

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:22 pm

When playing HoF from the beginning with rookies, it's not really necessary to have many weapon proficiencies that correlate to the magical weapons you find. One or two characters with magical weapons is sufficient. I've always found it necessary to kill with magic, either with magical damage (Spike Growth, for example, isn't stopped by weapon immunity) or by stunning/holding the creature and then attacking it with a magical weapon (with which you need not even be proficient, if the creature is held).

A R/C will get the extra with any melee weapon, as long as it isn't using a shield. The advantage to using a staff over a mace/morning star is that it is a two-handed weapon. When using the one-tank system (loading up one high HP character with the best defensive items), you want all enemies to attack your tank, which you accomplish by always keeping it a few steps in advance of your other characters. Your other characters can attack in melee once the enemies have all targeted the tank. When using a one-handed weapon, the enemy you are attacking often switches its attack to that attacker from the tank. When attacking the same enemy with a two-handed weapon, it won't switch its target.

Thrasher91604 · Post by **Thrasher91604** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:28 pm

That's good to know about the enemy switching tactics!

Yes, I use slowing/holding spells (grease, entangle, web, chromatic orb) and spike growth, as well as call lightning, static charge, and cloudburst. Of course, you need to keep your melee folks out of the fray in these cases. Web has been my favorite so far because of the wide paralyzing effect (except for spiders).

I've found it easier to give my tanks the rings of free movement, and have then do the damage with magical weapons if there aren't too many other enemies.

ultramarine · Post by **ultramarine** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:06 am

Non-Random before the entrance to the vale cave is a dagger, longsword & 1 mace. The rest are random drops.

Only need 2 tanks using +1 weapons. The reason is there are only 2 ring of freedom. I think most will cast web then send their warriors in (on Hof mode).

Druids & clerics can call up clubs & hammers.

For really hard mummies, stun with orbs. After that, it doesn't matter if a guy has 2pp or zero pp. (i think)

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:54 pm

I don't think stunning works on Undead. I'll test it though.

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:58 pm

Stunning certainly does work on undead. You can't Hold them, except with a specialized Hold Undead spell, but you can stun them with Chromatic Orb.

Especially in areas where there are lots of weapon-immune undead, I like to Web up an area and cast multiple Spike Growths. Typically you can get through two such areas before having to rest again, if you save most of your single-target stunners for a second area.

There are some spells I use a lot more on HoF mode than on normal mode. Hold/Charm, Curse/Prayer/Recitation, Spiritual Hammer, etc.

Spiritual Hammer in particular is great. It's essentially a magical ranged weapon, which you can really use up until you can buy +2 sling stones in the Severed Hand.

ultramarine · Post by **ultramarine** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 12:35 am

I thought Spiritual Hammer is treated as +1 from lvl1-6, +2 from lvl6-12, etc.

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:29 am

It is, and tops out at +3 at lvl 13+. However, in HoF from the beginning, it's magical, solving the problem of how to take out undead immune to non-magical weapons. It's also ranged, solving the problem of getting within their melee attacking range.

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:57 pm

When I turn the game back on, I'll definitely start memorizing a few Spiritual Hammers!

sgnewguy · Post by **sgnewguy** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 1:25 am

Getting back to the first question, wouldn't it be easier if the the f/d and/or the c/r be dual classed instead of multi classed? We would get more spells and i think the fighting abilities are about the same if dual at level 7 or 9.

gbeck1 · Post by **gbeck1** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 1:49 pm

sgnewguy wrote:Getting back to the first question, wouldn't it be easier if the the f/d and/or the c/r be dual classed instead of multi classed? We would get more spells and i think the fighting abilities are about the same if dual at level 7 or 9.

With a lvl 1 party in HOF you'll really need all the divine spells you can get from the very beginning

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:21 pm

That, plus the fighting abilities of a level (maximum) 30 Fighter are far better than what any 9th level Fighter can hope for.

kmonster · Post by **kmonster** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:41 pm

Not really. A fighter9/druid(cleric)30 can get +9 HP, +1 thaco, +3 damage and +1/2 extra attack compared to a fighter30/druid(cleric)30 with the primary weapon.

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:52 pm

kmonster wrote:Not really. A fighter9/druid(cleric)30 can get +9 HP, +1 thaco, +3 damage and +1/2 extra attack compared to a fighter30/druid(cleric)30 with the primary weapon.

Are you sure?

A F/D gets Fighter THAC0 up to level 30... how good is the THAC0 of a level 30 Druid? I know GM is good, but does it cover 21 fighter levels? What if you compare a level 13 Fighter> Druid dual class?