Who is going to go out and buy up large on 4th Edition books?
Who is going to go out and buy up large on 4th Edition books?
Yes, I know it is "new and improved" but honestly if you are like me and bought up large on the 3rd Edition books knowing that it was a vast improvement on Advanced Dungeons and Dragons would you start all over again?
Have to admit a wee bit annoying and it is starting to look like I might have to dedicate an entire book case to D&D books....so far having D&D, 2nd Edition D&D, AD&D and a large collection of 3rd (inc. 3.5) edition books...
...lets just say 4th edition better be pretty spectacular....
Have to admit a wee bit annoying and it is starting to look like I might have to dedicate an entire book case to D&D books....so far having D&D, 2nd Edition D&D, AD&D and a large collection of 3rd (inc. 3.5) edition books...
...lets just say 4th edition better be pretty spectacular....
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.
- Siberys
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If they continue to allow an SRD for 4th edition, I MIGHT play it, test it out and see how it goes. But there's no chance in hell I'll buy one, even with the fact that the person who ruined 3.5, Skip Williams, won't be participating in 4th edition production.
So...no, I won't ever buy 4th edition. 3.5 with my own modifications is plenty satisfactory.
So...no, I won't ever buy 4th edition. 3.5 with my own modifications is plenty satisfactory.
Listen up maggots, Mr. Popo's 'bout to teach you the pecking order.
It goes you, the dirt, the worms inside of the dirt, Popo's stool, Kami, then Popo.
~Mr. Popo, Dragonball Z Abridged
It goes you, the dirt, the worms inside of the dirt, Popo's stool, Kami, then Popo.
~Mr. Popo, Dragonball Z Abridged
I'm in the complete opposite boat to siberys I'll buy the books, if what they promise is true. It promises to be fun combat instead of stale and annoying
I've played SAGA, I've played with major houserules in 3.5, and just the fact that SAGA is so fun and fast as opposed to the 3.5 and houserules is pretty much a cincher.
If WotC delivers, it will be a far better game than 3.5 just in terms of accessibility and playability IMHO. However there will eventually be tons of rules, and to that I kind of like D&D Insider that they promise (just to compile all the rules in 1 place.)
And they've said there will be an OGL-version of 4E, though whether they will post an SRD or not is anybodys guess.
I've played SAGA, I've played with major houserules in 3.5, and just the fact that SAGA is so fun and fast as opposed to the 3.5 and houserules is pretty much a cincher.
If WotC delivers, it will be a far better game than 3.5 just in terms of accessibility and playability IMHO. However there will eventually be tons of rules, and to that I kind of like D&D Insider that they promise (just to compile all the rules in 1 place.)
And they've said there will be an OGL-version of 4E, though whether they will post an SRD or not is anybodys guess.
- Rob-hin
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I understand WotC picking up the pase between upgrades as it's good for sales.
However, for most players this new edition it too soon.
It took longer between last editions (excl 3.0 --> 3.5).
However, new players will buy it... perhaps players who retired before will be drawn back top the game.
However, for most players this new edition it too soon.
It took longer between last editions (excl 3.0 --> 3.5).
However, new players will buy it... perhaps players who retired before will be drawn back top the game.
Guinness is good for you.
Gives you strength.
Gives you strength.
On a technical matter, about the rules and such, I think 4.0 will be an immense upgrade to the game, if Saga is any indication.
I am, however, furious about the change in background they're making. Redesigning the Planes and such, that's a load of crap. Where's the continuity?
In the end, we probably will play 4.0 rules, with 3.5 background.
I am, however, furious about the change in background they're making. Redesigning the Planes and such, that's a load of crap. Where's the continuity?
In the end, we probably will play 4.0 rules, with 3.5 background.
- Siberys
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That's the problem though, "on a technical matter" is a bad thing due to D&D being a roleplaying game, not a rollplaying game. Providing newer, simpler, or more complex rules isn't the way to fix D&D, but to add features that enhance roleplaying and not dice playing, such as most everything out of Unearthed Arcana, this would be a major improvement.GawainBS wrote:On a technical matter, about the rules and such, I think 4.0 will be an immense upgrade to the game, if Saga is any indication.
4th edition isn't needed and will never get my approval.
Listen up maggots, Mr. Popo's 'bout to teach you the pecking order.
It goes you, the dirt, the worms inside of the dirt, Popo's stool, Kami, then Popo.
~Mr. Popo, Dragonball Z Abridged
It goes you, the dirt, the worms inside of the dirt, Popo's stool, Kami, then Popo.
~Mr. Popo, Dragonball Z Abridged
To be honest, and this isn't meant as an assault, that's a load of bull. D&D is both a roll and role playing game. I won't say if any of these is better than the other, but if it's a game, so it has rules. That makes the rollplaying as much part of it as the roleplaying. Since it has rules, those rules can limit roleplay, which they will do by their very nature. They impose limits. Thus, any new additions that further clarify or enhance rules, can only serve to enhance the roleplay.Siberys wrote:That's the problem though, "on a technical matter" is a bad thing due to D&D being a roleplaying game, not a rollplaying game.
A rather simplistic example: You want to play a gunman in D&D. That's impossible, since there are no rules for guns. However, if we take the DMG section about Renaissance weapons in to account, you can.
Now, you might argue that a good DM would have no qualm putting in place rules for gun-use. However much I might agree with that, it's a mood point: wether the DM or Wizards (the "über-DM", so to speak.) implements the new rules, you can't deny that new rules have been established.
So, we have two aspects (probably more, but they don't matter now.) to D&D: one about rules, and one about active roleplaying and background setting. (Passive roleplaying, so to speak.) One without the other is pointless. I feel that, based on my experience with Saga, that D&D 3.5 rules can be made much more user-friendly without any loss of roleplaying-value, on the contrary. (For example: By simplifying rules, you might over-simplify and thus take away some depth. On the other hand, if you make rules to complex to simulate too much, you end up with endless rolling, rules-referencing, and discussion.)
However, the roleplay-experience will be kicked in the nuts and thrown out in the dirt, since suddenly, from one day to the next, the entire universe (Greyhawk in the case of the PHB) gets turned upside down! Suddenly, Tanari look differently. There's no more Plane of Water and all of a sudden Erinyes and Succubi are the same thing. No matter that "yesterday" (the previous game session) your Cleric battled a Tanari with human features, named Grank, on the Elemental Plane of Water. Today, that Tanari looks a lot more bestial and you battled him on another place. Luckily, you have Greater Restoration to cast, since your mind would have turned itself inside out by trying to comprehend what's happening.
To Syberis personally: I know you like Eberron as well, do you think they'll mess that cosmology up as well? It would be rather messy of them, don't you think?
I agree GawainBS D&D is a Roleplaying game and Roll playing game.
One thing I do note though is that WotSC with the 4th edition have made a shift towards the "powergamer" side of things more so than the roleplaying side of things.
Battles are going to be more epic, sure, however due to this being the main driver behind the change to the rules I think it will draw a slightly different crowd of people. You will always get the devout follower of the game, such as myself but will also get new gamers come onboard.
Now from the changes that I have seen posted around the place I can tell that they are aiming for more of the Roll playing type of individual....which is fine but it just makes all the current players look at their current 3.0 or 3.5 books and decide as to whether or not they really like the Rollplaying aspect or roleplaying aspect....and my money is on that a lot of the Roleplaying people may jump ship or just ignore 4th edition ever happened....
Its like this really - when you give someone a game that people love and have emmersed themselves in over a quite a large period of time (3.0 & 3.5) and built a great knowledge base and enjoyment (good understanding) for the "familiar" rules, monsters and realms...then....you basically take it all away and say actually those rules were not right and we have made a whole new set of rules that you will have to purchase all over again in book form....well people are going to be forced to make a decision.....and I guess the weigh up WotSC has to make is that is it worth potentially losing the Roleplayers out there only to accomodate for more rollplayers.....is there any gain?
....and by the way I am actually Vidar...my account has gone weird and won't allow me to post anymore for some reason so I had to make another account...
One thing I do note though is that WotSC with the 4th edition have made a shift towards the "powergamer" side of things more so than the roleplaying side of things.
Battles are going to be more epic, sure, however due to this being the main driver behind the change to the rules I think it will draw a slightly different crowd of people. You will always get the devout follower of the game, such as myself but will also get new gamers come onboard.
Now from the changes that I have seen posted around the place I can tell that they are aiming for more of the Roll playing type of individual....which is fine but it just makes all the current players look at their current 3.0 or 3.5 books and decide as to whether or not they really like the Rollplaying aspect or roleplaying aspect....and my money is on that a lot of the Roleplaying people may jump ship or just ignore 4th edition ever happened....
Its like this really - when you give someone a game that people love and have emmersed themselves in over a quite a large period of time (3.0 & 3.5) and built a great knowledge base and enjoyment (good understanding) for the "familiar" rules, monsters and realms...then....you basically take it all away and say actually those rules were not right and we have made a whole new set of rules that you will have to purchase all over again in book form....well people are going to be forced to make a decision.....and I guess the weigh up WotSC has to make is that is it worth potentially losing the Roleplayers out there only to accomodate for more rollplayers.....is there any gain?
....and by the way I am actually Vidar...my account has gone weird and won't allow me to post anymore for some reason so I had to make another account...
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser gate. All those moments will be lost in time like tears in the rain. Time to die.
Roy Batty (from BladeRunner)
Roy Batty (from BladeRunner)
- Siberys
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Well okay, yes, it's a bit of both, but more or less my point is that WoTC seems to be concentrating on technical aspects rather than roleplaying aspects.
I've seen some ungodly great adventures they've written in the past, Temple of Elemental Evil and City of the Spiderqueen are a couple. But lately, because they focus all their work on technical aspects, their newer adventures have become rather shoddy and sub-par.
The Forgotten Forge, Shadows of the Last War, and Whispers of the Vampire's Blade, those three adventures were the best official published adventures, and those were mediocre, maybe mediocre-good.
But meh, 4th edition will either be really good, or damn awful, but most likely it won't be in between.
I've seen some ungodly great adventures they've written in the past, Temple of Elemental Evil and City of the Spiderqueen are a couple. But lately, because they focus all their work on technical aspects, their newer adventures have become rather shoddy and sub-par.
The Forgotten Forge, Shadows of the Last War, and Whispers of the Vampire's Blade, those three adventures were the best official published adventures, and those were mediocre, maybe mediocre-good.
But meh, 4th edition will either be really good, or damn awful, but most likely it won't be in between.
Listen up maggots, Mr. Popo's 'bout to teach you the pecking order.
It goes you, the dirt, the worms inside of the dirt, Popo's stool, Kami, then Popo.
~Mr. Popo, Dragonball Z Abridged
It goes you, the dirt, the worms inside of the dirt, Popo's stool, Kami, then Popo.
~Mr. Popo, Dragonball Z Abridged
What we've seen right now about 4th edition is not much, people have so far also focused on the mechanical aspect of 4E saying its better, because well, it can be quantified. Roleplaying you can't really quantify in the same matter since that doesn't really change between editions, its only the options within said roleplay that changes (skills in 3.x for example, made alot of roleplaying with skills possible, multiclassing too made character development better fit.)
However there are also some very clunky rules (spellcasting the major one.) that I personally would like to see go.
I think 4E will be a good thing. One can always add optional rules in, however one cannot always take rules out of a game system which I'd like to do in 3.x
However there are also some very clunky rules (spellcasting the major one.) that I personally would like to see go.
I think 4E will be a good thing. One can always add optional rules in, however one cannot always take rules out of a game system which I'd like to do in 3.x
Kheros has hit it right on-spot. Roleplaying is something subjective. Rollplaying not. If Wizards wants to appeal to as much people as possible, they have no other choice than to focus on the objective side of things.Kheros wrote:What we've seen right now about 4th edition is not much, people have so far also focused on the mechanical aspect of 4E saying its better, because well, it can be quantified. Roleplaying you can't really quantify in the same matter since that doesn't really change between editions, its only the options within said roleplay that changes (skills in 3.x for example, made alot of roleplaying with skills possible, multiclassing too made character development better fit.)
However there are also some very clunky rules (spellcasting the major one.) that I personally would like to see go.
I think 4E will be a good thing. One can always add optional rules in, however one cannot always take rules out of a game system which I'd like to do in 3.x
I feel that each single lapse in roleplaying-content from Wizards can be made up by the DM and the players.
On a sidenote: I think that the reason many of you believe that Wizards focuses to much on rollplayers, is because they make a lot of powerful/easily abused/broken material. That's undeniable, but it's a sign of incompetence rather than willfull intent. Let me explain: one of the articles on the site was about a playtesting session. Afterwards, one of the developers said that a Druid was a good 5th partymember, but not good as one of the basic four in a group. This only goes to show how limited the very designers' knowledge of the game is. (Everybody worth his salt as a D&D player knows that the Druid is one the most atrociously overpowered classes, especially in Core.)
In conclusion: they simply don't realise what they create.
The one true test for me in 4th Edition is whether or not it actually simplifies the rules or not. If it does not and instead just forces everyone to learn a whole new set of rules (that may be more thorough and balanced) then the DM is going to have to work harder again to get to any aspect of the roleplaying side of things....
A good game to me (when I DM) is when every player is engrossed in the adventure and their characters - any action typically runs smoothly and is exciting with very little disruption due to the simple flow of the rules within the battle not hindering the atmosphere or suspense that has been built up.
Have to admit whenever their has been a new version AD&D from 2nd edition, 3rd edition from AD&D etc there is always a down period where players and DM struggle to get flow within the game due to the constant referencing of the rules and interpretations of them.
So I guess the question really is whether or not people are prepared to re-learn everything all over again.
I probably will, just because I am a D&D/Mythology/Fantasy fanatic but the question will just have to remain with the non-fanatics....are they prepared to put their money down to buy an entire rollplaying game set of rules all over again...
A good game to me (when I DM) is when every player is engrossed in the adventure and their characters - any action typically runs smoothly and is exciting with very little disruption due to the simple flow of the rules within the battle not hindering the atmosphere or suspense that has been built up.
Have to admit whenever their has been a new version AD&D from 2nd edition, 3rd edition from AD&D etc there is always a down period where players and DM struggle to get flow within the game due to the constant referencing of the rules and interpretations of them.
So I guess the question really is whether or not people are prepared to re-learn everything all over again.
I probably will, just because I am a D&D/Mythology/Fantasy fanatic but the question will just have to remain with the non-fanatics....are they prepared to put their money down to buy an entire rollplaying game set of rules all over again...
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser gate. All those moments will be lost in time like tears in the rain. Time to die.
Roy Batty (from BladeRunner)
Roy Batty (from BladeRunner)