HoF Mode from Scratch Gameplay Variety?

[Thrasher91604]

Hi all -

I've made it through the first part of level 1 of Severed Hand, and the battles are starting to get too repetitive and tedious.

99% of them all go the same way - the only interesting ones (spoilers follow)

Spoiler

were the battles with Yxunomei, the race to shut off the Master Summoner, and the surround ambush on the first level on the Severed Hand.

All the others play out the same, with stair/level entrance ambushes providing most of the excitement. What follows is the most expeditious way I've found to survive.

Here's the pattern
- Summon meat shields
- Scout with sneaking ranger with trap detecting thief in tow
- Find enemies
- Return to party and position with summons to prepare for ambush
- Use tank with free movement ring to kite enemies back to party
- Cast lots of entrapping/slowing spells (web, entangle, grease, slow)
- Turn stuck enemies into pincushions with ranged weapons, while
[INDENT] - softening the enemy with damage spells - fireball, vitriolic sphere, spike growth, static charge, cloudburst, skull trap, ice storm, etc.
- recasting entrapping spells as needed plus the occasional chromatic orb, charm, confusion, or hold person for those that get through or are charmable.
- recasting summons as needed
[/INDENT]
- Tanks in front swap to melee weapons for the occasional heavily damaged enemy that makes it through.

A little variety is added to send insect plagues against spellcasters when they present themselves.

I'm just wondering if the tactics will need to change significantly later for a lot of the battles or if most are best handled by this approach....

Thanks!

[Aerich]

If by "best" you mean "with the least risk", then yes, battles are "best" handled in the way you describe.

That doesn't mean that all battles can or have to be handled that way. You have full control over whether you cast different spells or use different tactics. Additionally, there are some fights later on that cannot be handled in this manner, because the enemies are too big, tough, and spell-resistant to be entrapped.

There are a lot of comparatively low-level hordes of monsters, as in the Severed Hand, and you may wish to conserve your spells and approach your fights differently. If you want to challenge yourself, try resting less than once/level.

[Klorox]

I'm doing the same thing (HoF mode), and I'm just curious as to what your party looks like, Thrasher.

[Thrasher91604]

Well you've probably seen my post on "another board". But here it is again, now advanced a bit.

It's the standard powergaming party, tweaked for maximum enjoyment value for me in a single play through - all classes and diverse alignments. In particular, I wanted to play an evil cleric for the first time. Made sense to make him a mage cleric because of the mage buffing spells to keep him safe for touch attacks. His touch attacks have been pretty weak for HoF mode, though. High enemy saving throws and high enemy hitpoints, make him more useful as a summoner, trapper, buffer, holder, and healer. Looking forward to getting the destruction spell (at save -4). He can be used as a good distractor though, running around touching everyone. One could have made him a lawful good cleric / mage (for that buffing spell that has the same alignment benefits with a paladin) or a fighter / mage, instead.

But, right now I use him mainly for sharing buffing duties with the ranger/cleric, sharing trapping spell duties with the druid, ranger, and bard; sharing summoning duty with the ranger/cleric, and druid; and sharing healing (of all things ) with the druid, ranger, and paladin. He not only gets the divine summons, but the arcane ones as well. Divine animate dead summons are a lot cheaper, more available, and last longer

(STR,DEX,CON,INT,WIS,CHA)

Errol Durbin Level 11 LG Human Paladin (18/95,18,18,3,14,17)
Bows ++, Large Swords ++, Flails ++, Axes +

Gerod Wintel Level 10/9 CG Half-Elven MC Cleric/Ranger (18/92,18,18,5,18,5)
Racial Enemy: Cadaverous Undead
70% Move Silently
Slings ++, Hammers ++, Maces ++, Clubs +

Fernid Snivol Level 9/12 CG Gnomish MC Fighter/Thief (18/00,18,18,12,2,12)
80% Open Locks, 75% Move Silently, 95% Find Traps, 0% Pick Pockets
Backstab x4
Bows +++, Small Swords +++, Great Swords +

Jalinda Rahuli Level 9/10 TN Half-Elven MC Fighter/Druid (18/62,18,18,7,18,15)
Slings +++, Large Swords (scimitar) +++, Quarter Staves +

Ravel Mordred Level 10/11 LE Half-Elven MC Cleric/Mage (18,18,17,18,18,3)
Slings +, Maces +, Flails +, Quarter Staves +

Tirra Suleni Level 14 NE Half-Elven Bard (18,18,16,18,3,18)
Crossbows +, Axes +, Halberds +, Maces +, Daggers +
80% Pick Pockets

I'm not completely happy with it. The weapon restrictions of the druid/fighter, cleric/fighter, and cleric/mage make assignments a bit difficult.... But having access to clerical divine spells from 2, and nature divine spells from 2 is VERY useful!!!! That's a lot of undead summons and entangles.

The paladin's specialization in bows is a bit of waste now that I found the returning throwing axe. Bows were useful early though. Should have given him axes to start instead of bows, but then throwing axes would have gotten REAL expensive (not to mention heavy, especially early in HoF mode where you need a hundred tries to kill something).

I want the fighter/thief to have a blunt weapon proficiency, but I also want someone with a great sword proficiency. It was either him or the paladin for the GSW. No other choices. Similar limitations with axes. It's a waste to allocate proficiencies to the Bard since she's staying out of combat all of the time (and isn't very good at it anyway).

Also, I'm wondering if it would be better to have a different character specialize in crossbows other than the Bard, who will be spending most her time spelling and singing rather than plinking....

[ultramarine]

If you want to cover all the weapon proficiency, then drop the c/m and replace with a f/m or f/ill.

2 clerics is not necessary. Its better to dual the ranger to cleric at level7. You gain a lot of cleric spells at the expense of 1/2 apr.

The following should cover all weapons.
pal - slings, sword, flail, g/sword
f/i - cbow, mace, axe, h/berg
f/t - bow, staff, dagger, shortsword
f/d - sling, club, sword, spear
r7c - sling, staff, hammer
bard - bow, cbow, sling,etc.

[Thrasher91604]

Yes, the obvious solution to cover all weapon specializations is to replace the mage/cleric with a mage/fighter. But I'd prefer to play with the evil mage/cleric to see if destruction becomes a useful tactic later on...

In the meantime, I get lots of extra cleric spells = more summons, buffs, condition remedies, healing, etc...

As apposed to another fighter type. Probably not optimal, but may be more fun once destruction becomes available.

I found a great +3 spear last night. I wish I had specialized the fighter-druid in spears, rather than swords. I had to buy the lucky scimitar (expensive!). The druid staff you get in Khuldahar isn't so great as a weapon, per se.

I've noticed that my characters can't try to steal from shops. For example, the blacksmith in Khuldahar would be nice to steal from. Why is that?

BTW, I laid off my pattern in my first post to make it more interesting last night on level 3 of the Severed Hand. I stopped using trapping spells once I crossed over into the area with skeletons, et al. They don't do a "call-to-arms" so for some, I could lure them one at a time into my summons, and plink them safely from a distance.

Also, I noticed that I could sometimes position a sneaking character so he could hit an enemy with ranged attacks, without the enemy noticing / attacking him. Probably a bug?

For the normal weapon immunes, I had my fighters with the enchanted weapons do the damage, using the summons to just distract the enemy. The serrated skel was pretty tough. Just a few hits on one character could kill him. So the tactic I used when a character got hit, was to run away, while the summons and other fighters distracted the enemy so it would focus on someone else. He would then get some healing, before rejoining the fray. Nice change of pace.

[Aerich]

I played an evil cleric/necromancer, once. Dual class from cleric[14]. I ended up playing it as a spellbomber/buffer and didn't use the nasty clerical spells as much as I thought I might. Most of them allow saves, take too long to cast, and are touch spells.

I consider spears and scimitars tied for usefulness for fighter/druids. Either way, your F/D will lag behind other party members in terms of access to good magical weapons.

I'm not sure why you can't steal from shops, since the icon is there. That's just the way it is. By about the mid-game, you can just sell the loot you find for cash, anyway. The guy in the Severed Hand gives the best prices.

I don't know if it's a bug or not, but I've seen it and used it before.

If I were you, I'd give crossbow specialization to the F/T. It doesn't really fit for any other character.

[Thrasher91604]

Did you try destruction spells? They cast in 1 round, and have a save at -4. I figure that I'll prebuff with mirror image and stoneskin to avoid spell disruption. But, if everything has a super high saving throw at that point, then it may still not be feasible. Perhaps debuffing with curse, recitation, prayer, etc.. would help enough to make it worthwhile.

My F/T is the only one specializing in bows, though. So perhaps the ranger/cleric should give up slings and specialize in crossbows? I hate to give up the strength damage bonus given by slings though...

I think I'll change the staff specialization for the F/D to spear for now. I thought a little specialization for a blunt weapon would be more handy, but maybe not.

Similar question for the F/T. Wondering if points spent on a blunt would be better than more points on greatsword.

Maybe swap out the Paladin's bow ++ specialization for axe ++, instead, since he's been using the throwing axe... Should have started and kept him with axes from the beginning. And then use the single + for greatsword, on the Paladin, and the single + on the F/T for a blunt.

[ultramarine]

Why not put clubs on druids? Check out Star Metal Cudgel - best used against undead.

Staff is the only 2h weapon that allows F/T to backstab/sneakattack. That's more fun than greatsword.

[Thrasher91604]

Good idea for clubs on my F/D!

Trouble is, there are so many other great Druid spells, that she rarely enters close combat. She's the killzone damage over time dealer - after an entangle or two, she adds spike stone, one or more spike growths, and a static charge or two if it really looks bad, and then lots of ranged attacks (through a wall of webbed and entangled animated dead or other summons). Other good level 4 spells she uses often are: Static Charge and Giant Insect.

In fact my tanks / front liners only occasionally engage in close range combat, either.

The damage done in HoF mode by enemies is too dangerous, especially in "Call to Arms" areas! Non "Call to Arms" areas are much easier to deal with by kiting one enemy at a time back to the party / summons. It's also ALOT less magic intensive, but takes longer to clear out an area (and can get tedious...). But it's fun for a while

I can go a lot longer between cheesey rests (or healing spells or long waits for a slow Song of Sith regeneration), by keeping everyone out of harm's way.

Regarding backstabbing and sneak attacks. Sadly, they seem pretty worthless in HoF mode. The enemies just have way too many hitpoints for 4x or 3d6 extra damage to make a big difference. It's a novelty that's fun, but really doesn't add much value...

Maybe crippling strike will become useful at higher levels. But, a specialization just so you can sneak attack or backstab with a blunt weapon seems pointless to me (at least for now)...

[Aerich]

I've never been fond of the idea of taking a specialization solely for use with a spell-created weapon.

Even though there's a +5 club in HoW, and a couple of other semi-decent clubs, I think they pale in comparison to other druid-usable weapons. There's a +5 spear (still +5, long melee weapon) and scimitars with excellent specials. There's no shortage of daggers with good specials either (Ol' Withery, Fire Kiss, Lover).