Parenting

[Tricky]

I was thinking about parenting and tuna when something occurred to me. This kinda seemed like the right place to pop the question. So, I will Speak My Mind and wander back into obscurity.

How do you make a child aware of the fact that its behaviour is influenced by advertising and commercialism? And would that usually be enough for it to alter its behaviour, or is that where parenting tends to become holding back their allowance until they stop nagging you about it?

Carbonated drinks, video games, pop music, running shoes, obviously anything goes here.

[fable]

I was thinking about parenting and tuna when something occurred to me.

This is, without question, one of the greatest thread opening lines I have ever seen. I may come back later and comment on the thread content, but for the moment, I'm just too dazzled by the brilliance of this sentence.

[Moonbiter]

Should we spam? I hope not, because this is a really good question.

My son has reached the age when he's being bombarded with input from the other kids in his kindergarten. We have made a conscious effort to keep him away from mass media influences, especially TV. He's allowed to watch "children's television" for an hour or so every day on a non-commercial network, which means there is no commercials and practically no product placement in the programs. That is the way I was brought up, and my wife agrees that this is the way to go. This has led to him being (like me) a bit of an outcast amongst his peers, but until now it hasn't bothered him much and has led to a lot of other parents actually asking us what we do to "make" him the way he is. He is a curious little sprog who likes to be outside in the woods exploring, fishing, walking and playing. He already enjoys to read and being read to, and never has a dull moment as long as he has his toys or paper and crayons at hand. He is also fascinated by music, and has expressed interest in learning how to play the piano.

We were naturally pretty miffed this Christmas when he wrote a letter to Santa wanting a GameBoy and a particular beanie that "all the other kids" are wearing. Further investigation revealed that there is quite a bit of fashion pressure amongst the kids in his kindergarten, with some of the posher parents (particularly moms) dressing their kids up in ridiculously expensive clothing and actually telling them that kids who didn't wear this and that were "different." These are also the kids who spend their days in front of the TV or with a gaming console, usually in the care of a nanny, and tend to gang up on the others and make their lives miserable.

Two months into 2008 and my son has enrolled in a skiing course (slalom/downhill) which he initially really loved, but suddenly doesn't want to go to due to him being ostracized by the "cool kids" because he hasn't got the right gear. I take him to the classes and the heckling starts the moment he sets foot outside the car, with the "posher" parents present not lifting a finger to prevent it. Me and the instructors have had numerous sit-downs with the parents in question (and for some reason it's always the dads present at these meetings, who doesn't have a clue) but it hasn't led to any progress. My son is not alone in this, but that doesn't seem to help.

So what do you do? My son suddenly wants a PlayStation, fashionable kid's clothing and wants to watch TV-series that I didn't even know existed, all in the name of being accepted. I know his pain as I've been there myself, but how do we react to it? Me'n my wife probably make more money than all the "posh" parents put together, I just don't want to make that an issue for my kid and bow to peer pressure. So is my own integrity (and my parents before me) worth the pain and struggle of my son growing up as "different?" He was the first in his group who could read and write. When they're on trips with the kindergarten he can pick out mushrooms that are edible, read and identify the tracks of animals, and can even show the dumbarse teachers how/where to pitch a tent. The same idiot parents who are asking us "how we do it" are the ones creating the problems.

The sprog is not "superboy," and he has his share of faults, but I'll be damned if I know how to ballance the pounding of "the world" with bringing him up as an "aware" and harmonic human being.

[Tricky]

This is, without question, one of the greatest thread opening lines I have ever seen.

Yer after me tuna!

Should we spam? I hope not, because this is a really good question.

Well, you know me.

.... but I'll be damned if I know how to ballance the pounding of "the world" with bringing him up as an "aware" and harmonic human being.

Thank you, that was interesting.

About the poshy kids problem. You went and talked to the parents, but did you talk about it with your child? I know talking to children won't stop the other children from picking on them, but it seems to me that they need to come first in realizing it's all very pointless. 'You may not dress fancy, but at least you're not a phony. And you're going to grow out of those clothes in six months anyway' ~ something along those lines.

If after careful contemplation my hypothetical child sided with me on this, would I feel a bit less restrained to go out and buy a more expensive toy? To be concious of your own behaviour in such a way.. it's something even adults don't always come to understand. I think that kind of behaviour needs to be rewarded, though if possible not with more materialism.

[Magelord648]

This is my opinion as a fifteen year old.

I don't think there is a way. I just worked it out myself. The best way is to make sure the child is around intelligent people and is strong minded enough to resist peer pressure etc.

It's very difficult. Maybe you should just think about Tuna.

EDIT: Just read Moonbiter's post and I strongly agree with what he says. I was just like his kid. First I was none materialistic and then peer pressure caused me to be a bit more controlled by must haves but going into secondary school I questioned the way I live my life. This has lead me to becoming non materialistic and very self efficient. I'd still like to have an Xbox 360 and decent clothes but I know I don't NEED them. Telling the difference between wanting and needing is the most vital part in my opinion. The child must also realise that their parent is there to give them what they need. What they want they must provide themselves. (But there's nothing wrong with treating them as a reward)

[VonDondu]

So what do you do? My son suddenly wants a PlayStation, fashionable kid's clothing and wants to watch TV-series that I didn't even know existed, all in the name of being accepted. I know his pain as I've been there myself, but how do we react to it?

I'm hesitant to offer any advice about parenting, but perhaps I can offer some general advice about things like how to deal with peer pressure and the resultant pain.

First of all, I think you are focusing on the symptoms instead of the underlying problem. That is, you are trying to figure out how to handle your child's desire to acquire material things (a difficult nut to crack) that resulted from the pain of rejection by his peers instead of teaching him how to deal with that kind of pain. I don't know how you're supposed to teach a five-year-old child how to deal with pain, but ultimately, I think that will be the solution to your problem.

Every person needs to learn a few important lessons when they live in this world. Life is full of pain. We need to get used to experiencing pain in our lives. We need to be strong instead of crumbling beneath it. We should try to avoid things that cause us to feel pain. Other people are very hurtful. Caring about what other people think of us can cause no end of misery. We should learn not to care what such people think of us. If we want to be happy, we should try to get involved with people who like us for who we are, not with people who judge us and make us miserable.

I don't think you can expect a five-year-old child to learn all of those things in less than, say, about fifteen, twenty, or thirty years. So you have a lot of teaching to do.

In other words, I don't think you can solve a problem like this quickly; you will need to spend a lot of time with your child as he grows up. You need to teach your child what it means to have fulfilling relationships with other people, and how to build good relationships. One of the most difficult things to learn in life is what we should seek. How do you find the right friends? How do you find the right life partner? Well, first you need to figure out what to look for and what to avoid. That's the kind of advice I think your child needs.

To better illustrate my point, I'd like to mention that eventually you can teach your child about more specific things like sex. (I don't think I need to explain how important sex, sexuality, and sexually-related "messages" will be in your child's future.) Sex is part of adult relationships. Sex does not occur in a vacuum; it takes place inside the context of a relationship. Therefore, you need to discuss that larger context and adult relationships in general if you want any of your advice to make sense. I think you should start talking with your child about relationships as soon as possible. If you have an ongoing dialogue with your child about relationships (I'm talking about year's worth of talks, not just one or two conversations here and there), then it's easier to talk about the finer points of those relationships when the time comes, and any advice you give will be much easier to understand and to relate to the real world. If you try to solve your child's problems with one or two conversations, he will grit his teeth until you are finished talking, and then his thoughts will return to what's going on in his life and he will be just as confused as ever. --That is, unless you have provided a context for him over the years which will enable him to understand, appreciate, and APPLY your advice. I think you should start that conversation very early in your child's life (but of course it's up to you to determine what your child is ready to hear at any given point).

If you can build a great deal of trust between you and your child, perhaps those conversations will go smoothly. I think that's about the best you can possibly do as a parent. The rest is up to your child--he'll just have to learn how to cope with the challenges all people face. If it gives you any comfort, he will probably adapt quite well if you help him. And don't forget: you can't expect too much from a five-year-old--he'll be able to handle life's challenges much better when he's older--so give him a break.

On a personal note, it's really funny--in many ways, my father is a bigoted, judgmental jerk, but nevertheless, he did teach me at an early age to be kind and respectful to people who have certain kinds of disadvantages (such as physical and mental handicaps). Fortunately, I did not imitate his tendency to disparage large groups of people as a whole; I managed to learn how to be kind and respectful to everyone in general, not just to a few special individuals. He told me to be "accepting" of a few people, but here I am now, tolerant of most people in general (which would probably appall him if he knew). I don't think he realized that his advice would have such an effect on me. It just goes to show that you never know what your child will do with the advice you give him.

[Tricky]

"parenting and tuna" - Google Search

Yes! I have contributed something new to the Sea of Information. And it got there so quickly too.

[VonDondu]

Yes! I have contributed something new to the Sea of Information...

Can it really be considered "information"?

[Moonbiter]

Before I hit the sack: I'm sorry for my bollocks English, but I hope I got my message through. @Tricky: still the best question on SYM in ages.

[Tricky]

Can it really be considered "information"?

Information? Oh come on. What isn't there to know about parenting and tuna! I remember this one time when I was eating tuna and thinking about it, and I kinda went like, 'hey, that's some serious business!'. So then I thought, where do I find them parents? I don't know any parents! And then I remembered all the incredibly old people that come here and it just hit me: SYM! And then I made this thread that started out like, "I was thinking about parenting and tuna when something occurred to me. This kinda seemed like the right place to pop the question."

Remember that? Yeah. Good times. Seriously though, I am curious about this. not acamademically mind you, but I think in the unlikely even that I should procreate, I should try to produce the best little grownup I can. Bestly.

[C Elegans]

Both Moonbiter and Vondondu have already posted some good and insightful opinions, which I agree with. Still, I'd like to mention a few essential points we know from the scientific perspective.

The basic questions we are dealing with in this thread, is, as I see it, conformism and "outsider"-ship. If we lived in a society we found morally sound and in a culture with values we found good and adequate, none of this would be a problem. The problem is that a conflict occurs because we dislike a lot of the values in the culture we live in, and we don't want our kids to grow up with Britney Spears as a role model. Commercialism, materialism and surface regulate the values and lifestyle in our society, and if we don't like those values we have to actively resist them.

Very little research have been conducted in the area of how you develop to a happy, sound and strong human being. On the contrary, there is an immense body of scientific literature demonstrating how you become an unhappy person with lots of social and behavioural problems. For example, the factors leading to high risk of being bullied or high risk of becoming a criminal are quite well known, but the factors leading to managing to avoid it are far more obscure.

Three key areas are self-confidence and self-value, basic personality traits and general level of intelligence. A child who has been brought up in a validating and confirming environment where the adults allow it to be as it is and show a variaty of responses to different behaviours from the child, will be more confident and have a better self-esteem than a child who is brought up in an emotionally punishing, invalidating and inconsequent environment. Having a good self-image is crucial in order to avoid bullying, and kids who have a good basic self-esteem can therefore be far more non-conformistic without being socially punished by their peers.
Regarding personality traits, it's been shown in many studies that high anxiety traits predispose for various maladaptive social behaviours including being at higher risk for being bullied in school and lower ability to cope with such things as being non-conformistic.
As for intelligence, a high general intelligence is a protective factor against almost everything. Now, personality traits are genetic to at least 50% and general intelligence is genetic to about 80%, so what we can do as parents may seem limited. However, it is not. Whereas you cannot make a genious out of a child with average intelligence, you can easily do the opposite: make a stupid git out a child that had potential to be really, really clever. Environmental factors like school or parenting can disrupt a person, so it is still of major importance to give a child the opportunity to fulfil its potential.

Whereas today's society bombard kids with all sorts of unhealthy messages and influence them towards conformity, my advice would be not to worry too much. As long as you provide enough validation, confirmation and stimulation, a gifted kid will go relatively unharmed through the conformistic pre-school and school years. Most kids wants to behave conformistic for a certain period of their lives, it's a way to understand the social game and the social structures in the world they live in. If they want a certain piece of clothing or a certain toys just because their friends have it, let them have it once in a while, but also point out the difference between social pressure and genuine will and teach them how to know the difference so they can truly make an informed choice.
Like Vondondu mentions, the most important is to provide children with the tools they need to cope with reality; to cope with frustration, long-term goals, not always having your way, other people being nasty, etc. Teach your kids that they are good and fine as the persons they are, that their ideas, intererests and thoughts are worth something and that life is a stuggle worth struggling for. Teach them critical thinking and the value of knowledge as well as the value of experiencing things. And teach them not to fear the fact that we can't control our lives to such an extent that we perhaps would like to. Then you kids will be fine off and able to realise their dreams and dealing with their problems.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

This one's more for Moonbiter than the Trickster.

Morbid though it is I've always liked 'you can't take it with you when you're dead', but I saw a fair few elderly relatives drop off as a kid and many kids have trouble with death and dying. That said, I was still often a materialistic little brat, albeit nonconformist. Fortunately once I found the joys of the local library and a snoozing dog at my feet that mostly changed, and the vagaries of life saw to the rest.

Another good one is to find a friend who did the whole 'work hard and neglect your family' thing, and who subsequently found out how little the latest phone etc. actually matters (my example is always my father) when their actual human relationships fell apart, and get them to have a chat with your child. Works better if it's someone the child looks up to, like a favourite uncle or something.

[fable]

Should we spam? I hope not, because this is a really good question.

Should we acknowledge a magnificently funny opening? I hope so, because if we can't do that in SYM, we certainly can't anywhere else.

How do you make a child aware of the fact that its behaviour is influenced by advertising and commercialism? And would that usually be enough for it to alter its behaviour, or is that where parenting tends to become holding back their allowance until they stop nagging you about it?

It seems to me that the central problem is one of the vanishing nuclear familial unit in Western society, as some anthropologists refer to it. The family forms the first peer group for every infant/young child, with parents (and siblings, if available) establishing and reinforcing proper behaviors while condemning bad ones. But then the child is cut loose for public school, where a second peer group begins, chosen from friends of one's own age. Teachers may play a part, as well.

Many parents choose to gradually fade out intensive interaction with their offspring at this point. That puts a further burden upon outside influences, and of course, commercial interests are all too willing to pick up the slack, too. Numerous studies exist showing just how easily influenced children are by advertising on television, through movies, books, fast food containers, etc. Without any learned critical apparatus, they are the best targets for emotion-driven advertising campaigns. Some of these same studies that have taken a very long approach show that if you get to the children early on through media drives, you can actually prevent the full development of those skills that minimize emotional impulse as a factor in buying. In other words, start 'em young, and you've got them in the bag. The entire panoply of psychological tools that have been honed through endless testing are then deployed at the child: fear of being defined as an outsider by the peer group, love of being a vetted insider, the idea that you will be happier/better/more secure for owning whatever is being sold, envy of the child who obviously is more loved/admired for having the product, etc. This is social patterning, plain and simple. Start it young, and you've got a very unhealthy habit that is hard to break.

There are many solutions that have been proposed, including an equivalent of Alcoholics Anonymous for binge buyers. But the best one is simply for parents who (one hopes) know the power of commercialism to maintain influential roles as friends, sources of affection, and "village elders" in providing whatever collective wisdom they may possess, both in instruction and through example. Then they can gradually educate their children over time about the world outside the family, and about the importance of maintaining a firm grasp on reality in a consumer world built upon selling every minute of every day.

[Tricky]

Would a very practical metaphor work with young children? Something that shows exploitation on a smaller scale, something they can 'get' by walking around it a couple of times and asking a few questions?

For example - this is just off the top of my hat - , I could take Little Tricky out to a farm where animals are packed into small sheds and mechanically removed of their furs or milk. Or a slaughterhouse if Little Tricky is a little bit thicker than his dad. Little pig goes in, meat product comes out.

Aside from the slaughterhouse bit, would that be a good idea?

[BlueSky]

All I can offer is this:
When my daughter was 4 years old, I quit teaching and became a stay at home dad for the next 6 years of her life, at that time we had no TV....hence she was only influenced by peers at school, once she started school....and thankfully she did not get on the bandwagon of fads and trends...
She is now in her twenties, and as I told a friend of mine...
She is a college grad , holds down a job , going back to school working on her masters degree , she did move back in with me and brought the un-official son-in-law:speech:....she's never been in jail or in trouble....my job is done..

In my opinion, the more time a parent spends with their children, the better job of raising them is accomplished...

EDIT:...."incredibly old people"....now Tricky, I don't think I'm that old.....although I do remember Barry White...LOL

[Tricky]

All I can offer is this:
When my daughter was 4 years old, I quit teaching and became a stay at home dad for the next 6 years of her life, at that time we had no TV.

When I was little my dad had an almost fatal accident resulting in serious spinal trauma. It took him some years to recover to a point where he was able to work again, during which he rarely left the house. We had a TV, but I missed out on many things because money was tight. My dad was always there for me though. Trust me when I say I know what kind of difference that can make.

I think that has contributed to making me a slightly more self-conscious person, if unintentionally.

[Gwalchmai]

Ok, I've read the OP, but not the rest, I must confess. But I will Speak My Mind regardless.

My wife tells me there is a whole body of literature concerned with media literacy and advertising to children. Advertisers are increasingly targeting kids because the kids have greater influence over household purchases and thus greater buying power. Well, she knows these things, since it bears on her profession, so I'll take her word for it.

For us, we've tried to help our children come to some awareness about this in several ways. First, we limit their viewing time of kid's TV channels that have open advertising. Second, we respect their own intelligence and keep a dialog open about advertising tricks of the trade. For example, we ask them if that candy would really make your head turn into a watermelon. They can extrapolate from this answer and call into question all claims made by advertisements. Of course, we still sometimes fall prey to some promotions, and we can remind them of their impressions of a former miss-guided purchase when they start clamoring for a new purchase. Fortunately, we retain the control over all purchases, and we sometimes resort to tough love.

It is very hard, though, because advertisements directed at children are ubiquitous these days. When I was a kid, I could only refer to the Sears and Roebuck Catalog for my toy choices, as few television commercials on the five available channels (one of which had no ads) were directed at kids. I remember a Rock-em Sock-em Robots commercial, and "You sunk my Battleship!"

Oh, yes, and in my day, Charlie the Tuna was just not good enough to be Chicken of the Sea.

[Tricky]

As scary as the thought may be to certain individuals, I really do intend to become a good father some day. I have another question.

Assuming for a moment that I'll be doing a swell job raising Little Tricky, is there a certain age when further parenting will cease to make a difference? Exemplifying teaching a child over supporting one, are things likely to be taken out of your hands at a certain age?

[dragon wench]

As scary as the thought may be to certain individuals, I really do intend to become a good father some day. I have another question.

Assuming for a moment that I'll be doing a swell job raising Little Tricky, is there a certain age when further parenting will cease to make a difference? Exemplifying teaching a child over supporting one, are things likely to be taken out of your hands at a certain age?

That's quite a question... I'll try to answer it if I can.
My son is 13, he'll be 14 in February. I have found that parenting is such a crapshoot. You never quite know if you are doing the right thing, and you always worry about the consequences your actions and decisions could have down the road.
A lot of people out there act as though there is some kind of roadmap or blueprint that will teach people how to be parents. Sure, there are guides, and individuals can give advice, but it is a journey that, ultimately, only you can travel. Everything you do is so very subjective and dependent on your personal values and situation.

All that being said.. to address your question more directly..
I have found that the relationship between parent and child evolves and you each naturally adapt to changing conditions, part of which involves that child getting older. I have always had a close relationship with my son, and I have always encouraged him to ask questions, to speak about anything that comes to mind. Thus, few, if any, subjects are forbidden. The way we speak about things has changed as he has matured. For example, when he was about eight he asked why some drugs were deemed "good" (i.e over the counter pharmaceuticals), while other drugs are illegal, even though both can cause damage. At that time I spoke extensively about the severity of something like a heroin addiction. I wanted him to understand that while over-the-counter drugs could be abused, narcotics such as heroin could have far more instant and far reaching consequences.
Now that he is more mature, and understands far more, I feel more comfortable discussing those shades of grey with him, so I'll talk about the fact that there is also a political agenda at work.. I'll talk about the fact that some drugs are less potentially dangerous than others.
My reasoning here is not to encourage him to experiment, but rather, I feel that openness means he is far less likely to go furtively buying pot in a back ally somewhere that has been laced with all manner of harmful substances. I want him to be aware, I want him to be educated, and I want him to feel comfortable confiding in me where subjects like this are concerned.
Do I worry if I am doing the right thing? Sure, of course, all the time. But, for me, it is a question of going with what instinctively feels right, so that is what I do.

I don't think parenting ever really stops, it just adjusts as the child becomes older and more self aware.

Or, at least, that is my humble two cents anyway

[Demortis]

Ok, so, any advice on how to stop this from happening while your not in the immediate area?