So, now that 4E is out, what do you think?
I'm not exactly thrilled by what I see. It comes off as bland, overly simplified and very MMO-ish. The widely praised "at-will" powers are just the same basic attack, with a different "graphic" attached to it, if you were playing this on PC. There's no real difference between classes. I hate the fact that mechanicly, the Wizard is as good at hitting things with a stick as a Fighter. I hate the fact that reach got hosed, in essence.
You don't actually get better at things, since skill checks scale with level. So gathering experience and training just became meaningless.
They took the simplification too far. This feels like playing good old Heroquest-boardgame. It might be fun, but it isn't a deep, immersive RPG system. It's a tactical skirmish game.
I'm all for a simple system, but not at the cost of detail. For example, getting rid of the god-awful complicated statistics tables of AD&D 2.0 is a good thing: their randomness and complexity didn't add a thing to the game. The way StarWarsSE simplified skills by taking skillpoints out of it and combining certain skills, that was a good move.
I also don't get it why everybody is going on about "Combat goes so much faster now!" I heard this from people who played with 1st lvl character... Seriously, how come that rolling two dice (Attack & Damage) takes so much more time in 3.5 than it does now, apparently?
So, now that 4Eis out, what do you think?
It replaced sorcerers with warlocks, seriously. Suck.
It killed off Gnomes and Half-orcs and replaced them with... demon-men, dragon-men and another type of elf.
There are no more barbarians.
There are no more bards.
It added another fighter class that's sole difference is that it's attacks also included yelling at people. I'm not joking. (It's called a "warlord.")
Wizards no longer run out of spells. (Overpowered much?)
Combat "conditions" are overly standardised.
There are only 5 alignments now. Speaking as someone who's favourite alignment is Chaotic Neutral, I'm not happy.
Oh, and:
Imagination is now against the game rules. No thinking. (Okay, I'm making this up.)
I weep.
I'm gonna dig out my old AD&D 2.0 manuals I think.
It killed off Gnomes and Half-orcs and replaced them with... demon-men, dragon-men and another type of elf.
There are no more barbarians.
There are no more bards.
It added another fighter class that's sole difference is that it's attacks also included yelling at people. I'm not joking. (It's called a "warlord.")
Wizards no longer run out of spells. (Overpowered much?)
Combat "conditions" are overly standardised.
There are only 5 alignments now. Speaking as someone who's favourite alignment is Chaotic Neutral, I'm not happy.
Oh, and:
Imagination is now against the game rules. No thinking. (Okay, I'm making this up.)
I weep.
I'm gonna dig out my old AD&D 2.0 manuals I think.
Now, I've only played D&D a few times (it was 3rd Edition), and the group was rather disorganized, so I never really got into it, and I don't know much about the subject, but from what people are saying, 4th Edition seems to destroy almost everything that made D&D well, D&D.
Cyro, what do you mean by wizards don't run out of spells?! 0_o You no longer have to memorize spells? Because that might be a little bit confusing for players, and it needs to be dumbed down so WotC can make lots of money? And five alignments? The hell? But, the system barely even works if you take some out, because then there are missing alignment slots. Now I'm curious, I'm going to go look up the new rules online, or something.
Oh, and 'Warlord' sounds hilarious. *yell-scream-r0ar!* Anyway, off to see if I can find the rules. I am both amused and disgusted by what I have heard.
Cyro, what do you mean by wizards don't run out of spells?! 0_o You no longer have to memorize spells? Because that might be a little bit confusing for players, and it needs to be dumbed down so WotC can make lots of money? And five alignments? The hell? But, the system barely even works if you take some out, because then there are missing alignment slots. Now I'm curious, I'm going to go look up the new rules online, or something.
Oh, and 'Warlord' sounds hilarious. *yell-scream-r0ar!* Anyway, off to see if I can find the rules. I am both amused and disgusted by what I have heard.
"You like my helm? It's +5 Sexterity...It's...It's like Dexterity...but with 'sex'...in the front. Like a prefix...I'm kind of a linguist." - Zaboo, The Guild
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Siberys
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He means that with the new Encounter Power system and At Will power system, you will virtually never run out of spells. Encounter powers, as it sounds, can be used once per encounter. At will can be used any time you feel like it.Cyro, what do you mean by wizards don't run out of spells?!
However, spells are exceptionally weaker than normal now. The entirety of fourth edition is balanced, I will admit, but it's essentially the MMORPG version of dungeons and dragons.
I tried to play a campaign revolving heavily around roleplaying. It failed. Horribly. And I've never had a problem with DMing heavy RP games before.
Listen up maggots, Mr. Popo's 'bout to teach you the pecking order.
It goes you, the dirt, the worms inside of the dirt, Popo's stool, Kami, then Popo.
~Mr. Popo, Dragonball Z Abridged
It goes you, the dirt, the worms inside of the dirt, Popo's stool, Kami, then Popo.
~Mr. Popo, Dragonball Z Abridged
Thanks for the clarification. Sounds like it rather ruins the wizard class. And, like you said, Siberys, it sounds like they're trying to turn it into an MMO, or something. How they flattened out the stats for classes but allow you to boost them through skills, and stuff. Over all it really sounds way less flavorful. I wish I could find rules online, but I guess they don't let that information out, as that would mean less people would buy the books. Even though I don't really play D&D, I'm curious about the specific rules now, but that's not enough to justify buying the book. Especially since it sounds worse than 3rd, which I already have. 
Again, thanks for clarifying. I have one more question regarding spells. So, are spells like Fireball usable once per each encounter, or something? Because that sounds really flat and boring.
Again, thanks for clarifying. I have one more question regarding spells. So, are spells like Fireball usable once per each encounter, or something? Because that sounds really flat and boring.
"You like my helm? It's +5 Sexterity...It's...It's like Dexterity...but with 'sex'...in the front. Like a prefix...I'm kind of a linguist." - Zaboo, The Guild
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Siberys
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Fireball is a once per day spell, which does 3D6 + intelligence in damage. It does not improve.
Once per day powers and spells, btw, are literally once per day things. It's not like old times where you can have slots or anything, you get to use fireball 1 time in 24 hours, no exceptions.
This is insane.
Oh, side note: Terry Pratchett quote is wrong in your sig.
"Build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day. Set a man afire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
The pun is set up by "a fire" and "afire."
Once per day powers and spells, btw, are literally once per day things. It's not like old times where you can have slots or anything, you get to use fireball 1 time in 24 hours, no exceptions.
This is insane.
Oh, side note: Terry Pratchett quote is wrong in your sig.
"Build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day. Set a man afire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
The pun is set up by "a fire" and "afire."
Listen up maggots, Mr. Popo's 'bout to teach you the pecking order.
It goes you, the dirt, the worms inside of the dirt, Popo's stool, Kami, then Popo.
~Mr. Popo, Dragonball Z Abridged
It goes you, the dirt, the worms inside of the dirt, Popo's stool, Kami, then Popo.
~Mr. Popo, Dragonball Z Abridged
*Is embarrassed*
I don't come on here much, and I must have copied the quote wrong. I know that's how it's supposed to be, I'm not sure how it got messed up. Thanks for pointing it out.
And, yeah, the spells are pretty messed up and, as you say, insane. :speech:
I don't come on here much, and I must have copied the quote wrong.
I know that's how it's supposed to be, I'm not sure how it got messed up. Thanks for pointing it out.And, yeah, the spells are pretty messed up and, as you say, insane. :speech:
"You like my helm? It's +5 Sexterity...It's...It's like Dexterity...but with 'sex'...in the front. Like a prefix...I'm kind of a linguist." - Zaboo, The Guild
Don't get me started on alignment... First of all, the old system was good and original, with its good/evel, lawful/chaos dichotomy. Secondly, the things that they kept, made no sense out all. NG & CG are the same now. If I shut down my brain, I can understand that. That would let us think that NE & CE are the same. Apparently not. Why the association of Law with Good and Chaos with Evil? Is it so that the new players can understand it without having to read things?
I do not doubt that it is balanced. They made sure that all you have to do is a roll a 12 all the time, not matter what you're willing to do. This, considered with the fact that they tell you that the game is over at lvl 30, led to someone saying something like this. "Great, so all I have to do is, roll 12 240 times 30 levels to win D&D... Sounds quite boring."
Syberis, of course your RP campaign failed. Haven't you read the part where they tell about "playing without a DM?" Why would you need a story? Stories are way overrated.
I do not doubt that it is balanced. They made sure that all you have to do is a roll a 12 all the time, not matter what you're willing to do. This, considered with the fact that they tell you that the game is over at lvl 30, led to someone saying something like this. "Great, so all I have to do is, roll 12 240 times 30 levels to win D&D... Sounds quite boring."
Syberis, of course your RP campaign failed. Haven't you read the part where they tell about "playing without a DM?"
Why would you need a story? Stories are way overrated. -
Siberys
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Oh dear god yes. The instant I read that I wanted to pick up the book and light it on fire. But knowing full well I invested my final paycheck from krogers into it, I decided against it.Syberis, of course your RP campaign failed. Haven't you read the part where they tell about "playing without a DM?"
Whats worse is the way they describe playing without a DM. It says "You need someone to only run the monster cards, the dungeon and other areas and the NPC's."
Umm....That's a bloody DM you idjits at WoTC!!
Listen up maggots, Mr. Popo's 'bout to teach you the pecking order.
It goes you, the dirt, the worms inside of the dirt, Popo's stool, Kami, then Popo.
~Mr. Popo, Dragonball Z Abridged
It goes you, the dirt, the worms inside of the dirt, Popo's stool, Kami, then Popo.
~Mr. Popo, Dragonball Z Abridged
It was a disappointment. I was really looking forward to it, especially after I read that 4E would incorporate stuff from SW:SE. I really like those rules.
There's always Paizo's new take on 3.5... Check out http://www.paizo.com ; the new rules are available for download for free.
We played those adventures, and I have to say they are the best I've ever seen. Deep, detailed, mature and original.
There's always Paizo's new take on 3.5... Check out http://www.paizo.com ; the new rules are available for download for free.
We played those adventures, and I have to say they are the best I've ever seen. Deep, detailed, mature and original.
In the view of a lot of us, 3rd edition already did that.Kienan wrote:from what people are saying, 4th Edition seems to destroy almost everything that made D&D well, D&D.
[QUOTE=Darth Gavinius;1096098]Distrbution of games, is becoming a little like Democracy (all about money and control) - in the end choice is an illusion and you have to choose your lesser evil.
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
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Siberys
- Posts: 6207
- Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 7:16 pm
- Location: I live in that one place with the thing
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Fixed your link. The semicolon caused problems when attached to the link.
I must say, downloading the PDF of pathfinder, I REALLY like it. I went straight to my favorite class of course, the Bard, and absolutely love the revisions.
But of course, there are more revisions. Fighters are now quite balanced considering lack of attention from the update to 3.5 (the majority of feats from 3E to 3.5 were reduced in power, but fighters were left unchanged, making them quite weak in comparison to other classes). Ex-clerics and Ex-Druids was necessary beforehand, glad they put that in there. And oh dear god I just LOVE the sorcerer. Seriously, I'm typing this post as I read the book, and I came across this moments ago. Just...awesomeness.
But did they fix a lot of the extremely complex rules.....ahh...well it's still rather complex but much more balanced. That's for sure. And although it's complex, I do like how they worded the rules. Makes it easy on the eyes (made me laugh that they were so pissed about the earlier grapple rules that they made a side section to actually comment on it).
I dunno what to say other than I LOVE IT! I feel like X the Eliminator on Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law, I just wanna snatch everything up like it's a "Crest on Birdman's helmet!!"
I must say, downloading the PDF of pathfinder, I REALLY like it. I went straight to my favorite class of course, the Bard, and absolutely love the revisions.
But of course, there are more revisions. Fighters are now quite balanced considering lack of attention from the update to 3.5 (the majority of feats from 3E to 3.5 were reduced in power, but fighters were left unchanged, making them quite weak in comparison to other classes). Ex-clerics and Ex-Druids was necessary beforehand, glad they put that in there. And oh dear god I just LOVE the sorcerer. Seriously, I'm typing this post as I read the book, and I came across this moments ago. Just...awesomeness.
But did they fix a lot of the extremely complex rules.....ahh...well it's still rather complex but much more balanced. That's for sure. And although it's complex, I do like how they worded the rules. Makes it easy on the eyes (made me laugh that they were so pissed about the earlier grapple rules that they made a side section to actually comment on it).
I dunno what to say other than I LOVE IT! I feel like X the Eliminator on Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law, I just wanna snatch everything up like it's a "Crest on Birdman's helmet!!"
Listen up maggots, Mr. Popo's 'bout to teach you the pecking order.
It goes you, the dirt, the worms inside of the dirt, Popo's stool, Kami, then Popo.
~Mr. Popo, Dragonball Z Abridged
It goes you, the dirt, the worms inside of the dirt, Popo's stool, Kami, then Popo.
~Mr. Popo, Dragonball Z Abridged
Glad that you like it. I did like their previous skillsystem better: it was closer to StarWars: Saga Edition. The current system doesn't make things easier or better. (Apart from the much needed skill-grouping.)
In my opinion, there are still a few things that they need to adress, like Ranger & Paladin caster level, and the pathetic 2 skill points for fighters. (Just make it lvl -4, it wouldn't be gamebreaking.)
In all, however, it adresses a lot of issues.
Galraen, mechanicly 3.x was a huge leap forward from AD&D. It simplified things while adding depth. (Example: see my comment on the tables from AD&D) I know, AD&D has skill as well, and prestige classes, and what not, but only after a lot of splatbooks. 3.5 had a "few" splatbooks as well, but they only expanded, not added necessary things, as was the case in AD&D.
Another thing that bugs me, is how suddenly all the lore/background gets tossed away. I can live with that, since all my campaigns still use the old AD&D cosmology. (The Great Wheel, travelling from one setting to another, etc...)
In my opinion, there are still a few things that they need to adress, like Ranger & Paladin caster level, and the pathetic 2 skill points for fighters. (Just make it lvl -4, it wouldn't be gamebreaking.)
In all, however, it adresses a lot of issues.
Galraen, mechanicly 3.x was a huge leap forward from AD&D. It simplified things while adding depth. (Example: see my comment on the tables from AD&D) I know, AD&D has skill as well, and prestige classes, and what not, but only after a lot of splatbooks. 3.5 had a "few" splatbooks as well, but they only expanded, not added necessary things, as was the case in AD&D.
Another thing that bugs me, is how suddenly all the lore/background gets tossed away. I can live with that, since all my campaigns still use the old AD&D cosmology. (The Great Wheel, travelling from one setting to another, etc...)
If by simplified you mean dumbed down I'd agree, added depth = piled on the cheese.
The problem is as Hasboro aimed it's product at younger and younger targets the need for instant gratification and kiddy related simplicity destroyed the game for more mature players. Fortunately we still have our old books and self made revisions, so I guess it doesn't really matter too much. The problem for me and others is the effect 3E had on CRPGs basically destroying the genre, going from BG and BG2 to dire anti-role-playing trash like nwn2.
The problem is as Hasboro aimed it's product at younger and younger targets the need for instant gratification and kiddy related simplicity destroyed the game for more mature players. Fortunately we still have our old books and self made revisions, so I guess it doesn't really matter too much. The problem for me and others is the effect 3E had on CRPGs basically destroying the genre, going from BG and BG2 to dire anti-role-playing trash like nwn2.
[QUOTE=Darth Gavinius;1096098]Distrbution of games, is becoming a little like Democracy (all about money and control) - in the end choice is an illusion and you have to choose your lesser evil.
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
AD&D being simplified was a good thing. There was no added value, nor logic, by using the complex save & Thac0 system, there were no things such as skills (apart from the Thief's thievery skills), I never got it why stats were capped at 25, you never got to make any choice apart from weapon proficiencies and the tables, dear God, the tables... All in all, the 3.5 gives better, deeper gameplay with less effort.
I agree, splatbooks remedied that. But compare the core books only, for arguments' sake.
You have a lot more freedom in 3.x, something that can't be denied. This is my main gripe with 4E: it takes away the customazibility. I don't mean by sheer amount of options (it would be silly to hold that against a brand-new system), but the impact choices have.
About BG & NWN... I think that's rather due to the developers than to the system it uses. It's silly to hold the "RP-ness" of a system against it, since you provide that yourself, unless, like Syberis explained, the system (4E in this case; basic-AD&D was just as lousy) doesn't support anything other than combat. 3.x had excellent means to portray non-combat skills. (This doesn't take away the fact that it still was a combat-heavy game.)
I agree, splatbooks remedied that. But compare the core books only, for arguments' sake.
You have a lot more freedom in 3.x, something that can't be denied. This is my main gripe with 4E: it takes away the customazibility. I don't mean by sheer amount of options (it would be silly to hold that against a brand-new system), but the impact choices have.
About BG & NWN... I think that's rather due to the developers than to the system it uses. It's silly to hold the "RP-ness" of a system against it, since you provide that yourself, unless, like Syberis explained, the system (4E in this case; basic-AD&D was just as lousy) doesn't support anything other than combat. 3.x had excellent means to portray non-combat skills. (This doesn't take away the fact that it still was a combat-heavy game.)
