Point & Counterpoint: Realism at D&D High Levels
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Applebrown: heheh. think about Throne of Bhaal [expansion pack to Baldur's Gate II] and what concerns you about the high levels you can attain.
Flagg: I was thinking about the translation of Pen & Paper roleplaying into a computer RPG.
Applebrown: What about it?
Flagg: P&P is about roleplaying. CRPG's are about gaining levels.
Applebrown: Well, one of the objects of CRPGing is to create more than just leveling but have a story element as well.
Flagg: In the end, it is all about what level you can attain. Just look at Throne of Bhaal.
Applebrown: Why do you think there's a consistent trend to increase the amount of levels someone can gain from game to game in a CRPG?
Flagg: Simple, because they are unable to produce an effective and truly challenging AI for roleplaying games.
Applebrown: What do you mean by that?
Flagg: Take a look at BG2. It is so easy to rest and fight and then take a rest. Fight and then rest. There's hardly any challenge in that. Thus the only way they can make it challenging is by giving you an incentive to fight. the incentive being XP and thus more levels.
Applebrown: What about the fact that each quest was a separate and quite often intriguing mini-story?
Flagg: Well I am not saying that the game storyline wasn't great. It really was. It is just that they propel you from level 1 to level 23 in about 250 days over BG1 thru BG2.
Applebrown: In its essence, what's wrong with being level 23?
Flagg: In essence there is nothing really wrong with it, but it just doesn't feel right in the way that it is done. I remember the earlier games such as EOB. In three games you could only get to level 18 or something. There you really felt that you deserved it when you leveled up. Here it is something that is constantly happening.
Applebrown: I think that's because of the hardcore factor of the EOB games was higher.... in BG2 and games today, people are needing more of a constant thrill rather than working a lot towards a goal... there seems to be less time or people are more impatient today than they were in the early 90's.
Flagg: Less time ???? BG2 = 200 + gaming hours.
Applebrown: BG2 was a time sink yes... but it didn't seem a waste of time when you were playing it. There was constant progression from all angles, while in games like EOB there was a long time before a level gain and its progression mainly came from items and deeper exploration.
Flagg: Okay, level 23 is defendable, but they are taking it another step with Throne of Bhaal; here they propel you in a matter of just a few levels from level 23 to level 40.
Applebrown: That does seem to be dramatic. <laughs> I apologize, I coudn't help but agree with you there.
Flagg: That is what I thought about PS:T. They had a pretty decent leveling system right up until the end, when you suddenly gained a huge amount of XP. They will probably do something similar in the add-on.
Applebrown: What do you think the point is of that... to propel a player suddenly into godhood?
Flagg: Very simple, they attract players by saying that their character will be able to reach high levels. They are, however, unable to "normally" satisfy this in the game and thus they need something spectacular to suddenly give the character a boost.
Flagg: Let me ask you this. What is the fun of playing a level 40 character? What is the challenge?
Applebrown: I would think the challenge is about the same relatively speaking as it would be for a level 5 character, except your array and their array of weapons has increased dramatically which leads to more choices.
Flagg: Well you are missing an important point. What are you going to fight at that level taking the Forgotten Realms setting into account?
Applebrown: Well obviously they would (powerlevel) the normal monsters into being equivalent challenges for all the characters, thus boosting the idea of playing a godlike character.
Flagg: Doesn't that destroy the credibility of the surroundings?
Applebrown: What do you mean by surroundings?
Flagg: Well, take a look at the established world, its characters, its heroes and villains. Here your party comes along and basically say "screw that.)
Applebrown: A main idea of many games is the suspension of disbelief, and if a game can accomplish that even while destroying realistic boundaries, then I think that game can be called a success... if it's also an entertaining experience.
Flagg: I agree that games need to be entertaining and fun. Hell, that is why we play them. I feel, however, that you are limited when you start a game in a D&D world. There are certain guidelines that you have to adhere to.
Applebrown: Rules, boundaries... what consequence are these to a designer? =)
Flagg: A designer takes a D&D setting for a particular reason. He wants to appeal to the casual gamer and the hardcore D&D fan. They come and plot their game, and they end up destroying the balance that is part of that D&D setting... at least in the Throne of Bhaal case.
Applebrown: sec... sister in room! okay gone.
Flagg: <laughs>
Applebrown: You have a point. If you are borrowing from the D&D license, how far can you actually stretch it before it becomes somewhat laughable?
Flagg: I guess that depends on the way that it is handled. P&P gaming is about adventuring and about truly developing your character. This is less the case in a CRPG.
Applebrown: Well the characters in CRPG's are all scripted, and BG2 made a leap forward in developing them more toward traditional D&D standards.
Flagg: I know that BG2 made a leap forward, but at what cost? They made the game more about gaining levels then truly about adventuring.... BG1 was great. You got to slowly develop your character into a level 8 or 9 character. They did this in a balanced matter. In BG2, however, while focusing on the storyline and the points that you mention, it is seemingly more important to gain levels.
Applebrown: There was so much story to the game, how can you make that claim? I think a point could be made that BG2 was about the building of a successful team and the comradery that was shared between players would make a lasting impression on the gamer, and that's part of what made BG2 a success, besides just the levels.
Flagg: Have you ever taken a look at how long it would really take to create and develop a P&P level 23 character?
Applebrown: Yes I have thought about that but you must realize that in the world of computer RPGing, times are sped up by exponential factors and players are looking for hours of a particular fix rather than months of continuous weekly gaming sessions.
Flagg: Okay, I am getting what you are saying, but why does this 'fix' need to come in the form of levels and not in the form of completed quests or other related story items?
Applebrown: Weren't there hundreds of mini quests in BG2?
Flagg: Yes, but the reason why most of them are being played is to gain XP... I feel that I am on very unsolid ground here......
Applebrown: <laughs> Well, the point of any RPG that has been made is to make it to a final encounter or part of the storyline... and naturally progression of character development will play a big role in that. So, naturally too characters are going to be gaining levels in between, but that doesn't necessarily mean the game is all about gaining those levels... there is much more to BG2 I believe than just that.
Flagg: Yeah you are right... so to switch to another point... Take a look at the roll of characters such as Elminister. He has to be one of the most powerful figures in the Forgotten Realms setting - in Throne of Bhaal you could probably enslave him with your power....
Applebrown: You could, in the P&P version of Elminster, but if you translate that to a CRPG character, he is a legend and will always (in general) be out of grasp of a character that you can play. Whatever level you possess in a CRPG, the game will make Elminster more powerful.
Flagg: One of the successful things about the Forgotten Realms setting is that everything is supported by everything. What happens in one novel is normally reflected and used in another novel. Somehow they are doing stuff with these games which would most definitely not happen in the regular development of the setting.
Applebrown: Well with entertainment, it raises the problem of making a game to meet realistic requirements. The fundamental point of a game is to be entertaining... and lately the game companies have been exaggerating the realism factor by taking what's conventional even further.
Flagg: Don't you feel that the Forgotten Realms and the D&D rule set is offering more than enough room to develop an entertaining setting without having to resort to level 40 tactics?
Applebrown: Do you remember the beginning of Baldur's Gate? It took a long time to reach level 2 and 3. I believe that people that have already played those games aren't looking for the same experience, but more an experience of being godlike. And that's why I think that the companies are expanding and exaggerating the way that they are.
Flagg: So are you saying that gaming companies can do just about anything they want with a setting like the Forgotten Realms, as long as the gamer likes it?
Applebrown: In essence, yes. =)
