What's your plans for Nwn2 SoZ?...

[Claudius]

The druid shape treant for some reason counts as an animal shape. At least last I checked. Its important to be in an animal shape because you can cast the spells you would normally buff your animal companion with on yourself. I think in particular there is a high level spell that is the money spell for shapeshifting.

[Fljotsdale]

Also the camera... I constantly have to fix the angle to my preference.
a real nuisance.[/size][/font]

THAT has always been a BIG complaint of mine about NWN2. Pity they haven't improved on it yet. Oh well.......

[Mz_Trixter]

I think I've finally found a party I'll be sticking with. I remember someone posting the level limit is still at lv. 30, so this arrangment should go long
I might make some last minute tweeks to 'em though.

(standard lvls continue with base classes after all others finish)
First Character
(Female, Human)(Lawful Evil)
Int, Dex, Cha
Rogue 10
Shadow Thief of Amn 5
Black Gaurd 5+

Second Character
(Male, Strongheart Halfling)(Lawful Good)
Wis, Dex, Cha
Cleric 8
Monk 2
Sacred Fist 5+

Third Character
(Female, Moon Elf)(Chaotic Good)
Dex, Cha
Bard 12
Arcane Archer 5+

Fourth Character
(Male, Human)(Chaotic Neutral)
Str, Int, Dex, Cha
Fighter 6
Warlock 12
Hellfire Warlock 3*

And that's right, I'll be playing as an evil she-devil throughout the game
I've also managed to create a background story for her aswell.
I'm also looking forward to party rushes during fights (might get me trigger happy) courtesy of the sacred fist :laugh:

[Kefka1983]

The wild shape doesn't get good until Plant Shape at 12 level Druid (character level 13 with one level of Monk). Its up to you if you want to wait that long.

I'd likely either do a wisdom based archery character OR a spear user.

EX. Human 16/12/14/10/16/8 (always increasing Wisdom)

Druid level 1-5, Stormlord level 6-15
Starting Feats: Toughness & Great Fortitude
3r level: Weapon Focus Spear
6th level: Blind Fight
9th level: Power Attack
12th level: Cleave
15th level: Great Cleave

OR (a more Defensive build):

9th level: Monkey Grip (for use with a shield)
12th level: Improved Critical Spear
15th level: a melee feat of your choice.

OR (a Zen Archer)

3rd level: Weapon Focus Dart
6th level: Zen Archery
9th level: Point Blank Shot
12th level: Rapid Shot
15th level: Many Shot

All 3 are specifically geared toward maintaining the Druid's spell level progression (up to level 15) - which I think is paramount. (It gets you up to 8th level spells - and Storm Avatar is one of those level 8 spells.) Of the 3 choices I would probably choose the middle choice - i.e. the "Defensive build". My reasoning here is that with good medium armor, a good shield, and higher level Barkskin - you can achieve a *very* good AC level while still having decent attack numbers and good damage. Without the shield you are a bit more vulnerable.

The Archery build just takes too long to get good with offensive physical attacks (their number per round rather than their attack number). You *could* add-in 2 fighter levels (at level 6 & 7), and remove 2 Stormlord levels - THAT would get you your archery feats soon enough to work - but at the expense of level 8 spells (in a 15 level build). The spell Owl's Insight would make for a high attack number (..despite the loss of the +1 from level 9 Stormlord). IMO though, not worth the loss in spell power.

.........

Your Cleric build could also be "powered" by the Stormlord class.

If you think you might run into Undead and Outsiders then I'd go for the Doomguide with the Domains: Evil & Sun. Note that "Outsiders" encompass the largest single group of Enemy classifications - many of them quite difficult to kill (..Undead aren't exactly easier either :laugh .

.........

Here is the Info on the Wildshape forms:

Wild Shape - Neverwinter Nights 2 - NWN2Wiki: your guide to everything Neverwinter Nights 2

Note that none are really good until level 12 when they become Dire.. and at that point you might as well assume Treant form. The basic Bear form would likely be the best of the lot with a Monk at lower levels. As for a strength number - the wildshape OVERWRITES the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution. Meaning if you wanted to you could "hose" all 3 attributes (..though note that you will have several levels before you get wild shape AND that some feats require a certain attribute number before they become optional).

How much charisma should a doomguide have for turning?

EDIT: Also, what should I have equipped on these 4 after reaching Samargol and the first merchant?

[Scottg]

How much charisma should a doomguide have for turning?

EDIT: Also, what should I have equipped on these 4 after reaching Samargol and the first merchant?

Sorry - got the module and started playing..

Considering that Wisdom is the primary (16+), 14 for Charisma.

I'd be looking for the best non-magical armor you can find/afford. Note that you can pickpocket the merchants.:mischief:

[Scottg]

So far this is for my first "pass" through SOZ:

Basic premise - outstanding skills (level and diversity), hide and attack with ranged sneak attacks and traps, or if necessary magic/summons. (..the entire party is capable of hiding so no-one is left "exposed", and so that trap setting has greater potential.) ALL the characters are designed to achieve the single Shadow Dancer level as early as possible = character level 8 (for Hide in Plain Sight). Basic High level skills for *all* characters: Hide, Move Silently, Listen/Spot (often both), and Tumble.

Leader: Sun Elf (male) 8/17/12/19/8/8 Rogue/Wizard/SD/Arcane Trickster. 3 Rogue levels, 5 Wizard levels, the rest AT. Feat: Dodge, at 3rd level Mobility, 6th level Point Blank, Spellcaster: Wizard, etc... Interleave the Rogue/Wizard classes (with Rogue to start), to get a good blend on skill points for various skill sets.

Reasons: High intelligence character ='s lots of skill points, points that can be spent on not only Hide/Move Silently/Tumble, but both for Dialogue skills and to meet the pre-requisites for both prestige classes. A Sun Elf not only has a high intelligence, but it also has a favored class Wizard to remove any possible penalty in the build. The Wizard class builds on the intelligence essentially converting it into spells. The Rogue/SD/AT are excellent-to-good skill point classes with many of the skills "open" that allow for strong diversity, additionally the classes latter on will accumulate enough Sneak Attack to qualify for the Team Benefit: Superior Flank. Another reason for the *ELF* is for latter obtaining the Teamwork Benefit: Group Trance to cut down on "nap time". Because of the high skill points - other Team Benefits to work on will be: Awareness, Camp Routine, Fearsome Roster, and possibly Team Rush (though it requires the feat Toughness). 1st additional attribute point = Intelligence (higher skills). The next is for Dexterity. The rest are for Intelligence.

Mage: Strongheart Halfling (Female) 6/18/14/18/8/8 Rogue/Wizard/SD/Arcane Scholar of Candlekeep. Feat: Able Learner, Dodge, 3rd level Mobility, 6th level Skill Focus Concentration, Wizard 5th level bonus Empower Spell, 9th level Skill Focus Spellcraft, etc.. Rogue is for one level at the beginning.

Reasons: Here the Rogue and Able learner "power" the skills through the character's levels. This character is purely for Magic use, the Sneak Attack is a waste but the High-Level access to Hide/Move Silently is pivotal. Additional high level skill set: Appraise. The ASoC class is there for 3 levels for Improved Empower Spell. The race gives an additional feat at 1st level AND is a Rogue favored class (..to avoid multi-class penalties). It also has a bonus to AC and Dexterity - important for higher AC levels without armor and with Mirror Image.

Assassin*s*: Strongheart Halflings (Male) 10/20/14/14/8/8 Rogue/Fighter/Assassin/SD. Feat: Dodge, Pointblank, Fighter bonus - Mobility, 3rd level Blindfight, Fighter bonus Rapid Shot, etc.. Interleave the Rogue/Fighter classes (with Rogue to start), to get a good blend on skill points for various skills (..mostly means that skill points derived while selecting "Fighter" are held-over until the next Rogue class). Assassin levels start in as early as possible - level 6 (with a break at level 8 for the SD class), with 3 Rogue levels and 2 Fighter levels before it.

Reasons: 2 Characters here to handle the high-level damage *with* high attack numbers for an other-wise medium BAB class structure. The Strongheart Halfling race has *2* bonuses to attack - one for its size and one for thrown weapons. Both characters are structured to use thrown weapons. Obviously neither the weapon nor the character's strength play any part in increasing damage, nor is their additional damage via "specialization". Here its all about delivering high-level sneak attack damage and being able to "run-away" after making the "hit". 2 Characters facilitate this better. Additionally one character is designed for Searching and Setting/Disabling Traps; the other for Opening Locks, Pickpocketing, and making Traps. The higher level Intelligence is not only for skill points, but is also for increasing the chance for paralyzation via the Assassin's Death Attack.

Note on Use: the first fight wasn't to bad with multiple Grease spells, without them it would have been a nightmare - no thrown weapons (and no Weapon Finesse), no traps either. Remember that spells like Grease, Web, etc.. immobilize opponents leaving them exposed to Sneak Attacks.:mischief:

[Claudius]

If you could write an AI to make party members run all over the place you could create a lot of attacks of opportunity while likewise avoiding such with mobility and tumble.

[Kefka1983]

What level do you take SD for the first two characters?

EDIT: Never mind, just saw where you said level 8. But for the Sun elf, how did you dump 19 points in to INT at creation? I can only do 18 with one point left over.

[Claudius]

Kefka did you accidentally pick moon elf? sun gets +2 int so he can start with even 20 int. Still good to start with 18 then you get 3 points to spend on other stats.

[Kefka1983]

Hmm, no, it's definitely sun elf with the golden skin and hair. Maybe I need to choose wizard as starting class?

EDIT: Nope, I just patched and with either rogue or wizard as creation class I cannot achieve the stat spread that scottg lists. I must be missing something.

Also, Scottg, when I asked what I should be buying for my party, can I put the heaviest armor available on my cleric, ranger and bard and still cast spells? When I put chain mail on my ranger it says his ranger abilities are disabled. Thanks again.

[Mz_Trixter]

*minor spoiler* you been warned..

Also, Scottg, when I asked what I should be buying for my party, can I put the heaviest armor available on my cleric, ranger and bard and still cast spells? When I put chain mail on my ranger it says his ranger abilities are disabled. Thanks again.

Heavy armor on Rangers or bards will kill their spell casting %
As one of my chars, I decided to go straight Yuan Ti - Ranger + whatever despite the fact early in the game you're able to get a "

Spoiler

Tree-Hugger

" to join you but I still won't put any chain or plate on her. The bard's same way (arcane caster) and will get penalized.

[Scottg]

Hmm, no, it's definitely sun elf with the golden skin and hair. Maybe I need to choose wizard as starting class?

EDIT: Nope, I just patched and with either rogue or wizard as creation class I cannot achieve the stat spread that scottg lists. I must be missing something.

Also, Scottg, when I asked what I should be buying for my party, can I put the heaviest armor available on my cleric, ranger and bard and still cast spells? When I put chain mail on my ranger it says his ranger abilities are disabled. Thanks again.

You are correct - *8* in Strength. (..its not needed for this character.)

For armor:

Clerics - anything goes.
Bard - light armor no spell casting penalty, (with battle caster) medium armor no spell casting penalty, anything else = spell casting penalty.
Ranger - no spellcasting penalty (not that you have access to that yet), BUT not only is the class rated to only use light armor - IF you have the ability to wear heavier armor (and actually do that) then you loose your feat specialties (archery or dual-weapon).

UPDATE:

DAMN! this is tough!

I knew the (stealth) party would be weak offensively at the beginning, but I had no idea just *how* week. Most attacks hit - BUT sneak attacks are comparatively rare against mobs - and mobs are pretty much all you get early in the game. In the overland map there is no time to set traps - and even if I could I don't have any recipes for them (..and precious few purchased). HIPS is pretty much required for that - and I'm a *loooooooooooooooong* way off from getting to level 8. (..Note that I have *not* been using other characters with this party.)

Worse - many of the mobs seem to be virtually immune to Web. Grease seems to work well, but it doesn't last long, and the tougher opponents have gobs of hit-points. The *best* defensive spell so far has been Sleep of all things. It seems to work for 1-in-3 opponents, has a large coverage area, and those it effects are ripe for coup de gra's.

Summons are pretty much SOP for this build - they distract opponents and allow for Sneak Attacks, the problem is that they have low AC and low hit points and consequently die pretty quickly.

Of course running around like a chicken with its head cut-off is pretty much the last resort (with others taking sneak attack pot-shots at the pursuer) in a tough spot, and unfortunately those "tough spots" are all to common.:speech:

The real "kicker" to all this is that spell-casting/resting is every bit as difficult as I hoped it would be. Getting a nap is TOUGH! And without those pitiful few spells my party is *weak* (..currently anyway).

I'm hoping it will get better for my party by level 6 (..which I'm close to). At that point I have Assassins with the paralysis feature.

The saving grace to the build is that the party pretty much *rocks* when presented with a very diverse grouping of dialogue skill checks and additional overland map checks. I've gotten Diplomacy, Intimidate, Appraise, Spot/Listen, Hide/Move Silently, Search, Spellcraft and Lore checks.

Still..:

DEFINITELY NOT A GROUP BUILD FOR BEGINNERS!

(I've been thinking about such a build to post here though.)

Anyway..

The basic idea is to do some "power" leveling to get the party into HIPS territory.

Interestingly:

Random encounters on the overland map provide decent "returns" as follows:

1. Lower level opponents than you (say DC 4 when you have 5th level characters), are NOT good for experience points (generally). What they *can* be good for is if they are humanoid-types like Orcs, if so they usually leave enough cash to pay for your next vist to the Inn (..to take a nap).

2. Opponets higher in level than you ARE good for experience points. Not really the exp. per opponent, but rather the exp. you get for the battle once you leave the battlefield.

Utilizing both (usually hitting group 1 first and then going after group 2 following-up with a trip back to the inn for a nap), *can* be a viable way to do some leveling.

ONE CRITICAL POINT:

(..in an encounter on the overland map) - MAKE SURE YOUR LEADER HAS AT LEAST net 5 points in *INTIMIDATE*. (presumably more at higher levels.) Basically it gives you the option to "Parlay" - at which point you use the Intimidate dialogue check. When it works it not only seems to effect opponent AC (lowering it), but more importantly it sometimes seems to effect the number of opponents (reducing them). (note that while you don't get the exp. points for the additional kills - you still get the far larger exp. points for clearing the field of battle.) Occasionally it will also hold-up some of the group for the initial attack so you aren't hit en-mass. IMO its a *must have* feature.

[Mz_Trixter]

Here's another tactic I've been using lately thats actually worked very well for me It requires atleast 1 character with high intimidation though.

> High Intimidation score - before running into a fight.
> Grease (very easy to come by)
> Darkness Spell (from casters OR racial bonus)
> Range fighters/casters & a couple summons to keep the attackers occupied.
> Web or Entangle helps if you have 'em. And Spike Growth's also a plus.

Here's how I've been using 'em though.
Parley > Intimidate (or Bluff, if you're quick) - battle screen - cast Grease (where they stand) followed by Darkness.
Then set some summons on 'em so they 'stay'.
Anyone you have ranged, keep them back. Fighters & rogues, enjoy the FREE sneak attacks! :laugh:

**Spoiler**

Spoiler

Also, the quest involving the 'black market' (optional fight) was my HARDEST fight by far.
Very hard to get 'Immune to mind-spell' items!

**Spoiler**

Right when I got those spells I been trying it out. So this should be useful for low levels.
This isn't a one size fits all though, so if you needa change (I had to sometimes) do it.

[Rockstarzc91]

This is for the guy asking about Wildshape. Yes it does take awhile for Wildshape to be worth it. But it does get good before 12th level, around 10? Maybe? When you use regular Wildshape it makes you a dire animal. And if you have natural spell. Then well. A dire bear throwing around lightening. That speaks for itself. Also in epic levels I believe you get the Dragon shape and Dragon companion feats. Nice.

[Claudius]

Scott I was reading your description of the overland map....wanting to set traps. Will you be able to set traps once you get SD? Does the overland map morph to a regular map during an encounter I guess is my question. Or do you conduct combat on the overland map? Multiclassing is rough on character power until the base class gets enough power to thrive. Especially with casters.

Edit: I'll be excited to play this game eventually. First I want to complete each mastery in titanquest: 9 runs through normal mode. And complete Witcher. And make a run through MoTB with my Barb 20/DC 4/FZ 2/BG4 (drow).

Another question: How does the parley work with non-humanoids? I assume you cannot parley with wolves or what not.

[Mz_Trixter]

Scott I was reading your description of the overland map....wanting to set traps. Will you be able to set traps once you get SD? Does the overland map morph to a regular map during an encounter I guess is my question. Or do you conduct combat on the overland map? Multiclassing is rough on character power until the base class gets enough power to thrive. Especially with casters.

Yeah it shifts from overland map to how it was originally in Nwn2, Nx1 when in battle.

Another question: How does the parley work with non-humanoids? I assume you cannot parley with wolves or what not.

'If they don't go running at you first', then if you have any character with diplomacy - Parley allows you to Bluff, Intimidate or Bribe 'em to leave you alone (I always fight) But when the Parley option's listed, you 'may' also have the option to evade if it rolls in your favor. If not, they'll stalk you & fight.

[Claudius]

what do the wolves and non-humanoids do with the money you bribe them with?:laugh:

[Scottg]

what do the wolves and non-humanoids do with the money you bribe them with?:laugh:

No bribes on several types of opponents.

However Druids can open up dialogue with animals.

BTW, I was wrong about the Intimidate lower AC, it doesn't - but Bluff does. Still, most of the time you want fewer opponents, so Intimidate is the biz..

Update..

I've been testing through with a "beginner" level party, and its *so* much easier it hurts (..them, not me:mischief . I'll probably side-line the Stealth party for this newer easier party.

EX.. First fight in-game; results at end:

A. Stealth party - no spells left, 3 of 4 hurt bad. Had to reload several times. Only one survivor of the support group - also hurt bad. Had to use a few potions (no healing kits).

B. "Beginner" party - 2 of 4 with minor damage. No reloads. NONE of the support group was killed, most had little or no damage. Saved all the potions and healing kits. (..one of the 3 characters wasn't even used, just had him stand in the rear with "hide" on.)

There are several prob.s with the Stealth party and this game:

Most opponents have good spot/listen, they seem to be immune to several mobility disabling spells, many have fast movement (i.e. can run you down), and of course they are usually in "mobs". Not good for a HIPS party.

Once I've finalized the newer party I'll post it on the forum with a link to it here.

[Claudius]

Is it useful to have skills distributed amongst 4 characters?

Or since only one character can use skills on the overland map should you just have a skill monkey you use for that run through? Or can you switch rapidly between party members so you can check for ruins with your lore character then rapidly switch to your ranger to check where the monsters went? Etcetra

[Scottg]

Is it useful to have skills distributed amongst 4 characters?

Or since only one character can use skills on the overland map should you just have a skill monkey you use for that run through? Or can you switch rapidly between party members so you can check for ruins with your lore character then rapidly switch to your ranger to check where the monsters went? Etcetra

They got it right - it works on the overland map as well.

You no longer need one character that does it all - or even does most of it all (..as I presumed initially with dialogue). Characters can now be as specialized as they should be. It also means that several planned builds no longer need the feat Able learner to "squeeze-out" those additional skills.

Mechanically:

When you get a dialogue encounter it shows all of your party members mini-portraits. If one of the member's portrait has a little "thought bubble" that pops-up on it, then that member has additional options for the conversation. (..clicking on the portrait shows their options for response.) You do only get to choose one dialogue though, so if you like the Intimidate dialogue from one person better than the Diplomacy dialogue from another then you choose the Intimidate choice and loose access to the Diplomacy choice. The "check" seems to be "transparent" - if you have a "bubble" then you have the choice and *presumably* it always works. (i.e. just getting the choice means it works, at least from what I've seen.)

Because of this you now have all kinds of different choices (..depending on the encounter). Spellcraft, Lore, Alchemy,etc..

Just learned something else..

When you are on the overland map, you can choose to use another member of your party as the overland map persona. When you do this it takes on its own particular qualities (rather than your leaders). For instance one of my characters has very high stealth - and he has the ability to evade opponents, and is far less likely to be spotted by hostiles. Likewise my Leader has high craft trap skill - and recently had multiple trap debris (to be turned into devices) that spawned.