Can We All Agree That Improved Haste is...

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:38 am

RPGguy wrote:Arrows of Dispelling and Carsomyr are extremely effective, no doubt...with anything. Very 'uber-ific'

Which is my point.

There are several "uber-ific" spells and effect-based items that either cast or counter casts, so that no matter how incredible one (such as IH) looks in isolation, it can be gotten rid of with thought. So that a really effective strategy isn't based on X being worshiped as the greatest spell, but that "X, Y, and Z in combination against these specific enemies can wipe the floor with them." I would suggest with respect that nuance counts, here.

RPGguy · Post by **RPGguy** » Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:21 pm

Stworca wrote:However BG2 is a game where no spell other than dispell magic or breach is essential.

My last game...over 11,000,000 XP (yes, I removed the level cap), not once did I use Dispel Magic. No Carsomyr. No Arrows of Dispelling. No item or piece of equipment with dispel-ability built into it. Never memorized it even once. No problems at all without it.

Or are you using the term 'Dispel Magic' as a catch-all for all of the spells in that family?

Breach on the other hand, I agree there. That's definitely a must-have. When you fire Breach, you know for certain that something is going to drop.

RPGguy · Post by **RPGguy** » Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:51 pm

fable wrote:Which is my point. There are several "uber-ific" spells and effect-based items that either cast or counter casts, so that no matter how incredible one (such as IH) looks in isolation, it can be gotten rid of with thought. So that a really effective strategy isn't based on X being worshiped as the greatest spell, but that "X, Y, and Z in combination against these specific enemies can wipe the floor with them." I would suggest with respect that nuance counts, here.

I just feel the urge to lump that particular spell into the pile of 'cheese' with Carsomyr, the Staff of the Magi, Shield of Balduran because it is such a dramatic game changer.

I've tried other ways, so let me try this approach. A fighter trains all his hard-working BG life...ascends in levels, develops his Grand Masteries. He/she starts with 1 attack per round and with lifelong progression, he can achieve 3 attacks per round. That is the max he can achieve without equipment. Then, whoosh! Fire off a cheap LVL 6 spell and he goes from 3 to 6 attacks per round, regenerates twices as fast and moves twice as fast.
A lifetime of progression dwarfed in six-tenths of a round. It's not the end-all-be-all but it is extremely powerful and a significant battle-changer IMO.

G3 has 'Tweaks' to remove arrows of dispelling from the game, to remove the Robe of Vecna and nerf the Staff of the Magi down a bit (not sure whether they have something to tone down Carsomyr...have to check on that). IH falls into the same category IMO as a LVL 6 spell with no apparent costs or disadvantages.

Stworca · Post by **Stworca** » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:32 pm

RPGguy wrote:Or are you using the term 'Dispel Magic' as a catch-all for all of the spells in that family?

All of them.

And you can beat the entire game without any spells, but that doesn't mean an average player will

(mainly because its very time consuming, and not rewarding at all. BG2 is great BECAUSE of the spells it has)

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:45 pm

RPGguy wrote:I just feel the urge to lump that particular spell into the pile of 'cheese' with Carsomyr, the Staff of the Magi

I guess you aren't a p&p 1st/2nd edition AD&D player, 'cos believe it or not, those items already are nerfed in BG2.

Which particular spell were you referring to by the way? Improved haste or the remove/dispel magic?

RPGguy wrote:He/she starts with 1 attack per round and with lifelong progression, he can achieve 3 attacks per round.

You seem to be forgetting Whirlwind and Greater Whirlwind, and don't ignore the power of Deathblow/Greater Deathblow and the other HLAs.

RPGguy · Post by **RPGguy** » Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:27 pm

galraen wrote:I guess you aren't a p&p 1st/2nd edition AD&D player, 'cos believe it or not, those items already are nerfed in BG2.

galraen, let me tell ya...I'm 38 and I'd love nothing more that to find some buds and play the 2nd edition pen and paper variety.

Growing up, I was overly focused on other things. I missed out on the D&D the first time around. I found my inner 'geek' at age 32 and have been loving it! But it's hard at this age to find people not swamped with kids and 'keeping up with the joneses'...who can invest that kind of time.

Edar Macilrille · Post by **Edar Macilrille** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:43 pm

Tactics and SCS II enemies are better at dispelling your magic and use buffs themselves. I can say no more without spoiling your experience of them when you do eventually try them, which you should and will. SCS II is best, but there are "interesting" aspects in Tactics, I really like the generic group of high lvl bounty-hunters it includes.

Anyway, going Off Topic (sorry)
RPGGuy, my group play every Thursday with two alternating campaigns taking turns. With a four-year break we have done so together since 1996. Check these:
Jan
[url="http://brookehurst.blogspot.com/"]Rocketman[/url] Pulp mid-late 30-ies wargame and roleplaying
[url="http://takshendal.blogspot.com/"]Takshendal[/url] + [url="http://darkmarches.blogspot.com/"]followup[/url], more to come. Rennaissance-inspired Fantasy with no magic.
[url="http://schwartzekreutzbruderschafft.blogspot.com/"]The Brotherhood of the Black Cross[/url]. High-Late Middle Age Teutonic Knights, a connection to "Rocketman".

Oleg:
[url="http://dogstar-campaign.blogspot.com/"]Dogstar[/url] Dark low fantasy-gone-steampunk.

Tracey:
[url="http://cthain.blogspot.com/"]C'Thain[/url] High fantasy set in a universe very inspired by Forgotten Realms' early incarnation (there is a Raven's Bluff which is basically the same fx).

Me:
[url="http://turbator.blogspot.com/"]Turbator Germanium[/url]. Roleplaying campaign set in Rome and Cimbria Chersonesos and starting 47 BC.

I played since 1986, run campaigns in, MERP, Rolemaster, Shadowrun, Flint-Zacharov (they are virtually identical), Skirmish, lots others tried.
Rasmus played since about 1990 I think.
Jan played since late 80-ies
Tracey played since 1978, Sword and Sorcery, D & D, made her own system (Flint).
Oleg played since at least 1976, pre-sword and sorcery, Sword & Sorcery. Made the Zacharov System, Skirmish, Bayonet, Bayonet+ and Bayonet++

RPGguy · Post by **RPGguy** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:58 pm

I appreciate the detail and, of course, the offer...but I am interested in the Dungeons and DragonsTM product if anything, mainly because I have some familiarity with it. And obviously I dig the genre.

Very cool however that you guys have been going strong for so long.

Edar Macilrille · Post by **Edar Macilrille** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:34 pm

Have a look at Jan' stuff anyway, it is superb and you will go green from envy- it is St Patrick's Day anyway, green will suit it.
I have done campaigns in Middle Earth, and am running a modified-Rolemaster solo campaign for Rasmus around Baldur's Gate a few years after <CHARNAME> cleaned it out and bandits has returned. Like you he had a craving for High Fantasy with lots of magic that did not get fulfilled with the running campaigns. It does not as of yet have a blog, but might get one soon.

jouke1988 · Post by **jouke1988** » Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:43 am

I agree with the statement only for a part. I just finished BG2 ToB and played it all without using Improved Hast once. However, I did use (Greater) Wirlwind in the final battle so I used something that lookes like it.

I think not only hast is very important, most of the big battles you have to fight can be won or lost by timing.