Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition

Thylein · Post by **Thylein** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:48 pm

Dynaheir's death was something that wasn't worked with enough in my opinion. A quest or a bit more talk about it would have been nice. Especially after all the trouble we had to go through to save her. I really hope that the content they want to add will put a bit more focus on this.

My personal favorite would be the possibility to keep Edwina... Such a permanent pissed off character and then something like this happens. Nearly suffocated on a slice of cake during his quest.

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:46 pm

At the end of BG1 when Sarevok is dead the game doesn't stop.

Which is how they handled it in BG Trilogy, which is why I prefer that over Tutu. Of course they were constrained by all the living dead in SoA, but at least if Jaheira and Minsc are killed in BG1 they don't miraculously come back from the dead.

Amanthor · Post by **Amanthor** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:13 pm

galraen wrote:Which is how they handled it in BG Trilogy, which is why I prefer that over Tutu. Of course they were constrained by all the living dead in SoA, but at least if Jaheira and Minsc are killed in BG1 they don't miraculously come back from the dead.

Exactly. Which is also why I prefer BGT over Tutu. But BGT doesn't have the option to add the original interface like Tutu (not that big of deal, but still

.)

Philos · Post by **Philos** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:07 pm

Quote by galraen:

apart from two fatalities at the hands of Irenicus

Obviously Khalid, but who is the second?
Is it Dynaheir? I thought she was supposedly killed by Edwin.

AzL0n · Post by **AzL0n** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:31 pm

Amanthor wrote:No, just no. They will never cut out the old NPCs and if they did I'm not sure I'd buy the product.

Here's an alternate way of solving the smooth transition:

At the end of BG1 when Sarevok is dead the game doesn't stop. You'll go back up to the city, you're the hero, yadda yadda yadda. So, you go on a one last quest but a fixed set of NPCs would decline to come with you, they want to pursue their own destiny and what not. Some will come with you such the classic set up Minsc, Dynaheir, Jaheira, Khalid, Imoen. Viconia and Edwin would probably leave only to meet you again in BG2.

The devs basically pick and choose who they want to be eligible for the starting dungeon in BG2, and if the party members in your group at the end of BG1 are, then they'll come with you.

You would not finish this final quest in BG1, but instead be kidnapped by Irenicus' lackeys midway.

Ha! No need to throw away our beloved NPCs in BG1.

Fair enough. But the thing I'm saying is, there are 25 NPC's in Baldur's gate 1, it would be incredibly difficult to make lines and personal quests for all of them. I'd rather them focus on quality than quantity. And as I was saying, some of those NPC's were a little bit lame and some of them would be kind of awkward if the two games were merged. Am I really supposed to believe that that many number of NPC's made it to Amn in the last few days? Like Quayle, Garrick, Faldorn etc...
Just out of curiosity though, if only say 10 of those NPC's were elligible for BG2, which ones would you want it to be?

Amanthor · Post by **Amanthor** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:11 pm

AzL0n wrote:Just out of curiosity though, if only say 10 of those NPC's were elligible for BG2, which ones would you want it to be?

Apart from those who are already available? It's a bit of dilemma because there are quite a few NPCs whom you meet again in BG2 and bringing them with you from BG1 would probably break their quests; to be specific those NPCs are: Coran, Edwin (it would be preferable if he left the group before finishing BG1), Faldorn, Garrick (minor though), Montaron, Qualye (he's Aerie's "uncle" in BG2, right?), Tiax, Xzar and Viconia (her dialogue/romance probably references her captors and doesn't make for a smooth BG1->BG2 transition).

We already have Jaheira, Minsc and Imoen, Khalid and Dynaheir die (we can't change that for obvious reasons, dialogue consistency etc.).

So we are left with not all that many options. I'm thinking Ajantis, Alora (buffed, she's s***t tier but I like her persona), Kivan, Xan, Eldoth, Skie, Branwen, Yeslick. Maybe have Skie or Eldoth die in Irenicus' dungeon; Eldoth rather than Skie because BG2 is sorely lacking in pure thieves (we all know what happens to Yoshimo.)

AzL0n · Post by **AzL0n** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:52 pm

Amanthor wrote:Apart from those who are already available? It's a bit of dilemma because there are quite a few NPCs whom you meet again in BG2 and bringing them with you from BG1 would probably break their quests; to be specific those NPCs are: Coran, Edwin (it would be preferable if he left the group before finishing BG1), Faldorn, Garrick (minor though), Montaron, Qualye (he's Aerie's "uncle" in BG2, right?), Tiax, Xzar and Viconia (her dialogue/romance probably references her captors and doesn't make for a smooth BG1->BG2 transition).

We already have Jaheira, Minsc and Imoen, Khalid and Dynaheir die (we can't change that for obvious reasons, dialogue consistency etc.).

So we are left with not all that many options. I'm thinking Ajantis, Alora (buffed, she's s***t tier but I like her persona), Kivan, Xan, Eldoth, Skie, Branwen, Yeslick. Maybe have Skie or Eldoth die in Irenicus' dungeon; Eldoth rather than Skie because BG2 is sorely lacking in pure thieves (we all know what happens to Yoshimo.)

I don't think it would matter too much that some characters appear in BG2 they would only have to change it up. Like they can easily change Garrick's name in the temple district if they wanted to have him available all through BG1 and 2, likewise they could do so with Faldorn and Quayle but do we really care that much about playing those characters? Obviously we all have our favorites, I don't care for Alora and Branwen but like you I loved Ajantis, Kivan, Xan and Eldoth. Ultimately it'll be the devs choice I guess... we can only hope that our favorites from BG1 will be playable through BG2 and that they turn them all into more compelling characters with more interactions and quests and such.

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:30 am

It really shouldn't be too difficult to transfer the party you finish with in BG to SoA. There is only one meaningful quest for a BG NPC, and any of the NPCs from BG could be a Harper, after all as we find out in SoA the Harpers don't have any qualms about having evil characters in their ranks. Just a matter of using variables and alternative voice files.

Although we never see Dynaheir's body I thought Minsc mentions dear Jon murdering her in front of him; could be wrong, even when I release the psychopath I race through his dialogue and send him on his way (except for one run through). He certainly has no meaningful SoA quest attached to him.

I wonder if they'll return to their original plans to bump off Imoen in Spellhold? I never really understood why they back tracked on that at the last minute.

Making Yoshimo resurrectable as well as redeemable would be cool too, after all if you have a wand of ressurection, which is quite likely, you should be able to, and there is a temple in Brynlaw (sp?).

Characters I'd like to see content for (as a joinable NPC) are:

Branwen, Kivan, Kagain, Yeslick, Xan, Ajantis, Safana, Shar-Teel and Tiax.

Some of these should be fairly easy to implement:

Branwen and Xan appear in the Tutorial but are mysteriously absent from the game proper, never understood that.

Korgan is really Kagain in disguise and Tiax should be with you and taken to Spellhold at the same time as Imoen if he's in the final party, that's such a glaring omission someone should be shot for it.

Raising Xzar from the dead after the Harper sub-plot should be an obvious option too, then being able to wreak vengeance on the Harpers, as long as Jaheira isn't in the party. Even if she is a confrontation with her over the issue and having to choose between her and Xzar, her having a choice between you and her erstwhile allies should be an option (the latter option of course is already in the game).

Quayle on the other hand is really screwed up by Bioware. Somehow at the same time as he was adventuring with you he was running a circus and raising Aerie, did no one at Bioware spot the ridiculous paradox?

AzL0n · Post by **AzL0n** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:49 pm

galraen wrote:It really shouldn't be too difficult to transfer the party you finish with in BG to SoA. There is only one meaningful quest for a BG NPC, and any of the NPCs from BG could be a Harper, after all as we find out in SoA the Harpers don't have any qualms about having evil characters in their ranks. Just a matter of using variables and alternative voice files.

It wouldn't be difficult if they did it like that but I really want them to do this well. I don't want anybody else to be a Harper it would just be a cheap cop out to be lazy and not come up with original material. Also I really hope they get the original voice actors back in the game. I don't know how likely that is to happen to happen though...

galraen wrote: Although we never see Dynaheir's body I thought Minsc mentions dear Jon murdering her in front of him; could be wrong, even when I release the psychopath I race through his dialogue and send him on his way (except for one run through). He certainly has no meaningful SoA quest attached to him.

Yeah they should have given him at least one quest.

galraen wrote: I wonder if they'll return to their original plans to bump off Imoen in Spellhold? I never really understood why they back tracked on that at the last minute.

What do you mean bump off?

galraen wrote: Making Yoshimo resurrectable as well as redeemable would be cool too, after all if you have a wand of ressurection, which is quite likely, you should be able to, and there is a temple in Brynlaw (sp?).

That'd be cool but of course the idea behind Yoshimo was to have a replacement for Imoen until she got back.

galraen wrote:Characters I'd like to see content for (as a joinable NPC) are:

Branwen, Kivan, Kagain, Yeslick, Xan, Ajantis, Safana, Shar-Teel and Tiax.

I was thinking it would be cool to have Safana as an assassin, she'd be the only one in all BGs. Kivan should be turned into an archer obviously.

galraen wrote:Branwen and Xan appear in the Tutorial but are mysteriously absent from the game proper, never understood that.

Xan at least should be in there and be made more interesting. I don't know what they could do with Branwen.

galraen wrote: Korgan is really Kagain in disguise and Tiax should be with you and taken to Spellhold at the same time as Imoen if he's in the final party, that's such a glaring omission someone should be shot for it.

They made Korgan really interesting in SoA though. If you had Mazzy along he would have really revealing conversations with her where he would show his non psychopatic side. Also he was disgusted by the slavers for taking children. He was also a berserker which is more interesting to me than a plain fighter who only cares about money. That's why if the two games are merged I wouldn't cry to see Kagain go.

galraen wrote: Raising Xzar from the dead after the Harper sub-plot should be an obvious option too, then being able to wreak vengeance on the Harpers, as long as Jaheira isn't in the party. Even if she is a confrontation with her over the issue and having to choose between her and Xzar, her having a choice between you and her erstwhile allies should be an option (the latter option of course is already in the game).

I'd prefer them just modifying the quest so that you can have Xzart from the beginning of the prison but Monty could be missing. I guess he could be found dead at some point to go with the concept that every pairs are cut in half at the beginning of SoA.

galraen wrote: Quayle on the other hand is really screwed up by Bioware. Somehow at the same time as he was adventuring with you he was running a circus and raising Aerie, did no one at Bioware spot the ridiculous paradox?

Yeah that wasn't the place to make another call back to BG1... it was just stupid. Besides Quayle wasn't like himself at all in SoA. They can just change the name.

Amanthor · Post by **Amanthor** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:37 pm

AzL0n wrote:What do you mean bump [Imoen] off?

BioWare originally intended to have Imoen turn permanently into the Slayer, and ravaging Suldanessellar IIRC, essentially having her killed (by the hands of the PC). Can't find any info on this so I'm just quoting it from the top of my head.

Please someone correct me if I'm wrong.

AzL0n · Post by **AzL0n** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:32 pm

Amanthor wrote:BioWare originally intended to have Imoen turn permanently into the Slayer, and ravaging Suldanessellar IIRC, essentially having her killed (by the hands of the PC). Can't find any info on this so I'm just quoting it from the top of my head.

Please someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Holy sh*t! That's freaking epic. I'd never heard of that plan. It's pretty sad though, poor Imy's been through so much already ;p

Garriath · Post by **Garriath** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:07 pm

AzL0n wrote:Holy sh*t! That's freaking epic. I'd never heard of that plan. It's pretty sad though, poor Imy's been through so much already ;p

Yeah, I'm actually really glad that they didn't follow through. Spending all that energy throughout chapters 1-4 to rescue her only to have her turn into a demon would have been a major let-down. I'd also really argue that it's out of Baldur's Gate II's style: BG2 is not dark fantasy. It has darker elements, but they generally only exist to reinforce the fairly ham-handed (yet nevertheless stalwart) good-evil dynamic that D&D enforces.

This is one change I hope they don't make in the Extended Edition.

Garriath · Post by **Garriath** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:48 pm

Please forgive the double-post, but I figured it was justified in veering the conversation to a different topic.

I'm a little worried about some of the stuff we've been hearing, specifically,

Buck wrote:our old BG1 and BG2 save games should work in the Enhanced Editions.

There are no current plans to add new VO for the old characters.

The new content that Beamdog/Overhaul Games is adding to the series can be ignored if you'd rather only play through the content we've all come to know by heart over the years.

This really does suggest that the actual updates to the game's content are going to be fairly minimal, and makes me ask myself what the Enhanced Edition will do better than my current heavily modded BG1 Tutu.

That said, I look forward to being proven wrong with the screenshots released tomorrow.

PS: For those of you who reported having difficulties installing Tutu, try Easytutu now. I installed it about two weeks ago, and it took less than a dozen clicks of the mouse.

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:17 pm

I've never heard about Imoen turning into the slayer in Suldanessellar before; I was lead to believe that she died in Spellhold as a result of the soul transfer to Bohdi.

I never was that fond of Imoen anyway, but that's beside the point. Because they changed their minds about her fate at the last minute, her dialogue after Spellhold is almost non-existent (some mods have dealt with this). I actually think that whilst many may have been disappointed at failing to rescue Imoen, it would have added a lot of depth to the story, and given the protagonist even more impetus to deal with the evil slime ball that is Irenicus.

The people I have trouble understanding are the ones who want to reincarnate Irenicus and have him join the party. I can't understand even an evil protagonist wanting to do that, well, apart from having the satisfaction of slowly killing him all over again.

Garriath · Post by **Garriath** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:04 pm

Oh, come on. Irenicus is an incredibly powerful mage, and one of the most fascinating characters written for a game. How is wanting him as a party member worse than wanting Sarevok? I can't really call Irenicus more evil.

doady · Post by **doady** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:48 pm

DRMed crap. Not going to bother with this. Other than vastly improved AI pathfinding and the rerendering of all backgrounds and sprites for high resolutions (which seems doubtful), there's not many ways Baldur's Gate can actually be improved.

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:00 am

Garriath wrote:Oh, come on. Irenicus is an incredibly powerful mage, and one of the most fascinating characters written for a game. How is wanting him as a party member worse than wanting Sarevok? I can't really call Irenicus more evil.

He's also a psychotic, power hungry maniac who would turn on you and destroy you at the first opportunity. Not unlike Sarevok in some ways, (and I never allow him to escape from the Abyss either), but unlike Sarevok there's no doubt at all that redemption is way beyond him.

I can understand evil protagonists being willing to risk making use of Sarevok, but they'd have to be suicidal to consort with Irenicus. Fascinating? Sure, in the same way that a King Cobra is fascinating just before it strikes!

Can anyone conceive of an evil protagonist actually befriending a guy who has stolen their soul and come very close to killing them;after imprisoning and torturing them? I cannot think of one evil figure from history that wouldn't have taken great pleasure in giving him the same, or even worse, treatment.

"Hey, Temujin, we've captured the guy who imprisoned amd tortured you, tried to steal your soul, what should we do with him?"

"Oh he's a fascinating dude, give him weapons and give him a hoard to command!" Yeah, right!

Amanthor · Post by **Amanthor** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:39 am

galraen wrote:The people I have trouble understanding are the ones who want to reincarnate Irenicus and have him join the party. I can't understand even an evil protagonist wanting to do that, well, apart from having the satisfaction of slowly killing him all over again.

What. Is it really that hard to understand? Like Garriath said, he's one of the most fascinating characters in gaming history.

Have you played The Longer Road mod? It tackles these problems you mentioned quite well.

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:09 am

Amanthor wrote:What. Is it really that hard to understand? Like Garriath said, he's one of the most fascinating characters in gaming history.

Have you played The Longer Road mod? It tackles these problems you mentioned quite well.

Yes it is hard to understand. The devil may be fascinating if you're of that frame of mind, but no way I'd want him in the party. Personally I don't find psychotic psychopaths fascinating, I found the scumbag utterly repulsive as a good character, and far too much of a threat, apart from wanting revenge, as an evil player.

Would you have saved Hitler's life and allied with him at the end of the second world war?

Garriath · Post by **Garriath** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:57 am

galraen wrote:Would you have saved Hitler's life and allied with him at the end of the second world war?

If I were fighting to save the world from the return of the dead god of murder, why, yes, I think I'd have taken any help I could get. Especially if I could have control over what Hitler did, and could ensure he'd not return to his evil acts, and that he'd receive his due judgment when all this was sorted out, yes, I'd absolutely bring him along. Greater good, and all that.