Ah yes, the +1 Dodge bonus to Armour Class, yes indeed, I have used and liked that one, that's one I have already recommended even though I didn't list the exact name of it.
As I said, I'm not at all familiar with Bards, so, yes, you don't 'need' Saving Throws with Bard Song, but, then again, the Cleric spells of Prayer and Recitation, which do stack (if I remember correctly and aren't muddling with IWD1) to combine +3 to all Saves (or was it Protection From Evil in IWD2), so there's lots of ways to boost your saves. I'm not sure where you get your idea that you need 40 extra points in Fortitude Saves to permit 3 instead of 5 characters being stunned, that seems a bit bizzare - if Saves were so useless you wouldn't recommend Bard Song as such a great Feat. Saves are a 20 sided dice roll are they not, so each point gives you 5% more resistance to spells does it not? You can't be fully resistant as you can still roll a 1 but having 13 rather than 11 points in a Save as your base Save has to be beneficial as it takes you closer and closer almost total immunity (or guaranteed half-damage) from most of the game's spell/trap attacks because once you add your buffs being at 17 is a lot better than being at 15, as in, a very noticeable difference.
I've no doubt you'll pick up some random point that I've explained non-uber-perfectly and ignore all the points where I got it right and do 10 paragraphs about something or other, but I think you know full well what I'm talking about. Anyway, I'm not going to be around for a bit, so don't wait on a post, Gamebanshee wont log me out for some reason so even if the site says I'm here, I'm likely not! If the reply isn't utterly twisty I'll get back when I get back!
New Player - thoughts on IDW 2 overall story line + role playing
My calculation was that 1 feat improves the fortitude saves for one character by 10 percent so you can expect 0.1 characters less failing their saving throw. For 2 characters less to fail their fortitude save you need 20 feats since 20*0.1=2.
Having 17 instead of 15 in one of the 3 saving throw bonuses of course looks better, but the benefits are minimal, for a save DC of 16 or lower (or above 36) there's no difference at all.
Let's assume every character has to make 15 saving throw rolls during the game (many don't have to be made and you also get immunities from equipment or spells), that's about 5 in each category, in at most 4 of them the save DC is in a range where a bonus would matter.
One great fortitude feat improves the chance to save by 0.1, so you can expect to make a total of 0.4 more saves during the whole game, probably you'll never benefit from it.
Other feats will help more.
Having 17 instead of 15 in one of the 3 saving throw bonuses of course looks better, but the benefits are minimal, for a save DC of 16 or lower (or above 36) there's no difference at all.
Let's assume every character has to make 15 saving throw rolls during the game (many don't have to be made and you also get immunities from equipment or spells), that's about 5 in each category, in at most 4 of them the save DC is in a range where a bonus would matter.
One great fortitude feat improves the chance to save by 0.1, so you can expect to make a total of 0.4 more saves during the whole game, probably you'll never benefit from it.
Other feats will help more.
Lets test this.
Lets say 6 party members need 11-20. to save.
That means the average that happens on that attack is 3 party members stunned.
Now if they have 20 +2 to saves that is a total of 40 to saves.
So lets make it simple and omit need of 1s as failures.
So we have 4 party members who have 0 chance of missing saving throw to consume all 40 to saves (4 x 10)
Ok so the remaining two have 11-20.
The result is that 20 saving throw skills raised 3 stunned to 1 stunned.
Conclusion is that kmonsters analysis makes sense when we break it down.
Still it really sucks when a character is charmed. No matter what party I bring out it seems the tank always gets dire charm just before the bugbear headquarters. Even a drow SR tank.
Lets say 6 party members need 11-20. to save.
That means the average that happens on that attack is 3 party members stunned.
Now if they have 20 +2 to saves that is a total of 40 to saves.
So lets make it simple and omit need of 1s as failures.
So we have 4 party members who have 0 chance of missing saving throw to consume all 40 to saves (4 x 10)
Ok so the remaining two have 11-20.
The result is that 20 saving throw skills raised 3 stunned to 1 stunned.
Conclusion is that kmonsters analysis makes sense when we break it down.
Still it really sucks when a character is charmed. No matter what party I bring out it seems the tank always gets dire charm just before the bugbear headquarters. Even a drow SR tank.
Right Speech has four aspects: 1. Not lying, but speaking the truth, 2. Avoiding rude and coarse words, but using gentle speech beneficial to the listener, 3. Not slandering, but promoting friendliness and unity, 4. Avoiding frivolous speech, but saying only what is appropriate and beneficial.
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LastDanceSaloon
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Well, unfortunately my 'experience' can't be backed up with evidence or supposition and is just my 'experience', but when I took a 'noob' party into the Orc cave (The screen after the cave with a large pack of Goblins in a big camp) I had all but one of my characters debilitated by the Orc Shamen waiting for you as you enter. When I took a 'min/max' party into this cave (to which I was min/maxing Saves as well), only one of them got debilitated by the Shamen.
Two points of interest from my paragraph - I'm now using the word 'debilitated' instead of 'stunned', which is what *I* meant when I used the word 'stunned'. I use 'stunned' as short-hand for anything which 'debilitates', though I have no doubt you are just referring to the specific of spells which specifically 'stun'. Now I know why you keep referring to just Fortitude Saves and the rather odd assumption that the game only provides 15 Save Points, you are probably recalling every Monster that uses a specific 'Stun' spell. As Claudius tries to allude to, there are many different and varied attacks which have a 'stun-like' or otherwise equally 'debilitating' effect which are not specifically called 'Stun' spells. Shall we go through each spell one-by-one? Or shall we accept a general term for 'debilitation'?
The other point is that, firstly, you recommend Bard Song as a great Feat which is Saves buff, but then go on to disparage Save Base increases as a waste. It just comes across as speaking at cross-purposes. The other odd thing about your approach is that on the one hand you promote min/maxing very aggressively, but don't apply this philosophy to Saving Throws, even though Saves are just another stat that ought to me min/maxed if you are truly min/maxing if the game permits it without losing out on another min/max benefit. I'm not sure where Dash fits into a min/maxing philosophy and Dash is most certainly neither a massive nor significant defense or attack buff.
Your calculations are interesting, but generally unnecessary. The game functions on the concept of dice rolls and chance, stats providing greater 'chance'. When I used the phrase "can mean the difference between 5 and 3 party members being stunned" I am also not using exact phraseology, I am using 'chance' philosophy, hence the use of the word "can". By raising Saves you 'increase' your 'can' potential. You have provided exact stats for a chance scenario. Also, each Monster in the game has a 'Spell Power' which is different from one Monster to the next. This 'tends' to rise upwards as you go through the game and by Maxing Saves from the start you keep well ahead of this - just as you keep ahead of Monster BAB by buying Full Plate at the start from the shop rather than wait for a drop.
The game instructions/manual/help-info even recommend you use Feats to help boost your weakest Save. It's one of those common-sense things. Well done on the math, you've pin-pointed one 100th of a post, taken a word or two, smashed the hell out of it for no real reason and generally out of context/meaning and made yourself look uber-brainy by writing 4 or 5 posts on something that other people would just pass over or 'take with a pinch of salt'.
I've no doubt it's very important for 'you' to 'prove' why taking Save Feats does NOT mean the difference between 5 and 3 party members being 'stunned' and I wish you well in your venture to prove this nano-point, but in my game, that's what happened, and I was speaking generally in chance philosophy, not exact and specific dictation.
Thanks. Happy posting
Two points of interest from my paragraph - I'm now using the word 'debilitated' instead of 'stunned', which is what *I* meant when I used the word 'stunned'. I use 'stunned' as short-hand for anything which 'debilitates', though I have no doubt you are just referring to the specific of spells which specifically 'stun'. Now I know why you keep referring to just Fortitude Saves and the rather odd assumption that the game only provides 15 Save Points, you are probably recalling every Monster that uses a specific 'Stun' spell. As Claudius tries to allude to, there are many different and varied attacks which have a 'stun-like' or otherwise equally 'debilitating' effect which are not specifically called 'Stun' spells. Shall we go through each spell one-by-one? Or shall we accept a general term for 'debilitation'?
The other point is that, firstly, you recommend Bard Song as a great Feat which is Saves buff, but then go on to disparage Save Base increases as a waste. It just comes across as speaking at cross-purposes. The other odd thing about your approach is that on the one hand you promote min/maxing very aggressively, but don't apply this philosophy to Saving Throws, even though Saves are just another stat that ought to me min/maxed if you are truly min/maxing if the game permits it without losing out on another min/max benefit. I'm not sure where Dash fits into a min/maxing philosophy and Dash is most certainly neither a massive nor significant defense or attack buff.
Your calculations are interesting, but generally unnecessary. The game functions on the concept of dice rolls and chance, stats providing greater 'chance'. When I used the phrase "can mean the difference between 5 and 3 party members being stunned" I am also not using exact phraseology, I am using 'chance' philosophy, hence the use of the word "can". By raising Saves you 'increase' your 'can' potential. You have provided exact stats for a chance scenario. Also, each Monster in the game has a 'Spell Power' which is different from one Monster to the next. This 'tends' to rise upwards as you go through the game and by Maxing Saves from the start you keep well ahead of this - just as you keep ahead of Monster BAB by buying Full Plate at the start from the shop rather than wait for a drop.
The game instructions/manual/help-info even recommend you use Feats to help boost your weakest Save. It's one of those common-sense things. Well done on the math, you've pin-pointed one 100th of a post, taken a word or two, smashed the hell out of it for no real reason and generally out of context/meaning and made yourself look uber-brainy by writing 4 or 5 posts on something that other people would just pass over or 'take with a pinch of salt'.
I've no doubt it's very important for 'you' to 'prove' why taking Save Feats does NOT mean the difference between 5 and 3 party members being 'stunned' and I wish you well in your venture to prove this nano-point, but in my game, that's what happened, and I was speaking generally in chance philosophy, not exact and specific dictation.
Thanks. Happy posting
I don't see anything wrong with both kmonster's & Claudius' analysis. It's correct and to the point.
Kmonster's point wasn't that saves are unimportant (nice attempt at strawmanning there), but that the same amount of resources can be spent more efficient, and the benefit of the Saving Throw feats can be attained in other ways. He used math to back this point up. His alternative of Bard Song is suggested because it provides the same benefit, with extra's, for the entire party and doesn't use so many resources.
Kmonster's point wasn't that saves are unimportant (nice attempt at strawmanning there), but that the same amount of resources can be spent more efficient, and the benefit of the Saving Throw feats can be attained in other ways. He used math to back this point up. His alternative of Bard Song is suggested because it provides the same benefit, with extra's, for the entire party and doesn't use so many resources.
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LastDanceSaloon
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magisensei1
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Wow, interesting chat about save feats versus other feats (attack). Not sure I totally followed all the math and philosophy behind the discussion but it was interesting to read nevertheless. My two cents to this discussion which is really only probably worth 0.005 of cent (not even a whole cent) is that as I was playing and fiddling around with the rogue / monk character and noticed something interesting - as a combined rogue/monk I have +2/+3 (in all save categories) better saves than if I was just a pure rogue or even a rogue/fighter. And as such if you wanted to get better saves wouldn't it be better to invest a level in monk (or a class with better saves that your character lacks) [yes this shouldn't be allowed as a monk should remain pure like a paladin but the 3e rules allow] since leveling is a lot faster than waiting for those save feats? And yes, some will argue about the efficiency of the character, spells and BAB as the character advances through the game but does 1 level of BAB or reaching 9th level spells or having 1 extra spell slot make a difference if you have magical spells/weapons/potions to buff your characters while in reverse there seems to be generally a lack of magical items in IWD2 that provides additional saves (I haven't found a single ring of protection that actually offers + on saves; and the amulets of protection that are sold are way outside my price range). My cleric has reached 5th level spells and while some of the spells have changed a lot remain the same in design although oddly my cleric has insect plague which in IWD1 was exclusively a druid spell (or I think it was) but besides some new buff spells I haven't noticed the amazing fire power some are saying that a cleric is supposed to have - maybe my cleric is still to low level to access them but in general the way I play a cleric is for healing and support rather than a tank so I guess the point of tanking a cleric is pretty moot for me.
My thoughts on the Bard song is that its great to have a bard a long for the journey since my characters got hit with fear and luckily my bard was able to use the anti-fear song so that everyone could continue to battle the good battle. A vote for bard song that helps with saves or negates a certain type of spell. But a funny note is that when my bard or character went to far from the other characters the 'fear' spell kicked back in - so it didn't really negate it or was the enemy spell-caster continually casting that spell - not really sure as it happen a few minutes apart during a heated battle. On a side-note bard spell casting, my bard no longer has to learn spells from scrolls (that's new) but the odd thing is, is that my bard wasn't given the choice of magic missile as a choice of 1st level spells - odd that.
On an off topic subject the cleric spell 'animate dead' with the 2.01 patch I thought it was supposed to be not so powerful anymore. My cleric at 7th level is summoning the giant skeleton monster that looks really scary and it made a lot of battles very easy too easy. Is it supposed to be this powerful this spell? On a side note about summoning spells in IWD2 - the spell no longer summons a bunch of monsters just one e.g. monster summoning 1 etc.
On the subject of 'feats' I gave my elf fighter the feat 'rapid shot' and I haven't noticed any rapid fire - its supposed to offer an extra attack for missile weapons (excluding crossbow) but it seems I still have only 2 attacks - which is what she has a fighter when doing melee.
As my team continues to push through chapter 2 - have you noticed that there is a lot of running around back and forth when you make deals with monsters. And the battle with the half-dragon took a very long time - lucky for me the characters meleeing with her weren't human. My only real complaint in chapter 2 so far has to do with lack of dialogue choices - I really wanted to save the High Priestess L? (one of the sisters that you could get to talk) but there wasn't enough choices to make her reconsider her choices.
My thoughts on the Bard song is that its great to have a bard a long for the journey since my characters got hit with fear and luckily my bard was able to use the anti-fear song so that everyone could continue to battle the good battle. A vote for bard song that helps with saves or negates a certain type of spell. But a funny note is that when my bard or character went to far from the other characters the 'fear' spell kicked back in - so it didn't really negate it or was the enemy spell-caster continually casting that spell - not really sure as it happen a few minutes apart during a heated battle. On a side-note bard spell casting, my bard no longer has to learn spells from scrolls (that's new) but the odd thing is, is that my bard wasn't given the choice of magic missile as a choice of 1st level spells - odd that.
On an off topic subject the cleric spell 'animate dead' with the 2.01 patch I thought it was supposed to be not so powerful anymore. My cleric at 7th level is summoning the giant skeleton monster that looks really scary and it made a lot of battles very easy too easy. Is it supposed to be this powerful this spell? On a side note about summoning spells in IWD2 - the spell no longer summons a bunch of monsters just one e.g. monster summoning 1 etc.
On the subject of 'feats' I gave my elf fighter the feat 'rapid shot' and I haven't noticed any rapid fire - its supposed to offer an extra attack for missile weapons (excluding crossbow) but it seems I still have only 2 attacks - which is what she has a fighter when doing melee.
As my team continues to push through chapter 2 - have you noticed that there is a lot of running around back and forth when you make deals with monsters. And the battle with the half-dragon took a very long time - lucky for me the characters meleeing with her weren't human. My only real complaint in chapter 2 so far has to do with lack of dialogue choices - I really wanted to save the High Priestess L? (one of the sisters that you could get to talk) but there wasn't enough choices to make her reconsider her choices.
Rapid Shot is activated. Check your special abilities.
Mutliclassing a lot gives great saves, as each class starts out with +2 in at least one category. However, you'll cripple your BAB & spells, as you said. As ever with D&D, spells rule the game.
The Monk "should" be pure, well... P&P is stricter in that.
Bards learn spells as they level, like Sorcerers do. They never have to learn it via scrolls. They have their own spell list and Magic Missile isn't on it. (It's via your Sorcerer levels.)
Mutliclassing a lot gives great saves, as each class starts out with +2 in at least one category. However, you'll cripple your BAB & spells, as you said. As ever with D&D, spells rule the game.
The Monk "should" be pure, well... P&P is stricter in that.
Bards learn spells as they level, like Sorcerers do. They never have to learn it via scrolls. They have their own spell list and Magic Missile isn't on it. (It's via your Sorcerer levels.)
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LastDanceSaloon
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Moot point: he should be singing a song whenever not casting spells.
And there we have the crux of conversing with a min/max'er - you have a Bard... you do it THIS way or you're doing it wrong, lol.
Anyway, excellent to see I've managed to free mag from the boards so he can play more game...
Yes, the Cleric summons in 2 are totally different to 1, you'll be popping out Greater Re-Inforced Flamethrowing Fire Boneguard King Skeletons before you know it, just sit back and watch the carnage!
No idea about dualing or multi'ing or Bard spell-range.
The amazing Cleric firepower kicks in quite soon. The first signs of excitement will be Flame-Strike, then from there it just gets better and better.
The equipment curve kicks in around the Ice-Temple stage, by the time you're back in the Severed Hand you'll be stuffed with items.
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And there we have the crux of conversing with a min/max'er - you have a Bard... you do it THIS way or you're doing it wrong, lol.Well, that's the idea behind optimisation. Be sure to reread our point, which was about ways to spend (feat)resource as efficient as possible and using a Bard for that, not about "Bards can only be used this way." No crow will land in this thread, with all the strawmen.
It boils down to putting the shiny, pointy part of the weapon in to the squishy bits of the bad guy. Holding the cutty part and clobbering the armoured parts of said bad guy with said sword's pommel works too, sure, and then you get these impressive scarred hands, and less of those annoying digits... (Come to think of it, that actually was a genuine technique against armoured opponents.)
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LastDanceSaloon
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I'm fully aware of the posts. I'm fully aware that you can take one quick phrase from a generalised non-specific long post and treat it as if it were exact fact that requires a team of specialists to deconstruct. You guys do what you do. That last post even reads like ones you find on political debate forums, all desultory metaphor and very little actual substance. Dudes, I can't possibly continue to post replies to a tag-team of uber dictatorial pedantics and I'm not going to try, I've said all I need to say on the subject. I'm happy to agree the math is sound even though I personally think it has very little value as a communicative tool for a new player and I wish you luck experimenting with your findings, I've relayed both my experience and what the actual game recommends, I can do no more and neither do I wish to do more. Are we at 50 posts yet?
I'm not against you LDS. I was just analyzing the problem at hand. The post (of yors) one up from your last I considered giving a 'like'. I like the save feats myself for the reason that it is like 'life insurance' or 'reloads insurance'.
Right Speech has four aspects: 1. Not lying, but speaking the truth, 2. Avoiding rude and coarse words, but using gentle speech beneficial to the listener, 3. Not slandering, but promoting friendliness and unity, 4. Avoiding frivolous speech, but saying only what is appropriate and beneficial.
Just another comment on bards.
Spoiler
You can take 1 level of Bard and that opens the door to a horn that summons 4 meat shields in one casting.
End Spoiler
I still wouldn't want to lose a sorceror level, but it is an effective trick. A bard1/fighter or barb could be a good character.
You'd also get a level 1 song.
Spoiler
You can take 1 level of Bard and that opens the door to a horn that summons 4 meat shields in one casting.
End Spoiler
I still wouldn't want to lose a sorceror level, but it is an effective trick. A bard1/fighter or barb could be a good character.
You'd also get a level 1 song.
Right Speech has four aspects: 1. Not lying, but speaking the truth, 2. Avoiding rude and coarse words, but using gentle speech beneficial to the listener, 3. Not slandering, but promoting friendliness and unity, 4. Avoiding frivolous speech, but saying only what is appropriate and beneficial.
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LastDanceSaloon
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