Attack on Afghanistan

Silur · Post by **Silur** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 1:19 pm

Originally posted by Yshania:
I work at Heathrow Airport. My office is directly beneath the landing path to Terminal 3. After hearing of another aircrash this morning (Milan Airport) and of a Saudi(?) plane making an emergency landing in Rome due to rumours/reports/scares that a bomb was on board, I watched every plane coming into land...I was worried

The crash in Milan cost more than 110 people their lives, and yet more families are struck with grief. Even though the SAS crash had nothing to do with terrorists, the fact that it happened now adds to the burden of sorrow in the world. Whether or not the flight that crashed into the Black sea was due to terrorism or not is as far as I can make out undetermined but unlikely, but yet another 76 people perished.

Even though many of these events are linked only by coincidence, the psychological effect of these repeated air-disasters is likely to make people much more reluctant to fly. That's bad for the airlines, sure, but whats worse is that people don't travel and meet other people and cultures. I believe that one of the major stabilizing factors in the world today is that people travel and see the world, because (at least my theory is that) it's much harder to shoot at people you've met.

I'm currently doing some work for an airport. I do a lot of technical stuff for them. One of the more important issues is that of physical access control to for instance the computer network. I can't believe how many hours I've spent emphasizing the importance of protecting not just the machines, but also cables and such (even today!). Security consciousness is very high among airport security personel, but the holistic view is somewhat lacking. Luckily, recent events are at least changing that for the better.

Anyhow, this _airline_ comes along like they own the place and *demand* access to controlled areas so they can build their own parallell network. Apparently they don't like the colour (or something) of the inhouse network... It's going to be a fun fight

. They'll most likely cancel all my frequent flyer points when we're done

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 2:37 pm

Originally posted by fable:
Brainwashing-by-media is not the sole perogative of government-controlled press...
We also regularly make important decisions that influence and elect politicians based on whomever has the most money to put behind the best advertising minds in the largest number of media venues. Where government doesn't rule the media, currency does. And since the media can be bought, it is simply available to the highest bidder, providing the same kind of "brainwashing" tactics that you complain about, above.

Whoah! Big difference, fable. In a nation where the government controls the media, the government controls the media. In a free nation, the media is free. They MAY pander to sources of money, or to public opinion, but that is their CHOICE in a free state. They are also perfectly free to state alternative views, and (perhaps) make less money. If the public is unwilling to look for those alternate sources, and to support them, then it was the CHOICE of the public to close their eyes to that viewpoint. But here, at least, we do not have our "leaders" telling us what we can and cannot talk about (print, televise, etc). If you have a fairer method of media dissemination, I would be curious to hear it.

[ 10-08-2001: Message edited by: Lazarus ]

at99 · Post by **at99** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 8:43 pm

Whoa Fable have a better look at your argument

[ 11-20-2001: Message edited by: at99 ]

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 9:01 pm

Originally posted by Fas:
CE Hekmatyar - the PM of the exile govt - was an excellent leader, he had the support of the people and had a great deal of military support from the Pakistani and US govt.
However he did not do much.
My knowledge is limited on him but my respect is not.
However having him back will be adding a 4th group to an already problomatic issue.
I think the US should not choose who should lead the nation.
Let the people do that.

Thanks for the information, Fas. I certainly agree that the US coalition should not install a government - on the contrary I hope that a democratic election can be held after all this.
However, I suppose there's a great risk that the country again will suffer from differenct groups wanting to take control after the war is over. So I believe some kind of UN control over election etc, (like in former Yugoslavia) would be benefical for a period.

Darkpoet · Post by **Darkpoet** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 9:05 pm

Originally posted by at99:
Whoa Fable have a better look at your argument. I know western cultures are not pefect but hey we are nothing like these so-called civilisations.

They dont have a acceptable level of free speech and dont seem to look at them selves objectively. They are fed 'hate America'.

Looking at examples of 100's of years ago is not good enough.

There oversensitivity to their cultures and religion is way to much.

Does anyone believe that there cultures are equal to ours. That is not a racist comment.

It is the same media crap, that was fed to us about the Russians.

at99 · Post by **at99** » Tue Oct 09, 2001 12:06 am

Originally posted by Darkpoet:

It is the same media crap, that was fed to us about the Russians.

Look what happened to Russia!
Need I say more

[ 11-20-2001: Message edited by: at99 ]

at99 · Post by **at99** » Tue Oct 09, 2001 12:13 am

Originally posted by fable:
@
With all the gains made to MidEast foreign policy by the US during and after the Gulf War, everything was once again sacrificed on the altar of Israeli votes--well, that and the seeming obsession with Sadam Hussain, and the (unintentional) destruction of the Iraqi people.

....

Are you for real.

Sadam Hussain is a man for peace. He wants a piece of Kuwait and a piece of Iran...

He only makes peaceful weapons of mass destruction.

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Oct 09, 2001 12:33 am

[quote]at99 writes:
Does anyone believe that there cultures are equal to ours. That is not a racist comment.

Assuming you mean this seriously, and not sarcastically, I'd have to suggest that you study the cultures in question in depth, first, before we do a review. I can certainly recommend several good books, and I'm sure others can, as well, if you're actually interested in that sort of discussion. Once you've read 'em, we can do some in-depth comparisons. Sound fair?

at99 · Post by **at99** » Tue Oct 09, 2001 2:05 am

Originally posted by fable:

Assuming you mean this seriously, and not sarcastically, I'd have to suggest that you study the cultures in question in depth, first, before we do a review. I can certainly recommend several good books, and I'm sure others can, as well, if you're actually interested in that sort of discussion. Once you've read 'em, we can do some in-depth comparisons. Sound fair?

[ 11-20-2001: Message edited by: at99 ]

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Tue Oct 09, 2001 2:10 am

Watch it fable, I already flamed at99 a while back for his insults to "white" "British" cultural origins of North America.

Its just not worth it (or even a challenge).

@at99. I think you'd better be careful too. Stating "this is not a racist comment" does not bode well for the content of your message.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Tue Oct 09, 2001 2:28 am

Originally posted by at99:
We in the west will admit our cultures are not perfect but I havent heard to many people from that part of the world be so honest.

They don't have the freedom to admit their cultures are not perfect, IIRC.

at99 · Post by **at99** » Tue Oct 09, 2001 6:08 am

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
They don't have the freedom to admit their cultures are not perfect, IIRC.

whos fault is that then

Shadow Sandrock · Post by **Shadow Sandrock** » Tue Oct 09, 2001 7:04 am

Originally posted by at99:

whos fault is that then

Taliban

Like an endless waltz, history will repeat itself... she wasn't kidding in that movie

Shadow Sandrock · Post by **Shadow Sandrock** » Tue Oct 09, 2001 7:07 am

If Afghanistan doesn't want to get bombed so badly, why don't they just give up bin Laden??? What is the POINT behind giving him "safety" if they are just bringing themselves down?

Probably because they couldn't care less what happens to the civilians...

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Oct 09, 2001 7:19 am

Originally posted by at99:

Tell you what my man fable . You tell everyone why middle eastern cultures are as good as the west so we can all have a look or a laugh.

Not everyone, @at99. Only you, since you're the single person currently making racist remarks about non-Western cultures on our boards. And I don't want or need to "tell" you anything. I just want to discuss the issue on a level playing field, which means that you and I both will need to have an understanding of the historical and present social, cultural, religious and economic aspects of the various MidEastern nations in question.

Surely that's a fair request of you? How else can one engage in comparatives among cultures, unless understanding of all these cultures are present?

[ 10-09-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Tue Oct 09, 2001 7:33 am

Originally posted by at99:

You tell everyone why middle eastern cultures are as good as the west so we can all have a look or a laugh.

IMO this is culture-racism.

at99, if you want a discussion about this subject, I suggest you do some reading and post well motivated opinins instead of bigot generalized comments.

T'lainya · Post by **T'lainya** » Tue Oct 09, 2001 7:36 am

@ at99 Please don't make racist remarks on these forums. Mr. Sleep already warned you about this.

Bloodstalker · Post by **Bloodstalker** » Tue Oct 09, 2001 7:57 am

Well, usually I post only when I have nothing to say, but I feel the need to express myself seriously for just a moment.

I personally have a problem understanding how one culture or way of life, can be deemed better or worse than another. People live their own way, the way that they are comfortable with, and that is supposedly what the U.S. stands for. I don't think that it is fair or acurate to to directly connect ones culture, ubringing, personal beliefs, etc. to a government that has total control over it's people. The government, in this case, the Taliban, may not speak on behalf of it's people. As a matter of fact, there is considerable opposition to the Taliban in Afgahnistan. While if someone asked me if The Taliban regime was wrong and unsatisfactory, I would say that yes, it is unsatisfactory. But there are also many people, (Northern Alliance) which would agree with me.

Remember, there was a time that the U.S. had to fight to break it's ties with a government that we did not feel represented it's people. This did not mean that we broke with everything that we had brought, culturally, from the British. Actually, we still share many similarities with our brothers across the sea. The British are our strongest friends in the international community in my opinion. It was not the people, or the things that we held in common that caused us to split, it was the government.

I think of Afghanistan the same way. Their government controls the press, as did The British government in the 1700's. Was that the people's fault? no, it wasn't.Look at the British government today. How did it change? it was the British people who changed the government and made the change.

As far as middle eastern culture being inferior to western culture, I don't see how that can be stated. Our views of the world, and even the realities of the world we live in, are very different. However, there are many peaceful muslims, many more than there are violent extremists. I know that all we see on the news is the worst side of middle eastern life, but honestly, that is about all we see on the news about our own country. The sad reality is that common, everyday people like me and you, who go to work, live normal lives, and don't cause trouble, are never on the news. We don't make for good ratings.

As far as civilizations and culture goes, remember that our own country is barely over 200 years old. While it is generally conceded that civilization pretty much began in the middle eastern area of the world.

To sum it up, I think the Taliban does not directly represent the majority of tha Afghan people. To group the people with the government in this situation is wrong, and flawed from the beginning.

That said, I would like to state that it was not my intention to irritate or anger anyone. I was simply stating my opinion on the matter. Do I think the Taliban is wrong? yes. Do I think the retaliation was warranted? yes. Do I blame the Afghan people or their culture? No.

I shall return to lurking now. I hope what I have said has made sense.

scully1 · Post by **scully1** » Tue Oct 09, 2001 1:21 pm

Saying that the Taliban is part of Afghan and/or Muslim culture...

is the same as saying that Nazism was part of German culture.

at99 · Post by **at99** » Tue Oct 09, 2001 5:17 pm

I have been watching many news reports and hearing many points of view from middle east experts.

[ 11-20-2001: Message edited by: at99 ]