Who else is p.o'd about the limited NPC class selections.

the Elfstone · Post by **the Elfstone** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 7:40 am

its definitely a trade off, in BGI you had a lot of really usefull NPCs, in BGII you have a small (and sometimes dubious) selection, but there's all of this great interaction and scripted events that tie into their quests. as ajax mentioned, the way around the problem is to either edit the NPCs (which i don't like to do) or play multiplayer solo. i tried the latter the second time through and quit mid-way, it was too easy (my characters all had maxed out stats and became too powerful), and in all honesty, the games seemed less fun w/o the npc interaction.
i had hoped bioware would address the thief npc problem w/ throne of bhaal, but it looks like its going to be another mage. oh well, time to stock up on thieving potions for my trip to Watchers Keep.

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 7:54 am

Try this: if you want NPC interaction, play BG2. If you want to customize characters, play IWD. They're not mutually exclusive y'know.

Ro´Jadre · Post by **Ro´Jadre** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 8:00 am

I played my first game with all PCs, and I just think the character interactions are irritating now.

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Ro´Jadre - Mighty Kensai/Mage of the Council of Mages

Loredweller · Post by **Loredweller** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 12:07 pm

Originally posted by Ro´Jadre:
I played my first game with all PCs, and I just think the character interactions are irritating now.

Then you should turn to Diablo

Just MHO,
L.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 2:12 pm

True that it is somewhat thin, especially for the evil parties. If they didnt take away yoshimo and added another neutral fightertype i would be happy, now being good is overrepresented...

Sigurd, good is over-represented? But the best fighter, cleric and mage are all evil. Other characters, like Jan, Jaheira and Cernd, are neutral. True, the good folks have the numbers, but neutrality and evil have the quality.

Hazim ibn Gorion · Post by **Hazim ibn Gorion** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 4:39 pm

I would disagree that the best warrior is evil. Korgan is great, but he really can't compete with a well-equiped Keldorn. I used Keldorn in my first game. By the time we went to the asylum, he was almost ridiculously powerful. I'm playing Korgan right now. He's great, but not as much umph as Keldorn.

the Elfstone · Post by **the Elfstone** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 6:25 pm

(ok, this is turning into 4 different threads) Gruntboy, that is an excellent point. When i played IWD i still played w/ the main character as a protagonist, and the other characters were BGI type NPCs w/ stories of there own.
ok, to completely change the subject...does anyone else thing that kits are totally made for IWD? kits add so much replayability, its a shame there wasn't an attempt to add kits in HoW. just a little off topic rant there...

Mythalos · Post by **Mythalos** » Thu Mar 29, 2001 7:40 am

When I make a post such as this I'm asking those that would care to make comments to be open minded and debatable. My intentions were to see if others felt that the class selection of NPCs limited there options when forming a party. Yes Bioware did an excellent job(I am not attacking the developers of this game)as I always play with the pre-generated NPCs(Anomen, jaheira), but "I" feel that there could have been a larger selection. It is my opinion and neither wrong nor right. I am happy to see debates running in this post. However I ask that each individual please refrain from direct attacks placed towards me or any other member who posts here.

Mythalos

Mythalos · Post by **Mythalos** » Thu Mar 29, 2001 7:46 am

Posted be Radek: "BG2 is not a mission disc. BG2 is a new game with new Imoen, Anomen and so on. You are importing only YOUR OWN character, not Imoen or Anomen. That's why it doesn't matter what you did to Edwin or how you improved Imoen in BG1. Consider Imoen, etc., as completely new characters, well, with the same names you already know and with the history you have already met."

I am completely aware of this fact Radek. It is a "new" Imoen....my point is that I am sure the developers were more than capable of allowing your saved file to dictate the starting skills and levels of your NPCs. I do however realize that Imoen is part of the story and as such she may be the exception(in order to move the story along properly).

Radek · Post by **Radek** » Thu Mar 29, 2001 10:07 am

I think, BG2 is seriously underdone as far as NPCs are considered. They are weak in the sense that you can always create your own party members that will be much better. There are too few NPCs in general. Even the oldest games with NPCs offered much more characters. This results in the necessity of mixing alignments in the party and then solving the resulting problems (was it the intent?). I would suggest:
a) much more NPCs. The NPCs must be prepared for different alignments and different strategies (fighters, spellcasters, thiefs, etc.)
b) the NPCs cannot be emulated, i.e., the player cannot create "something like that" or even "something better". This can be achieved by special powers, forbidden class combinations, improved resistances and saving throws and so on.
c) no "mandatory" NPCs like Imoen. Well, she can be send packing but it is against the story somehow.
d) one personal wish: DROP THE DRIVEL! Or, at least, implement an option to switch drivel off. It may be funny for the first time but it becomes irritating when you must listen to Imoen's contributions (for example) for the 10th time.

[This message has been edited by Radek (edited 03-29-2001).]

Loredweller · Post by **Loredweller** » Thu Mar 29, 2001 10:12 am

Originally posted by Radek:
BG2 is not a mission disc. BG2 is a new game with new Imoen, Anomen and so on. You are importing only YOUR OWN character, not Imoen or Anomen. That's why it doesn't matter what you did to Edwin or how you improved Imoen in BG1. Consider Imoen, etc., as completely new characters, well, with the same names you already know and with the history you have already met.

Well, then why are they (save Anomen) called "friends form the past" in manual, pray? It is RPG, after all. If i go to meet an old friend i'm expecting to meet an old friend...

Just MHO,
L.

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Mar 29, 2001 1:10 pm

Loredweller, I think it's pretty safe to say that the reasons several NPCs are referred to as "old friends" yet are different from their previous characters is due to a compromise. Bioware wanted to keep the sense of a continuation for BG1 players, but they also wanted to get new players who could care less.

Looked at from the point of view of BG1, several character-related problems exist--the biggest being, for me, how Imoen, who was roughly on par with you for experience (and was a thief in BG1), could suddenly acquire tons of mage experience that took her far beyond your level.

It all makes a lot better sense to just think of the game as a new beginning, like a novel where the main character already has established relationships at the start.

Loredweller · Post by **Loredweller** » Fri Mar 30, 2001 5:31 am

Fable, i understand their approach.
I understand also that Iomen should be mage according to plot.
Hope, though, it does not mean i must agree

However my discontent is more selection related instead of change in Iomen's profession

Ther might be - and should be - more old friends and NPC overall.
It appears, i have somewhat different tastes with developpment team. Say, they assume Minisc is cool, i do not think so, etc. So i'm going whinning

The last but not the least

If you're in RPG, it have some impact, haven't it? So sometimes there some pathethic lawfull good kensaimage is speaking, let's see what chaotic neutral sorcerer will have to say, and some avenger migh break through by the way

They have something to say, too

We are what we're playing and how we're playing, who cares if it is computer game or so called "real life", they are tied and interact more than we might imagine.
I love such games mostly because it's like as you are taking a part in writing a book, you should know, who better? Community is a part of the process, isn't it?
TIA,
L.

Mythalos · Post by **Mythalos** » Fri Mar 30, 2001 7:28 am

Obviously I agree with Lordeweller or I wouldn't have made this post. Greater variety of NPCs and a little more control of there development would have been nice albeit the development team can't do everything.

Manveru · Post by **Manveru** » Fri Mar 30, 2001 7:44 am

Where is the problem ?

...Just start new game, launch shadowkeeper and change your Imoen or other character according to your preferences.

Yes, I know it is cheating, but the game is for the player not player for the game. So if you would like to have "other" Imoen just do as I said, set her normal characteristics for the chosen class and then play game without cheating.

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Manveru Telkontar, a Proud Member of the Brotherhood of the Woods.

Elen sila Lumenn' Omentielvo

[This message has been edited by Manveru (edited 03-30-2001).]

Loredweller · Post by **Loredweller** » Fri Mar 30, 2001 8:51 am

Originally posted by Manveru:
Where is the problem ?

...Just start new game, launch shadowkeeper and change your Imoen ...

... and break the storyline

L.

Mythalos · Post by **Mythalos** » Sat Mar 31, 2001 12:56 pm

Exactly Loredweller!

Mythalos

Zaha · Post by **Zaha** » Sat Mar 31, 2001 1:57 pm

I think that the selection of NPC's in BG2 is quite fine, but there are two things I'd change...

First, don't you think that 3 thief/mages is too much?

Second, I'd like to have at least one NPC from the new classes (Sorcerer, Barbarian, Monk).

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Mar 31, 2001 4:30 pm

Lordweller, I understand your position (without necessarily agreeing with it).

Zaha has a point, though I suspect the developers needed Imoen to still have thieving skills so as to catch traps and locks in the first dungeon. Jan is a fascinating alternative to Yoshimo. And Nalia...? I think Nalia should have been a multi-class fighter/mage. That would have made her more appealing, and opened up new dilemnas of choosing for those of us who want great magery and fighting.

Locke Da'averan · Post by **Locke Da'averan** » Sat Mar 31, 2001 5:33 pm

The NPC's were spectacular in BG2, those whinings, complainings, bragging and other stuff although sometimes annoying were very good in the game, so 10+ to Bioware for the creation of NPC's.

As someone said earlier on this thread, isn't 3 thief/mages too much? i think it is.
You only have one pure thief (who dies in the middle of the game), one pure cleric(evil) and one pure mage(evil), i know they can't please all of us, but they could've atleast putted a pure thief who doesn't die in the middle of the story(Yoshi's treachery was a good twist though), i for one don't like to divide thiefs exp for one or two other classes, but what's done is done, i just hope there's wider selection in ToB

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