A hypothesis ...

Anglachel · Post by **Anglachel** » Wed Jan 24, 2001 5:44 pm

I have a theory as to why BG1, BG2 and PST are such popular games. Because all three have a clearly deliniated protagonist that is specifically intended to represent the player, it tends to immerse the player more fully into the experience. This is in contrast to the old gold box D&D games and even IWD.

For me this type of "role-playing" makes these games stand head and shoulders over the competition.

If anyone has comments I would be very interested to hear them.

Also, if anyone knows of other games similar in nature, I would be interested to know about them.

SheBug · Post by **SheBug** » Wed Jan 24, 2001 8:21 pm

I agree. Some games similar but not exactly the same are the Might and Magic games and of course the old Ultima games. I don't know about the new Ultima games.

Alienbob · Post by **Alienbob** » Wed Jan 24, 2001 8:25 pm

yeah, hack and slash games like Diablo get old after awhile.

T'lainya · Post by **T'lainya** » Wed Jan 24, 2001 10:34 pm

The 2 Tamriel games; Arena the Elder Scrolls and Daggerfall both are single character rpgs that allow a great deal of customization for the player. The npc interaction is fairly nonexistant. The story is very nonlinear you can go anywhere at any time.

Drakron Du´Dark · Post by **Drakron Du´Dark** » Wed Jan 24, 2001 10:35 pm

Boy was Daggerfall llllloooooooonnnnnnnnggggggg.
And had about 20 patches.
I liked the Fallout series myself.

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"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not became a monster... when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss gazes into you..."
Friedrich Nietzsche

Top Dog · Post by **Top Dog** » Thu Jan 25, 2001 2:16 am

Personally I will never feel "immersed" as long as the game has a 3rd person view. It always makes me feel like a spectator rather than a participant.
I really did like the NPC's in this one. What I miss is having some more specializations skill-wise, both for the main character and the NPC's. I'd also really would have liked to pick their classes, kits, etc. Hey, as much as Minsc hates evil, why not make him a paladin (so he can use Carsomyr)? Or a barbarian? The only connection I can see to a ranger is Boo.

Anglachel · Post by **Anglachel** » Thu Jan 25, 2001 2:37 pm

I agree with the top-down angle problem for total immersion, but I feel that it can be made up for by the storyline. I played Daggerfall, but never finished because the story was not compelling.

Doltan · Post by **Doltan** » Thu Jan 25, 2001 2:53 pm

Daggerfall has to be my favorite RPG of all time. If you could get past the bugs (and there were many!), the ability to customize your character was un-matched. Yes, the story wasn't quite as compelling as BG, but the non-linearity and side quests were superior (and first, if that counts for anything).

rapier · Post by **rapier** » Thu Jan 25, 2001 2:56 pm

I think Fallout 1 + 2 were good, but BG II is better, Fallout II has blood and gore though, and I LIKE blood and gore!! And Chainguns and Plasma cannons, and Gauss weapons, but I'm babbling...

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Pretty pretty walks the night, pretty pretty fears the light.
Pretty pretty has no soul, pretty pretty black as coal.

vixen · Post by **vixen** » Thu Jan 25, 2001 3:28 pm

Diablo killed my mouse (all that pressing to attack)
BG1 killed my computer (repeatedly)

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Thu Jan 25, 2001 3:40 pm

I find Diablo is the kind of game I put on for mindless killing, cause that's all it is! Either then that, both BG2, and PST are great games. (Never finished PST cause others things preoccupied me) Some other good games that let you cust. your main char. and the rest for that matter, is V:tMR. Aside from initial stats, the rest is of your choosing.

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I am the defender of the light! The champion of Justice! And the slayer of really big lizards!

hermetic · Post by **hermetic** » Thu Jan 25, 2001 4:04 pm

Fallout was amazing, an obvious predecessor to BG. I liked New Reno, hell, the whole setting of the game was great! Becoming a porn star was the best, although being a fluffer wasn't very cool at all.

Drakron Du´Dark · Post by **Drakron Du´Dark** » Thu Jan 25, 2001 4:29 pm

Does anyone remenber in Fallout 2 the weding?

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"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not became a monster... when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss gazes into you..."
Friedrich Nietzsche

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Thu Jan 25, 2001 4:49 pm

Originally posted by vixen:
Diablo killed my mouse (all that pressing to attack)
BG1 killed my computer (repeatedly)

LOL! *I* killed my computer after BG1 stopped working, then I patched it and it still wouldn't work. Now its fine ('percussive maintenance').

Lord Olecram · Post by **Lord Olecram** » Thu Jan 25, 2001 11:39 pm

The spell effects in PST are even more impressive than both bg2 and diablo's... and I also think that twisted-multi-planar Planescape universe kicks ass... I hope they make PST2 with NWN engine!!!!!!

Cybane · Post by **Cybane** » Fri Jan 26, 2001 12:06 am

Originally posted by Drakron Du´Dark:
Does anyone remenber in Fallout 2 the weding?

Yes I do, quite clearly actually

. I was a female character, and I managed to "seduce" the daughter... I tell ya, Fallout is the king of *interesting* RPGs, with Dogmeat being one of the many reasons why. One thing's for sure though, I can't wait for Fallout 3, or to get my greedy lil' mitts on Fallout: Tactics(if the mplayer aspect of it turns out well).

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Only the insane have the will to prosper;
Only those that prosper, truly judge what is sane

[This message has been edited by Cybane (edited 01-26-2001).]

Cybane · Post by **Cybane** » Fri Jan 26, 2001 12:10 am

One more thing, the only way I see a sequel to Planescape:Torment(the BEST RPG I have ever played of its type), is something along the lines of Fallout:Tactics. For this reason.....
*SPOILERS FOR PST AHEAD*
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At the end of PST, the Nameless One regains his mortality and joins in the Blood War. I don't really see this branching into another full-blown story unless they come up with something INCREDIBLY creative. But I could see it being something like F:T where you control small groups of people, or armies for that matter, and fight battles and stuff.

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Only the insane have the will to prosper;
Only those that prosper, truly judge what is sane

Aegnor · Post by **Aegnor** » Fri Jan 26, 2001 9:09 am

Personally, I can't see the Nameless One reappearing in any form in future PS games. So much of the pleasure of playing the game was the whole "penance" theme, which is pretty much resolved with the ending. No doubt, though, that the PS universe will be used again.

One thing I miss from PST is the ability to initiate dialog with party members. DEFINITELY strengthens the immersion factor. Has anyone managed to initiate dialog with an NPC already in your party in BGII? I did, once, with Mazzy after she met Gorf the Squisher.

Nighthawk · Post by **Nighthawk** » Fri Jan 26, 2001 12:01 pm

The identification with a single player may be part of why I always want to solo these games (starting with Eye of the Beholder).

I liked Daggerfall: Until I got tired of doing virtually the same thing over and over and figured out how to break their character development system (spell skills as prime, magic absorbtion ability, repeatedly cast area affect spells into walls at point-blank range).

Still haven't played Torment. Personally I like the top-down view. In person views tend to give a rather narrow field of vision.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Fri Jan 26, 2001 3:32 pm

I think fundamentally the most important part of a RPG (or any computer game) is a good storyline.

BG1, PST, and BG2 each have a storyline that makes you want to stick with it to the end. Believable NPC's, an immersive gaming environment, and an awesome storyline will always be the most important elements in a game (to me anyway). I really don't care much about 3rd person or 1st person views. Most games nowadays are regurgitated, 2nd rate games with recycled plots of "Kill as many baddies as possible."

I liked the plot of Diablo and Diablo 2, but I felt that it could have been a lot more. Personally, I found Daggerfall weak and all the dungeon romping bored me after a while (even though character customization was fun...assuming the game would run). And Fallout (I and II) had good plots, but they never appealed to me (maybe because I didn't think they were up to par with their predecessor).