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Loredweller
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Post by Loredweller »

Originally posted by Zartuul:
<STRONG>
...
Is it even possible for a woman to rape a man?
...
</STRONG>
Yes, it is, if you really wish to know, BTW. In history of female prisons and concentration camps (at least of former USSR) there are stories about execution of male jailors this way, usually as revenge for sexual violence, and with lethal end. Sex to death, if so. Obviously, no evidence should be left. Not an usual event, of course, nonetheless real one. Most often altogether the background has been so horrible than nobody might blame those women. As rule it has been an act of overall despair or exasperation.

Sorry if not the right place, i feel some discomfort altogether, something about out of canvas ... well, i do not know, i feel also it might be necessary nonetheless :confused:

L.
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Post by scully1 »

@Zartuul --
Fascinating...and I believe the feeling is mutual as far as not understanding the opposite sex...I simply can't comprehend the male at all...it just seems to me that there are more worthy pursuits in life than the male drives that you mention...there must be better motivators than conquering everything one sees...and I suppose a man wouldn't understand why I would say that.

Perhaps if we stopped being so wrapped up in this Mars/Venus garbage, and realized that male and female are merely two sides of the same being, we could understand and learn from one another better. Just a theory.
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Post by Loredweller »

Originally posted by Zartuul:
<STRONG>...
Personally I think that men are more predictable then women ....
</STRONG>
Well, i have some parable for it, i guess, and our most beautiful Ladies might correct me, if i'm wrong :)
It is, of course, pale reflection of reality, even of one edge of it.
I see a women as a melody, let's say good old jazz :) You may know the tune, if you recognize it you may even be admitted to try to play.
It is always the same theme profound, even if you cannot recognize it. There are improvisation, the melody changes with every tact, and you never know for sure what next passage might be. You still may guess and often right, though. The melody may change with time and become quite different, it might happen you cannot recognize familiar one after the years, but the main theme, initial tune, the spirit is still here. It might become so complex you might never find the essential part of it, after all it's rare you're listening from the beginnings, aren't you? Well, then no fate, is it? Nevertheless it never goes too far, it's always the same thing, it only might sound different. Women are more more whole inside even if they do not admit or even recognize it themselves.
Well, now about your role, dear player. If you believe you recognize the tune or, at least, make an illusion you might, you may be admitted to try. What are you expected, the only thing? Well, i guess you're expected to cause those turns and passages, to enrich the melody, to winkle out something of that true beauty hiding in the depth :) You should be the player and the listener at once. You are even allowed make mistakes – within reason and while there is a hope there might be some sense of you. ;) Of course, there always might be a chance somebody do better ... :(
Do not go too far from the main tune, though. Also do not become too obvious. Do not repeat passages you've discovered too often, even if they sound very nice first time, though it might be worth to repeat sometimes to recall how it has been before, even better when not expected - within reason again :) Do not make music boring and keep the theme, in one word. Let it ring.
It hardly is possible without love of such or another kind (and it ever might do nothing with sex altogether). Of course, clever and cold manipulators exist, but you're in trouble if you are suspected to be one. As in music there are easy melodies and hard ones, whole sounding and internally controversial, virtuosos without heart and dilettantes with heart full of love, it's life. The rules remains, anyway.
It's obvious the language is too poor to describe women, as well as it is too poor to describe love. (Ancient Greek had five or six terms for different kinds of love, BTW, or so i'm told. Have never known if they cared about women so much, though). The music may do. It itself can hardly been explained, or there probably would be no necessity for it. I cannot write music, sorry :(
Begging pardon for clumsy English, if possible.
Hope, what i'm trying to say might be at least guessed :)
L.

[ 05-09-2001: Message edited by: Loredweller ]
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Post by fable »

@Zartuul: In a nutshell men like to lead, conquer, be respected or feared among their peers and to an extent women, and then of course have sex. Is it even possible for a woman to rape a man?

With respect, I would suggest this isn't general among men by any means--I honestly don't know a single guy (including myself) who wants to be "feared" by his peers, and I think I'd feel unclean if I provoked that reaction in others. I also notice a complete absence of the word "love" in your conclusion. I would again suggest that love is as important as respect to all human beings.

As to women raping men: yes, it can be done, and yes, it has been done. Spousal abuse by women is also a significant problem in many cultures, but tends to be unregarded because of the stigma attached due to stereotypes.

If I may make a suggestion, since you're curious what women feel and think...? Focus on a single woman *as a person,* rather than as *a woman.* You can't relate to a stereotype, but you can relate to an individual. You'll probably find that, aside from the obvious physical differences and those differences created by society's attempts to mold people according to certain sexual types, the woman you get to know is surprisingly like yourself--and different, to the extent that she's a separate person.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
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Post by nael »

very thorough theory loredweller, quite a romantic notion of the whole discussion at hand. quick side note, the greek's different words for love were not just in reference to women, but also to friendship, lust, knowledge, etc.
and speakign of greek philosophy, if you look at presocratic philosopher, epicureus, his overall philosophy is about seekign pleasure. just hearign that, most people think of food and sex, but he recognized that there are finer pursuits that should bring even more pleasure, such as writing and love. so, the whole discussion about different sexes havign different needs is very misplaced. i stick by my original assertion that there are no commonalities amongst each sex. i know just as many sex and leadership driven women as i do men. and i know plenty of men that fit the female stereotype of being passive and needy. these are just stereotypes and have no truth in today's world. in ancient times, these roles were forced upon women because are natural strength made us into protectors. to semi-use loredwellers analogy, some people (male and female) like to hear the same song over and over again with no variation, and osme get bored rather quickly with a song, soem will like country and some will like jazz. soem of us, like me, just like to sit back and enjoy each piece of music for it's own beauty.
I would be a serial killer if i didn't have such a strong distaste for manual labor
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Post by Kayless »

Whoa! This topic has taken a turn for the philosophical. You guys are having an earnest discussion about cosmic issues and I’m over here making crude jokes with proverbial sock puppets! :o :( Despite feeling rather sheepish, let me stick my toes back in the water and give my two cents:

Don’t try to understand the opposite sex. You can’t. And I don’t think it’s because the motivations and goals are diametrically dissimilar, rather due to the fact that we’re operating on entirely different levels. Society and biology have produced a gap that separates males and females by more then simple base desires. But that doesn’t mean our fundamental hopes and fears are not shared (is any of this making sense?) I guess in a nutshell my opinion is; enjoy the ride. So what if you don’t know what they’re thinking, that’s half the fun. I'll go back to my proverbial sock puppets now. :)
Nature’s first green is gold,
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
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Post by dragon wench »

@Loredweller: Wow, that's both lovely and insightful! And your English is far better than many who are alledged native speakers.

@Zartuul: First, I appreciate the honesty with which you express your opinions :) .

You say that men are more predictable than women. On this, I do not necessarily disagree with you. It is only in recent yars that I've been able to form close female friendships, and I think that this is related to my experience that men tend to be far more blunt if you do something to upset them, or whatever. In many cases, with men, what you see is what you get. BUT, this is solely based on my own experience so I would be cautious about applying it as a general rule.
Moreover, I don't think that women actually are more complex than men, but rather, men have in general been far freer to fully develop as human beings, whereas women have often had to hide the various flesh and blood facets that make them what they are. As an example, during the Victorian age "respectable" women were not supposed to enjoy sex. And I think that this attitude carries over into today giving rise to contradictions between our "modern", more permissive society, and long entrenched views. Take a look at many women's magazines (Cosmopolitan comes to mind) The front cover shows an alluring, scantily clad women with a come hither look to her posture. Yet, open the magazine and read the articles, and women are told once again that "he won't respect you if you put out." So is it any surprise that women are less forthright about expressing sexual desire?
Now regarding competition and aspirations to leadership. You mention athletes. If you're referring to team sports, then yes men do seem to predominate. But what about things like running, swimming etc. Are you saying that women who go to the Olympics are less driven in their desire to claim that gold medal? Women, I can attest, are extremely competitive, both with one another, and with men (anyone who has been to graduate school will tell you that). When I'm in a discussion seminar, my blood lust rises to the fore, and I take no prisoners in attacking those against whom I'm arguing. Further, when I win, I feel a huge rush of andrenaline , and I enjoy knowing that I've scored a victory. And of course, in grad seminars your participation grade is extremely important, and there are only so many top grades that will be handed out.....

Having said all of that I also strongly believe that women have made significant, and indeed vital, contributions to the public sphere through more traditional roles (the women's auxiliaries attatched to unions often had the power to make or break a strike soley because of their role in the community).
To conclude my rant, I think that the Meredith Brooks song sums it up rather well:

"I'm a little bit of everthing all rolled into one,
I'm a b**ch,
I'm a lover,
I'm a child,
I'm a mother,
I'm a sinner,
I'm a saint,
I do not feel ashamed....
so take me as I am, this may mean that you'll have to be a stronger man."

[ 05-09-2001: Message edited by: dragon wench ]
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Post by jennabard »

i have to agree with georgi with maintaining our shallowness :D

lordweller- your parable is very poetic but i think pretains more to growing as a person rather than being female.

since Somebody didn't give us a clue when dealing with these complexities, we'll just have to accept life as it comes. which isn't that bad if you think about it :D

i bought this journal to write down my beliefs i would like to share if you don't mind.

i believe the word 'be' is the most powerful word in the human language.

i believe the word 'if' is the scariest word in the world

i believe anomen is my fav digital boyfriend

i believe that BG2 is the best game experience i've had since sex. :D
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Zartuul
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Post by Zartuul »

Just in case anyone was wondering everything that I said was a very broad generalization. I was talking about some of the differences between men and women which is why I didn't mention anything about love because that is something that both sexes need. Obviously not all men have those attributes that I listed but more often then not the average man does.

It seems like men act the most 'male' during their teenage years when the testerone is flowing through their veins. Just think about highschool and how the guys in the school had their popularity contests and a social pecking order. There'd be the jocks, the semi popular, the average, the below average, then the nerds. Jocks would often walk the halls and toss insults at the lower caste guys to 'put them in their place'.

Here's another example of the need to conquer that baffles women. Sometimes a guy will really want a girl but for one purpose only, to bed her. So he chases and pursues and woos her over. Finally she believes that he's done enough to win her effections then the next day he's out chasing someone else. Its the classic HPD (Hump Pump Dump). The guy was out to get her and once he got what he wanted he's moving on to the next challenge, meanwhile the girl is flabbergasted and can't understand WTF just happened. Now DISCLAIMER, MOST guys are not like this!! I certainly am not!

Basically I was just talking about some of the most primal of male instincts which of course leads to broad generalization and stereotyping. When I think about the primal instincts for sex between the two sexes, this is what I gather. A male can theoretically impregnant a female every day, males are breeding machines. Since they don't have to carry the baby they can father multiple offspring at once, at the primal instinct level males are not monogamous.

Women on the other hand tend to be more selective of their mates because they want a man that will help them care for their child. This generally means that they won't accept just any male that comes along so they are more picky in their potential mates since it seems to come from a biological and emotional level.

Again this is all just generalizations and this doesn't necessarily reflect my opinion on either men or women.
Zartuul
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scully1
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Post by scully1 »

*sigh*...this is depressing...is everything we are solely the result of chemical processes?...

@jennabard -- agree w/you on the word "be". It's the word that created the universe.
And "if" is to be avoided at all costs ;)
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Post by Georgi »

Originally posted by Loredweller:
<STRONG>It is, of course, pale reflection of reality, even of one edge of it.
[ 05-09-2001: Message edited by: Loredweller ]</STRONG>
So just to lighten the tone a bit... does that remind you of anyone?
Let me refresh your memory then...
"This flower is but a pale imitation of the attraction you hold for me..."

;)
Who, me?!?
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Post by dragon wench »

You're right Jennabard, "Be" is one of the most powerful words in the language. And "if" is one that I've far too much experience with, yes it's scary. Thanks for sharing a part of your journal :) BTW

Loner 72, I really and truly hope that we are not all determined by chemical processes. That would remove the magic of what it means to be human. It would strip away the soul and the creative spirit. No, I refuse to believe that we are genetically programmed automatoms! Where would the mystery be? And there's something truly wonderful about not being able to fully explain why you're attracted to somebody.
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
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.......All those moments ... will be lost ... in time ... like tears in rain.
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Post by nael »

dragon wench- what are you doing post graduate work in?
-just curious
I would be a serial killer if i didn't have such a strong distaste for manual labor
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Post by fable »

@Zartuul: "Basically I was just talking about some of the most primal of male instincts which of course leads to broad generalization and stereotyping. When I think about the primal instincts for sex between the two sexes, this is what I gather. A male can theoretically impregnant a female every day, males are breeding machines. Since they don't have to carry the baby they can father multiple offspring at once, at the primal instinct level males are not monogamous."

Is it possible that this ability to produce endless seed in a single burst means just one thing, that men can produce endless seed in a single burst? ;)

@Zartuul: "It seems like men act the most 'male' during their teenage years when the testerone is flowing through their veins."

You're scaring me, Zartuul. You're basically taking a very short period during a male's life when their hormones go haywire, and render them at least temporarily insane, and suggesting that this is somehow the most basic quantifiable condition of the entire sex. I sincerely hope not. I would also suggest that this behavior if only typical of certain societies, and certain strata of those societies. You will not find it in Japan, for instance, or in China, or in Ghana, or in the 19th century US. You *will* find it, in other words, exactly where guys of that age have been told by some Western middle class societies it will occur. It's a self-fulfilling phenomenon.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
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Post by jennabard »

frankly this is all very interesting, maybe there should be another thread for this discussion.

but this is about the best male npc body.
to lighten the mood and cause fun havoc.

i vote for soloufien as best body, love his stance with his sword tapping on his shoulder. :D :D
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dragon wench
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Post by dragon wench »

Nael, I'm attemting to complete a Master's thesis in Canadian Working-Class and Gender History (if you're interested in the specifics I can send you a private note so that it doesn't distract this thread even further, and yes guilty am I :) )
Mmmmm Soloufein. I believe it's a much lamented fact among female players that he's not a romance option.
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
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.......All those moments ... will be lost ... in time ... like tears in rain.
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Post by velvetfreak »

I had a couple of OT responses which I was loath to post, but after Loredweller's analogy I had to.

I am a musician, and music to me is the language of the gods. It can translate any human emotion, horror, elation, lust, redemption, and it can evoke others there are no words for. At its height it is a spiritually unifying experience. Given the nature of love, I think it's a fine analogy. (Or maybe I'm a bit carried away with the muse...)

As for Jaheira, she's my favourite romance. I like her because she's the "cleanest". There's none of this dependency-encouragement with Aerie, I told her to snap out of it when she was complaining that she didn't want to live anymore and she said I was cruel and finished it! I thought I was doing her a favour. The least that could be said for Viconia is that she's too screwed-up for a relationship and needs therapy. Or the fantasy equivalent - Remove Curse???

The other thing I was going to say was, as a male, and role-playing a female character (Elven Fighter/Mage), I was curious to read what the femmes here had to say from their perspective of playing BG2. I find, too often when playing a male PC (especially Human or Elf), I end up playing myself instead of fleshing out a distinct personality. (It's supposed to be Role-Playing, right?) And I am playing through the Anomen romance, true to what I think my PC would want, even if I get squeamish myself. I'm not much of a "flower of romance" in real life ;)
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Post by dragon wench »

Just so that people know, I've posted a thread entitled "Men, Women and BG" on the Speak Your Mind Forum. I don't know if anybody wants to continue the gender-related discussion there, but I am senstive to the fact that this is becoming very unrelelated to to this thread's original title.
If nobody minds, then hey, whatever works. :D
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
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Post by fable »

There certainly seems to be an interesting measure of dissociative socipathic behavior from some of the party members in BG2, and a bit of it is gender-related. (We'll leave Irenicus out of the matter altogether. I can envision Adler, Jung and Freud drawing weapons over who analyzes him first.)

Viconia's the obvious example. Her background leaves her unable to deal socially with people outside her culture. She copes by trading the only positive commodity she can--sex--but can't deal with the results when that, in turn, becomes a channel to the exchange of positive, interactive emotions. She's a sad mess, and far more of a victim than Aerie.

Edwin's perhaps the most overtly sexist of the bunch. But his sexism, like everybody else about him, seems to be nothing but a front for his pride. Edwin is the most powerful at whatever he can do, as he'll be the first to affirm: he's a control freak. That's why becoming a woman, however briefly, is such a shock to him--not because he views women as inferior (essentially, everybody is inferior to Edwin, regardless of gender), as because its a visible sign of his failure. I strongly suspect that's why Edwin turned coat on his late boss, the splinter group of the Shadow Thieves. Edwin can't bear to be on the losing side, since it reflects poorly on his own intellect.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
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Post by C Elegans »

I'm happy to see this discussion has been moved to SYM forum, I hope you all will continue to post there.

@nael and Fable: You both together express the same opinions as I have, so I won't elaborate on that here. :)
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