I believe (IIRC) Nighthawk posted about this a while ago, though I can't seem to find it while searching. He tested the classes against eachother and the fighters came out on top more often than not. If I'm wrong and it wasn't you, Nighthawk, then I apologize. It's an interesting debate. You might want to look at the thread "Idiots vs. Brainers" posted a while back. [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/001082.html"]http://www.gamebanshee.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/001082.html[/url]
I still favor mages in a single fight, though I think the Monk is the most balanced and powerful of the classes. I think the strategies above didn't use the monk or possible magic items very well. There are so many variables here, depending on what the players do, that it's almost impossible to predict. Fun to debate, though.
PC vs. PC battle for supremacy - ends speculation once and for all
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Giles the Sorcerer
- Posts: 79
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A) Stoneskin, Mirror Image, MANTLE. Two, a high assasin can't dispell invis since they can't cast spells.
If we are playing without the cap, then set up contingency and chain contingency with sunfire and wilting, which will NOT be reflected by the reflection cloak as they are not aimed at the other character. They are aimed at the mage (Wilting, which only hits hostiles,) or sunfire, which isn't aimed. You get hit for 3D4 + 1D3 (up to 15D3)
per level assuming you make all your saves. which only a warrior can expect to do.
If we are playing without the cap, then set up contingency and chain contingency with sunfire and wilting, which will NOT be reflected by the reflection cloak as they are not aimed at the other character. They are aimed at the mage (Wilting, which only hits hostiles,) or sunfire, which isn't aimed. You get hit for 3D4 + 1D3 (up to 15D3)
per level assuming you make all your saves. which only a warrior can expect to do.
"Is THAT all you got to say?
"Ya didn't let me finish, I was also gonna tell ya to ...."
"Ya didn't let me finish, I was also gonna tell ya to ...."
Sorry Giles old chap but your wrong. High level assassin with 100 points in DETECT ILLUSION (A special ability avialable to all thiefs) can dispel any illusionary spells. Therefore, your mirror image is useless, mantle would run out in moments, and stoneskin would only stop the first couple of backstabs...
Backstab x7 and WHOOSH! End of Sorcerer
NEXT! 
Backstab x7 and WHOOSH! End of Sorcerer
NEXT! Cartoon Law III
Any body passing through solid matter will leave a perforation conforming to its perimeter. Also called the silhouette of passage, this phenomenon is the speciality of victims of directed-pressure explosions and of reckless cowards who are so eager to escape that they exit directly through the wall of a house, leaving a cookie-cutout-perfect hole. The threat of skunks or matrimony often catalyzes this reaction.
Any body passing through solid matter will leave a perforation conforming to its perimeter. Also called the silhouette of passage, this phenomenon is the speciality of victims of directed-pressure explosions and of reckless cowards who are so eager to escape that they exit directly through the wall of a house, leaving a cookie-cutout-perfect hole. The threat of skunks or matrimony often catalyzes this reaction.
BTW, sunfire, AD's Horrid Wilting, fireball, etc ARE reflected by the cloak. I know what the description says, but someone pointed it out to me and I tested it in the game. They were right. My thief (actually assassin I was soloing) was unaffected whatsoever.
Matti Il-Amin, Paladin, comedian, and expert adventurer. Proudly bearing the colors of the [url="http://www.svelmoe.dk/blade/index.htm"]Blades of the Banshee[/url]
well i've soloed the game with a dual classed
figther celric. 9,20 on core rules and didnt
have any proplem with mages or thiefs. this fight is'nt just down too monks, and mages.
if you can have all of the items in the game
then what about, scroll of magic protection.
or what about my 17 level paladin, cavalier
dispal magic works at double his level.
But it does in the end come down too the person in control of the pc.Not which pc you have. yours ROWDIN
figther celric. 9,20 on core rules and didnt
have any proplem with mages or thiefs. this fight is'nt just down too monks, and mages.
if you can have all of the items in the game
then what about, scroll of magic protection.
or what about my 17 level paladin, cavalier
dispal magic works at double his level.
But it does in the end come down too the person in control of the pc.Not which pc you have. yours ROWDIN
Actually, IIRC, the straight fighters and berserkers won more often than any other class, though it clearly depends on who you're fighting.
The PC makes more of a difference than any other factor, IMHO.
The PC makes more of a difference than any other factor, IMHO.
Matti Il-Amin, Paladin, comedian, and expert adventurer. Proudly bearing the colors of the [url="http://www.svelmoe.dk/blade/index.htm"]Blades of the Banshee[/url]
Cloak of mirroring: probably the AI targeted directly you with the area spells and that is why they were reflected (otherwise it is a strange bug).
Cloak of non-detection: as said earlier, True sight would detect even with non-detection in normal circumstances (hostile targets).
Anyway the thief would have to choose either cloak of mirroring or cloak of non-detection.
Speaking about traps: the sorceror could be just as good with setting 7 skull-traps.
Cloak of non-detection: as said earlier, True sight would detect even with non-detection in normal circumstances (hostile targets).
Anyway the thief would have to choose either cloak of mirroring or cloak of non-detection.
Speaking about traps: the sorceror could be just as good with setting 7 skull-traps.
ok so i read this hole topic (very interesting btw)
and i have seen some player how like to take the challenge pat bou 's sorcerer and vehemence assassin
so is the battle al ready begone or are u all still waiting for a lvl 21 monk?
because i really like to know wich is better a assassin or a sorcerer.
and i have seen some player how like to take the challenge pat bou 's sorcerer and vehemence assassin
so is the battle al ready begone or are u all still waiting for a lvl 21 monk?
because i really like to know wich is better a assassin or a sorcerer.
I don't think either one is 'better' than the other, much like Rail said, It comes down to the person whose controlling the character.
I am biased and would definitely say the Assassin because a couple of reasons:
If someone want's to put the good parts about the sorcerer up as some sort of comparison, it could definitely be good discussion fodder
And as a side note on the True sight and non-detection. Just to clarify, but if you use an invis potion, and have non-detection, the true sight will remove the invis. However, if you hid in shadows as per the thief ability hide in shadows and have non-detection, the true sight will NOT reveal you. No matter if your friend or foe... it will NOT remove you from the shadows.
I am biased and would definitely say the Assassin because a couple of reasons:
- Can hide in shadows thus giving the ability to wait it out, plan for the right moment and wait long enough for spell protections to wear off. Possible problem with stoneskin since it lasts for 12 hours.
- Backstab at x7! Your average high level sorcerer isn't going to be too big on hit points, so a decent backstab with any +3 weapon will take them down a fair punch.
- Poison. This is absolutely deadly. If the sorcerer survives the initial backstab, then the poison will undoubtedly do some nasty damage... and I think (not sure here) but poison will go through stoneskin since stoneskin only stops physical damage.
- Detect Illusion skill will remove all illusions from the sorcerer such as blur, mirror image, and all other illusions, which greatly hampers any sorcerer.
- Traps. Now these babies will eat stoneskin and potentially remove an assassin's biggest hurdle.
If someone want's to put the good parts about the sorcerer up as some sort of comparison, it could definitely be good discussion fodder
And as a side note on the True sight and non-detection. Just to clarify, but if you use an invis potion, and have non-detection, the true sight will remove the invis. However, if you hid in shadows as per the thief ability hide in shadows and have non-detection, the true sight will NOT reveal you. No matter if your friend or foe... it will NOT remove you from the shadows.
Cartoon Law III
Any body passing through solid matter will leave a perforation conforming to its perimeter. Also called the silhouette of passage, this phenomenon is the speciality of victims of directed-pressure explosions and of reckless cowards who are so eager to escape that they exit directly through the wall of a house, leaving a cookie-cutout-perfect hole. The threat of skunks or matrimony often catalyzes this reaction.
Any body passing through solid matter will leave a perforation conforming to its perimeter. Also called the silhouette of passage, this phenomenon is the speciality of victims of directed-pressure explosions and of reckless cowards who are so eager to escape that they exit directly through the wall of a house, leaving a cookie-cutout-perfect hole. The threat of skunks or matrimony often catalyzes this reaction.
Come on now people...you are making the assassin seem like more than a thief...No sorcerer will dispute that they would die from a successful backstab from just about any thief assassion or cut purse. However a sorcerer is not a stupid gnoll thats going to be standing around waiting to get backstabbed. I was willing to consider a monks chances and even a fighter, but an assassin would die inside a single cast of "sphere of chaos" before he could land a hit though a level 17 stoneskin not to mention all other protections... in order to even get the chance to see the sorcerer he has to stop everything and detect invis, attacking would cause he to stop detecting and the sorcerer could just go invis again causing the thief to attempt to detect again..all the while attempting to save vs death inside a sphere of chaos and standing perfectly still to detect invis while taking damage from a morkadainian sword or skeletal warrior...please enough with the assassin untill they get some decent saves.
Stoneskin, stoneskin and stoneskin.
8 skins per spells, up to 7 castings. 56 skins. Even with haste, the assassin will have to be successful on each 2 attacks for 26 rounds.
You don't REALLY beleive you can hit, backstab or poison the sorceror, don't you?
Say I have a Spell Triger of 3 Melf's Acid Arrow. This is casted instantaneously. As soon as you try to backstab me, hoping to one day see my skins wearing off, I'll deliver to your Assassin 6d4 damage per round, for 6 rounds. Average damage per round is 15, so after 6 rounds, you'll have take 90 damages.
On the second round, even if you have it me 2 times (2 skins are gone), I'm still pretty confortable and so I'll prepare another Spell Triger (with the same spells), while you run around the corner to hide again.
Poof you try to backstab me again. Poof another instant 3 Acid Arrows. After 8 rounds of combat, you'll have been inflicted an average of 180 points of damage (up to 288). You cannot save from this.
I can do this a third time with another Spell Triger of 2 Acid Arrows and one Magical Missile if you want to.
Say you take off that cloak of non-detection for that cloak of reflection...
True Sight, Haste, Improved Invisibility, Tenser's Transformation... My AC is -9 and you have -4 to hit me because of imp inv (so a real -13, not an absolute -10), I have 150 hit points, 2 attacks per round with the thaco of a fighter with belt of frost giant strenght and staff of the magi +5 and +2 from tenser's transf (thaco of -7), and I do 1d6+1 damage per hit +9 from str bonus and +2 from tenser's transf (for 1d6 + 12, or an average of 15 per hit).
Oh, and I think I have forgot to say that I'm backed up by 5 Mordenkainen's Swords that are hasted by the same haste spell than me. That you can't backstab me because True Sight would kick in, and that you can't damage me because of my stoneskin (8 skins) and my contiguency of another stoneskin (total of 16 skins).
Depending on your AC, which I'll guess is around -6 or -8, I'll hit you 95% of time (I won't hit on critical misses of 1) with my thaco of -7. Your thaco should be around 0 (thaco of 9 for lvl 23 thief, -4 for str bonus with girdle of frost giant, -4 for magical wpn bonus, and maybe some other bonus), so you'll only hit me around 50% of the time (70% if you succeed to backstab).
My 16 skins would be gone in an average of 16 rounds if you have 2 attacks (or 13 rounds if you manage to backstab the first attack of each round, but then you'll run, hide and sneak, so the time lost doing this would probably bring you close to 18 or 20 rounds... your chances are better fighting me.
In 10 rounds (the time my True Sight last), I'll have hit you 19 times for a total of 285 damages. Oh my! I don't think it is relevant for me to take into account what the 5 hasted Mordenkainen's Sword would have done to you...
Bye, bye, assassin...
Can I say you are dead?
8 skins per spells, up to 7 castings. 56 skins. Even with haste, the assassin will have to be successful on each 2 attacks for 26 rounds.
You don't REALLY beleive you can hit, backstab or poison the sorceror, don't you?
Say I have a Spell Triger of 3 Melf's Acid Arrow. This is casted instantaneously. As soon as you try to backstab me, hoping to one day see my skins wearing off, I'll deliver to your Assassin 6d4 damage per round, for 6 rounds. Average damage per round is 15, so after 6 rounds, you'll have take 90 damages.
On the second round, even if you have it me 2 times (2 skins are gone), I'm still pretty confortable and so I'll prepare another Spell Triger (with the same spells), while you run around the corner to hide again.
Poof you try to backstab me again. Poof another instant 3 Acid Arrows. After 8 rounds of combat, you'll have been inflicted an average of 180 points of damage (up to 288). You cannot save from this.
I can do this a third time with another Spell Triger of 2 Acid Arrows and one Magical Missile if you want to.
Say you take off that cloak of non-detection for that cloak of reflection...
True Sight, Haste, Improved Invisibility, Tenser's Transformation... My AC is -9 and you have -4 to hit me because of imp inv (so a real -13, not an absolute -10), I have 150 hit points, 2 attacks per round with the thaco of a fighter with belt of frost giant strenght and staff of the magi +5 and +2 from tenser's transf (thaco of -7), and I do 1d6+1 damage per hit +9 from str bonus and +2 from tenser's transf (for 1d6 + 12, or an average of 15 per hit).
Oh, and I think I have forgot to say that I'm backed up by 5 Mordenkainen's Swords that are hasted by the same haste spell than me. That you can't backstab me because True Sight would kick in, and that you can't damage me because of my stoneskin (8 skins) and my contiguency of another stoneskin (total of 16 skins).
Depending on your AC, which I'll guess is around -6 or -8, I'll hit you 95% of time (I won't hit on critical misses of 1) with my thaco of -7. Your thaco should be around 0 (thaco of 9 for lvl 23 thief, -4 for str bonus with girdle of frost giant, -4 for magical wpn bonus, and maybe some other bonus), so you'll only hit me around 50% of the time (70% if you succeed to backstab).
My 16 skins would be gone in an average of 16 rounds if you have 2 attacks (or 13 rounds if you manage to backstab the first attack of each round, but then you'll run, hide and sneak, so the time lost doing this would probably bring you close to 18 or 20 rounds... your chances are better fighting me.
In 10 rounds (the time my True Sight last), I'll have hit you 19 times for a total of 285 damages. Oh my! I don't think it is relevant for me to take into account what the 5 hasted Mordenkainen's Sword would have done to you...
Bye, bye, assassin...
Can I say you are dead?
The paladin inquisitor, has the best dispel magic in the game it can dispel all of the lichs magic protection in one hit. That was on level 12, which means level 24, has its
doubled. After that what is or sorcerer, going to do against my 17 level paladin.
THE BEST MAGE KILLER IN THE GAME.
YOURS ROWDIN.
doubled. After that what is or sorcerer, going to do against my 17 level paladin.
THE BEST MAGE KILLER IN THE GAME.
YOURS ROWDIN.
I don't think your inquisitor can survive the wrath of 5 hasted Mordenkainen's Swords.
Also, I can cast spell immunity to divination. Your true seeing is thus screwed totally. For the fun of it, I can cast Stoneskin, for you to dispel one time, a second time... how many dispel do you have? 5? I have 7 stoneskins. Is that enought?
Also, I can cast spell immunity to divination. Your true seeing is thus screwed totally. For the fun of it, I can cast Stoneskin, for you to dispel one time, a second time... how many dispel do you have? 5? I have 7 stoneskins. Is that enought?
It seems those would be sorcerer killers out there want to compare a player controlled sorcerer to the AI npc mages/liches/dragons that they battle during the game...er come on if the npcs actually used thier magic spells with intelligience...including those dragons...no class would be able to fight a lich or dragon at all...
i doubt you would last long enough to land a hit though a "sphere of choas"..especially if your not wielding the holy avenger...funny how you are still thinking a player controlled sorcerer is as easy to hit as an npc....unless of course you can roll 16 and over every hit. (note: this is just about landing a blow). You actually have to hit someone to remove a stoneskin...
Also...lets assume that the sorcere is actually prepared for battle...not just twiddling around waiting to be attacked before casting any kind of spells. If a sorcerer is going to be in duel...i would assume they have thier triggers, contingencies, sequencers set up before wandering into the arena...(if they plan to live)...oh wait i forget you are thinking its an NPC again.
Here we go again. My last post (page 3 on the thread Rail gave the link to above) pretty much covers it - Thanks Rail.
Just a couple additional comments though...
There is currently no way to implement a duel correctly since Invis is handled by fading, not making the character truly invis. to other players. Also, certain spells affect enemies only.
As I said in that other post, items are key. Staff of Magi used properly with correctly implemented Invisibility makes the wielder completely impossible to hit. Cloak of Mirroring reflects any spell that would cause damage (Note: This includes area damage spells and Finger of Death since it does damage in addition to the save result.)
Even if those items are banned, Scrolls of Imprison and Scrolls of Protection from Magic still end the competition. Anyone hit by Imprison is gone...unless they have Protection from Magic or are an Enraged Berzerker. Any mage hit by Protection from Magic is going down -- no more stoneskins or other protections, no invis, no summoning...trigger and contingencies that are already active can still be used but defensive ones will immediately be dispelled.
Since Assasins never really came up last time around...An Assasin (or Kensai/Thief) would have a good shot against most fighters. They would have a tough time against any spellcaster (dozens of stoneskins) or a barbarian (immune to backstab). Still, with a Protection from Magic Scroll to use on the target they could get most spellcasters...if they can see the spellcaster in the first place.
Fighter vs Fighter I thought I had figured out, with the Barbarian coming up as the best and the Flail of Ages/Crom Faeyr as the best weapon combo. Then thanks to WarlordTC I discovered I should have done my own testing on AC rather than believing all the people telling me AC -10 was the best implemented. Higher AC's strengthen the plate wearing fighters and add the potential for shields to be worth using. In addition, the Kensai's better Thac0 may become worthwhile. I haven't gotten to test out the possibilities.
I wish the game was set up to allow on-line duels. It would be interesting. Until the all anyone can do is speculate. I suspect player skill will be at least as large a factor as character type.
[This message has been edited by Nighthawk (edited 02-28-2001).]
Just a couple additional comments though...
There is currently no way to implement a duel correctly since Invis is handled by fading, not making the character truly invis. to other players. Also, certain spells affect enemies only.
As I said in that other post, items are key. Staff of Magi used properly with correctly implemented Invisibility makes the wielder completely impossible to hit. Cloak of Mirroring reflects any spell that would cause damage (Note: This includes area damage spells and Finger of Death since it does damage in addition to the save result.)
Even if those items are banned, Scrolls of Imprison and Scrolls of Protection from Magic still end the competition. Anyone hit by Imprison is gone...unless they have Protection from Magic or are an Enraged Berzerker. Any mage hit by Protection from Magic is going down -- no more stoneskins or other protections, no invis, no summoning...trigger and contingencies that are already active can still be used but defensive ones will immediately be dispelled.
Since Assasins never really came up last time around...An Assasin (or Kensai/Thief) would have a good shot against most fighters. They would have a tough time against any spellcaster (dozens of stoneskins) or a barbarian (immune to backstab). Still, with a Protection from Magic Scroll to use on the target they could get most spellcasters...if they can see the spellcaster in the first place.
Fighter vs Fighter I thought I had figured out, with the Barbarian coming up as the best and the Flail of Ages/Crom Faeyr as the best weapon combo. Then thanks to WarlordTC I discovered I should have done my own testing on AC rather than believing all the people telling me AC -10 was the best implemented. Higher AC's strengthen the plate wearing fighters and add the potential for shields to be worth using. In addition, the Kensai's better Thac0 may become worthwhile. I haven't gotten to test out the possibilities.
I wish the game was set up to allow on-line duels. It would be interesting. Until the all anyone can do is speculate. I suspect player skill will be at least as large a factor as character type.
[This message has been edited by Nighthawk (edited 02-28-2001).]
I don't believe anyone is talking about implementing a duel based on whats working or not working and such...just based on our experiences playing these different classes.
If I was going to duel someone I would damn sure want them to show up as an enemy to me so i can use all my spells...otherwise whats the point? I think we are talking about everything being set up the way it should be..not how the game is...you know?
If I was going to duel someone I would damn sure want them to show up as an enemy to me so i can use all my spells...otherwise whats the point? I think we are talking about everything being set up the way it should be..not how the game is...you know?