the NPC's special talents

[ctid1977]

Fair point, but unnecessary.

And this bucks away from the point I was making, which was that minor tweaks in the rules add to the game and are therefore justified.

[fable]

Originally posted by ctid1977
And this bucks away from the point I was making, which was that minor tweaks in the rules add to the game and are therefore justified.

Oh, I have no problem with that, at all. But the first point you made, at the start of your post, was "A lot of the rules are bent in favour of the NPCs," and then you offered a couple of examples. I find myself in disagreement with this, and explained why the the first example, MInsc, was perfectly allowable within the game's rules.

No offense meant. But I still don't see a lot of the rules being bent in favor of NPCs. How do you mean, btw, that Yoshimo is "a much better thief than he should be?"

[ctid1977]

Oh gods;

Rule Breaks:

His thief stats are higher than an assassin should be allowed I think. But that's fine because he's the only thief.
Minsc shouldn't be allowed to beserk, nor should he be a ranger. Really he should not be allowed to use the spell part of his ranger ability. But I take your point even though it IS a rule break.
Jan should not be allowed to make his own gear.
Anomen should not be dual class as his stats are not good enough.
What kind of kits are Mazzy and Haer Dalis?

Loads of rule breakages. All of which do not detract from the game but add to it.

If you disagree with the train of my argument fair enough, but you are picking up on the odd fact used to back it up, and incorrectly I might add, which is pointless.

[fable]

I think I see where you're coming from, now. You see the party NPCs as figures designed out of a background of rules; and that's fine. After all, that's what RPGs are. But when I look at them, I see them from the perspective of an author, as individuals whose characteristics are expressed within the confines of a universe's rules. It's merely looking through different ends of the same telescope.

So from my perspective, to give an example, Minsc isn't a ranger with too low a wisdom, because the game's designers have already stated that he's lost a lot in that department thanks to repeated blows to the head. I don't see a ranger who beserks; I see a slightly mad character who completely loses himself to violence when the foundation of his universe--Dynaheir first, Aerie, second--dies. The beserk action is merely an expression of this fact in a way consistent with BG2.

Similarly, Jan. You say he shouldn't be allowed to create his own items. That question never occured to me, since nothing told me he couldn't.

You see this as rule breaking. I see this as insightful character creation. So, for instance, if I were creating a character set in the BG universe, I might create a cleric who was trained, Artful Dodger-like, in a F!ganesque group of thieves when little, and broke with them to do something better. He or she would be a dual-class, still adept at spotting and disarming traps, and light on their feet, but unwilling to access pickpocketing skills. However, under great emotional pressure, they might regress to using those skills once more on their own, without player control.

In any case, we are agreed that BG2 is all the better for the presence of these party NPCs. Now, to move onto a more useful point of discussion (and this is open to anyone's reply):

Why the hell isn't anybody save Bioware creating a game that offers this same kind of party interaction and party NPC willfulness? BG2 was a tremendous success, financially and critically; no one argues with this. So where are the clones that provide this feature?

[VonDondu]

Originally posted by fable
How do you mean, btw, that Yoshimo is "a much better thief than he should be?"

I checked it out the other day. If Yoshimo is 10th Level when you meet him, he has 45 more thieving points than an ordinary Bounty Hunter. That is a substantial bonus, but it is fitting. He is THE Yoshimo, feared by all.

For the record, Yoshimo is also missing an "Effect" which has something to do with Special Snares that Bounty Hunters normally have. This makes me suspect that he wasn't rolled up as a Bounty Hunter, but edited to be one. That might be why he has so many extra thieving points; it could have been an oversight. But you should still fear him.

[ARcheR_S_]

Fable, 2 things:

1-> That thing about Viconia was kinda spoilerish (farmer story).......even I didnt knew that, cause I just started my first game with Viconia


2-> You are totally correct about making a similar game.......Im pretty sure the game would sell big time if people would make a game with the same storyline, etc as BG 1 and 2. Maybe we can convince Weimer, Quitch, KensaiRyu and some others to make a new game.............lol........probably waaaaaay to much work, and I cant disagree in that case

[fable]

Originally posted by ARcheR_S_
Fable, 2 things:

1-> That thing about Viconia was kinda spoilerish (farmer story).......even I didnt knew that, cause I just started my first game with Viconia

Damn. Sorry about that, @ArcherS. I'm often told when I suggest that spoiler solutions should be labelled as such, I'm going overboard, so I never thought a spoiler which affects nothing but a little character background would be a drawback. I'll change that post.

2-> You are totally correct about making a similar game.......Im pretty sure the game would sell big time if people would make a game with the same storyline, etc as BG 1 and 2. Maybe we can convince Weimer, Quitch, KensaiRyu and some others to make a new game.............lol........probably waaaaaay to much work, and I cant disagree in that case

Oh, they can use another storyline, as far as I'm concerned. But I don't know why a product using the same gameplay elements wasn't designed in BG2's wake. Good writers are not that hard to find. Sometimes, they're also good programmers. The problem is that all too often good programmers think they're also good writers. Bioware's done a good job in hiring people who know how to write, but I don't think they have a corner on the market. Hell, if someone could only convince John Cutter (Betrayal at Krondor) to stop turning out children's games and return to doing great RPGs--or if we could kidnap Guido Henkel (Planescape; Torment) and force him to stop developing mini-games for handheld devices--I'm sure something could be done.

[The Z]

I think they should make (haha...I'm being a little selfish here but oh well) RPG's with plots that would do decent in a book, or else the game, at points, seems rather bland. I couldn't finish Diablo 2 except in multiplayer because at times it seemed so pointless and boring. On top of that the plot was kinda flat.. Baldur's Gate, and Torment on the other hand kept me going because like a good book, I wanted to finish it. Even Icewind Dale had a plot better than average that had the same effect as Gate and Torment. Would it be too much to ask to hire one writer to polish the dialogue to the standards of Icewind Dale?

[UserUnfriendly]

oh, and that berserk ability is actually boo....

the boo in his quick slots is what gives him the berserk ability...kinda makes you think, hammmmmster is actually a puppet master, like in the robert heinlein novel??

maybe he really is a giant space hamster...

[ctid1977]

Fable;

I agree completely with you. I see it all as beneficial, and adding to the game, despite the rule breaks.

That is my point.