So whats the best?

Mini Me · Post by **Mini Me** » Sun May 04, 2003 10:23 am

(even though it relates to all Forgotten Realms games, I'm posting this purely because its the one im playing at the mo)
((This is probably a repeat post but im anxious to know what you think))
Ok so now we have 5 Baldur's Gate Engine games:
Baldurs Gate (Plu TotSC)
BAldurs Gate 2 (Plus ToB)
Icewind Dale (Plus HoW)
Icewind Dale 2
Neverwinter Nights

We have had about a year at least on each of them to settle in and play a couple of times each...so now what do we think is the best.
I often feel alone when I think NWN was really really bad, but the only good thing was the builder, and only when it was working and didn't shout ACCESS VIOLATION at me repeatedly.

Here is my list of Pros and Cons...let me see yours and let me find out if there is someone who feels the same way as me.

BALDURS GATE/TALES OF THE SWORD COAST
Pros:
Excellent, deep and very interesting storyline
Wilderness areas...not present in any other of these games.
A good variety of things happening
Can be played 3 times over without any hint of boredom...as long as you dont use a walkthrough.
Lots of things you do have a repurcussion later (Kill hunter, get attacked etc)
Having a certain NPC in your party MEANS something (The warrior lady helps out in Flaming Fist Prison, Xzar in the magic shop)

Cons:
A litte slow.
Casters never really become powerful enough...cant grow high enough.
6 discs
Confusing in parts on your first go (not the rules, the story)
Can ruin storyline and get a bit buggered in Durlag's tower (at least i did) without realising.
No rest button on main screen

BG2/TOB
Pros:
Builds on a great story and makes amazing
Strongholds were an amazing idea
As was Watchers keep...a completely unrelated dungeon with another really deep storyline of its own.
More oppurtunites to show alignment without having to kill peasants
NPC conversations - the little stories got me hooked.
Lots of surprises (Skin dancer reappears, Firkraag, Sarevok)
A multitude of strategies to use, can change your way of playing every chapter.
Lots of mini-bosses, not just miniquests...ie the lich in the docks (forget name)
You have to earn many of the NPCs...haerdalis, Aerie

Cons:
No wilderness
Too easy to cheese it.
Things like crom faeyr are frustrating..(O GOD I DIDNT GET THAT GIRDLE IN THE UNDERDARK!)

IWD/HoW:
Pros:
Unexpected storyline....little quest for siren grows...i loved that!
Old places dont get left out once you finish their chapter (gotta keep going back to da hand in dorns deep)
Conversations is bent around your race and class...makes you wanna play over and over to see if it would have been different.

Cons:
A little to linear...story got boring
No NPC storylines, made it a bit bland too
Prologue was boring (more than you would expect in a prologue)

IWD2:
Pros:
3ed rules are fun....although they could explain them a bit better (I started my bard with 10 CHA)
Nice story..not amazing, but good.
Things like monks refusing rewards and Diplomacy make the lack of NPC stories not so bad.
BAttle squares itself could make the game last hours and hours longer

Kegs are fun hehehe
Magic items are quite rare, as they should be. You don't expect to kill some orcs and find a massive stash of uber cloaks and belts and junk.

Cons:
A bit long winded
Once again, no NPC stories
The 'secrets' are too easy to find (the doppelganger incident should go on a bit more in Targos...go and find out about him from people he met...priest only has suspicions, i dont know)
Some stuff is too difficult when you get to it, even though its meant to base it on your level.

NWN (now my big rant)
Pros:
Builder, although insanely buggy and slow, a good idea
Good storyline basis, but needs more work.

Cons:
Interface = stupid, too futuristic, destroys any fantasy element, makes it very bland also.
ONE PERSON??? HOW BORING CAN YOU GET??? It was so monotonous, no new things happening, no different strategies to try, just the same things over and over with the same boring person.
Everything repeated itself. Bosses almost always surrendered, boring you out of your mind with retarded conversations then running away. I actually stopped playing in coldwood when yet ANOTHER orc surrendered...and I didn't even care about finding out the rest of the story.
Quests were too similar - oo find 5 bandits and bring me their ears, oo find me five werewolves and bring me their rings, oo find 4 monsters and bring me their bits, oo find five books...you see where im going? No different kinds of quest that interest you..except henchmen quests.
And the scenery, the scenery was just so bad...everything square and the same as everywhere else. Coldwood looked like Neverwinter wood looked like Charwood. A dragon lives in a cave just like an orc cave. All dead people look exactly the same

SO my order from best to worst is
BG2
BG
IWD2
IWD
NWN
Tell me what you think

Patrick · Post by **Patrick** » Mon May 05, 2003 3:25 am

For the most part, I agree with you.
I think BG as a whole was the most extensive. Icewind dale was a great folow up game. I really like the battle squares in IWD2. I had problems running NWN onmy P.C. so I can not really gage it. I would like to run it on a new P.C.. I also have pool of radiance which ran very bad and I think was poor in comparison to the Black Isle Games. Have you tried PlaneScape Tourment, It has a pretty wierd plot.
I think Black Isle D & D RPG's rule.

Mini Me · Post by **Mini Me** » Mon May 05, 2003 5:29 am

No, i havent tried Planescape...ill give that a go after ive done IWD2

Antimatter · Post by **Antimatter** » Mon May 05, 2003 6:17 am

Out of all those games I've only beaten BG2, and I own all of them other then the original IWD. Even Planescape. However, I have a lot of online hours with NWN, I'm currently into IWD2, and I have minor experience with the rest. In my mind, BG2 is first. I'd almost call it the best game ever (almost). NWN is great once you get online. I only got to Ch2 in the OC and now I use that mainly to test my characters before putting them on a server. It's alright, but it's much more fun playing with other people rather then alone. BG2 was alright alone because the NPCs were like other people. Anyways, IWD2 seems incredibly fun, but I'm not far enough into it to really make a judgement (lvl6 now). Overall, all I can really rate is BG2, and I think that would beat any other game on that list.

Dex · Post by **Dex** » Mon May 05, 2003 11:25 pm

the best of the best

#1 -- I would agree that BG2 was the best. I finished it two or three times. It was hours and hours of entertainment.

#2 -- BG was my second favorite. It was my first RPG and I loved it. I finished it 3+ times.

#3 -- IWD was okay but it was strictly hack and slash. I replayed it last year with the expansion and I got stuck. I did something I should not have done with a low ranking party. I finished the basic game 2 or 3 times.

#4 -- NWN seemed great at first, but it got boring. I never finished it. I want to control a party not a person.

I have not decided where IWD2 falls on my list yet.

Aremah · Post by **Aremah** » Tue May 06, 2003 12:42 am

BG2, of course, was most compelling. I finished it several times on my own (including ToB), then played SoA once and then SoA + ToB in multiplayer (TCP-IP). Huge gameplay time, tons of interesting sidequests and much, much more. What more could anyone want?

Planescape: Torment - amazing game. While it's true that there's TONS of conversation and not really so much action, the story is absolutely twisted (in a good way). I was sucked in from the first minutes and couldn't stop until I finished it 3 times. And the music from the credits knocked me off my feet at that time.

BG - played through it twice (once just BG, and then again from the start with TotSC). Never really had the "I absolutely have to come back and play again" feeling, though (which I did with BG2).

IWD2 - finished only once. Good game, great 3ed rules, great graphics... and repetitive. And kind of boring. Replayability is non existant from my point of view (maybe I'll play my old team in HoF once more, but I doubt it).

IWD - never completed it. Freshly after BG, it just seemed too slow, too boring and the story didn't draw me in one slightest bit.

NWN - my computer isn't good enough for it; I should have a new one soon, so I'll give it a go, but from all the opinions I have heard and read, I'm not sure I'll finish it.

That's my list. The best cRPG for me is still Fallout 2, but that's not Infinity (though it is Black Isle). It's very closely followed by the first Fallout and BG2 (tied for second place).

Coot · Post by **Coot** » Tue May 06, 2003 2:21 am

I can never choose between BG/BG2 and PS:T. Both have stories and characters that you get to care about. PS:T has the insanity that BG lacks, but BG has the romances. PS:T has a far better alignment system, BG has Durlag's Tower and Watcher's Keep. PS:T has Annah, BG has Viconia.
I don't know, tough choice.

IWD2 was, at least for me, a dissappointment. Yes, the graphics are nice, the 3e rules are neat, but, like Aremah says, 'repetitive' and even 'boring' are keywords here. I liked IWD1 a little better. I dunno, maybe because there was all this snow and that was new because there wasn't a lot of snow in BG...

I've heard a lot of negative comments on NWN. Is it really that bad?

lonely wolf · Post by **lonely wolf** » Tue May 06, 2003 4:02 am

#coot- no, I don't think that NWN is that bad, but that's just my opinion.

about the other games: every one likes another game. since i've just heared about BG2, I can say nothing about it

...
but after all, I think that NWN is the best game ever, and IWD2 almost getting there. the other games are in my second or third place. that's my opinion and you can argue with me if you want.

but I can't wait to finish IWD2 and to buy the second NWN game (if there will be such a game, and if it will be as his various game, or better...

)

anyway, every single D&D game is at the top of the PC games

Antimatter · Post by **Antimatter** » Tue May 06, 2003 6:01 am

A lot of people don't like the NWN interface, but I think it works well because it has to quick as there's no pausing online. If you don't like NWN, get online and find a good server. It's much better then the OC. MUCH better!

smass · Post by **smass** » Tue May 06, 2003 7:09 am

I have to agree with Antimatter - NWN was designed as multiplayer game - the single player campaign is really just an introduction to game mechanics. I got only as far as chapter 2. The real fun is online with other players on a great roleplaying core rules server like Argyle. End of commercial.

Of the single player games I liked Planescape the best - finished it in a flurry of very late nights - I just couldn't stop playing until the end.

BGII was great as well - and I played through it many times - making it the game that I have spent the most time with. Great replayability due to the variety of NPCs - truly a great game.

BGI was the great in its own right and in some ways better than BGII. The wilderness areas between towns were a nice touch and I always have more fun with lower level characters. BGII had the better NPC interactions - and that made it more replayable than BGI.

I finished the first Icewind Dale when it came out - a fun hack/slash adventure. I got Heart of Winter about 6 months ago and bought Icewind Dale 2 around the same time. I barely progressed in Heart of Winter before moving on the IWD2 - I really like the 3rd edition rules. I have only played up to the ice castle - where I just get bored with the game. I love the infinity engine - but maybe I am just getting tired of it - the temptation to pause and use cheese is just too great.

Playing NWN online is more to my liking - real time combat - more interesting roleplaying (with other humans for a change) - and the sense of danger and need for strategy on a permadeath server suits my pen and paper style much better.

lonely wolf · Post by **lonely wolf** » Wed May 07, 2003 9:44 am

I agree with both of you. the regular campaign isn't that good, but the game is excelent!

Phantom Lord · Post by **Phantom Lord** » Sat May 10, 2003 4:01 am

Originally posted by Coot
I can never choose between BG/BG2 and PS:T. Both have stories and characters that you get to care about.

Same here.

If PS: T had the same technical features that BG2 has, I'd probably vote 51:49 in favor of PS: T, just because PS: T is totally insane.

PS:T has so many great and unique ideas, NPCs and dialogue like no other CRPG I know. The alignment system is the best I've seen in an AD&D game, as well as the whole triple class character development is quite flexible. And of course there is the eternal question: Is there an armor in the game or is there not ? I'm not going to spoil anyone ...

BG2 has a truly magnificient story, there are many wonderful details to be discovered, great parts of the story are non-linear, NPC interaction is great and with ToB we got some great features on top.

Eriks · Post by **Eriks** » Sun May 11, 2003 1:38 am

The BG games are the best. Have to put them together becase the story is what makes them great. If you absolutely MUST seperate them I would say BG2 with ToB is a slightly better game because of more options/dynamic characters, improved graphics, dual wielding and generally more stuff than the original. BG1 is a classic though and will be amongst my favorites forever.
Icewind Dale II was lots of fun too and I intend to create my ToB party in Icewind Dale 2(or as close to it as possible). I haven't played Icewind Dale 1.

Eriks · Post by **Eriks** » Sun May 11, 2003 1:39 am

p.s. Neverwinter Nights is nowhere near as good as BG/IWD games. Maybe it could compete if you had close friends that had NWN also and you played multiplayer properly, but that is very hard for most people to do.

Eriks · Post by **Eriks** » Sun May 11, 2003 1:41 am

p.s.s. I haven't played Planescape either, it seems too wierd for my liking.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Tue May 13, 2003 1:53 am

I think Shadows of Amn was the best, followed closely by Planescape: Torment. Baldur's Gate is next, followed by Throne of Bhaal. I haven't played Icewind Dale or NWN. I'd rank IWD2 last, but that's not as bad as it sounds. I really liked all of those games.

When it comes to bells and whistles, abundance of items, tightness of plot, overall sophistication, and "everything but the kitchen sink", IWD2 wins hands down. On features alone, it tops them all. The problem is, it's too much of a good thing. I couldn't keep up with all of the names and places and quests without keeping a diary. The puzzles were great, but they brought the game to a standstill. By the time I solved the puzzles, I forgot what I was doing before. There were 200 different swords in the game, which ought to please everyone, but I couldn't decide which one I really wanted to keep. There are a thousand different ways to develop a character, which again, ought to please everyone, but I couldn't decide what I wanted to do with my character. The other problem is that the game never made me take things personally. "We're the heroes, they're the bad guys, and eventually, we'll be powerful enough to defeat them." How suspenseful is that? The voice acting was okay, but I never felt close to any of the characters, and I neither feared nor hated the villains. Sometimes the combat was very difficult, but the main advantage the enemies had was either sheer number, surprise, or the awkward position of my party. If I reloaded and worked around those problems, the battles were a lot easier to win. I can't think of a single monster by name who made an impression on me the way that Firkraag, Bodhi, Kangaxx, Draconis, or dozens of other monsters made on me in BG2 and Throne of Bhaal. The bad-ass goblin in the Palisade was tough; but I can't remember his name. See my point? There were hordes of monsters in IWD2, but few stand out. The White Dragon was a disappointment, and Sherincal was especially disappointing. And finally, the dialogue was just too clever and too self-conscious to let me pretend that everything in the game was real. It was commendable in a literary, post-Modern way, but fantasy role-playing requires the suspension of disbelief, and being "in on the joke" made it more difficult to roleplay. The whole game would be a lot better if a few things were changed: 1) if about half of the items and half of the quests were removed, 2) if the villains did something really, really terrible to your characters at the beginning of the game, and 3) if the dialogue was less "clever". But keep in mind that in spite of my complaints, I admire the game just the way it is. The game is great; I just don't have the energy to keep up with everything.

Baldur's Gate, despite being relatively primitive compared to those other games, drew me into its world and provoked real emotions in me. I was eager to befriend the people I met. I was afraid to strike out on my own and find what was waiting for me around the next corner. I mourned Gorion's death. I laughed at Minsc and Boo. I wanted to solve the mysteries in the story. I wanted to defeat Sarevok. I was even touched by Tamako's misguided devotion to him. I replayed the game with different parties so I could see every little bit of NPC interaction. There wasn't very much, so every bit of it was precious. A little went a long way, but I wanted more. I suppose that reflects a shortcoming in the game, but it also means I cared about the characters, and that's worth a lot. I also really enjoyed the sense that there was a big, wide world out there for me to explore. There's no other game like BG1 in that respect. To be honest, I didn't like the new areas in Tales of the Sword Coast all that much. Durlag's Tower transformed the game from an RPG into a video game, in my opinion. I just wanted to get it over with and get back to the story. The sidequests as a whole had a tendency to dilute the main plot. And the main plot wasn't fleshed out very much to begin with. Maybe the fact that it kept me guessing for so long made it appealing. Or maybe it was so spare, I used my own imagination to build it into something even better. My character was just a small part of a big world, but I really cared about what happened to my character. And every +2 sword made me smile.

Throne of Bhaal is essentially linear (it gives you a couple of choices--do you go to Watcher's Keep before you finish Shadows of Amn, and which sibling do you track down first), but I appreciated its consistency. Shadows of Amn has some really big plot holes. As I pondered my character's final destiny, I had no idea how the designers were going to pull it off, but in my opinion, they succeeded. And the battles were simply spectacular. I don't have any complaints worth mentioning. (Some of it was cheesy and the items were ridiculous, but like I said, they're not worth mentioning.)

Planescape: Torment, for those of you who haven't played it, IS as weird as you can imagine. But surprisingly, it's not "dumb". I didn't think I would like the main character at first, but after playing him for a little while, I really started to like him. And his story--which was very personal and very mysterious--really gripped my imagination. After playing Throne of Bhaal, the combat wasn't very challenging or very interesting. No chain contingency spells, no super-duper tricked out buffing combinations, no summonings, no intricate combat strategies. But that's not what the game is about. The game is about learning about the world around you, thinking your way through problems, and realizing your potential. It's like an interactive novel. More than any other game, your actions have consequences. Yes, it's weird, but it all makes sense. When the game talks about, say, philosophy, it's not simplistic, high-school-level fluff; it's sophisticated and intelligent, without being smart-assed or snooty. You don't feel ashamed for taking it seriously. You feel good about yourself, and you feel like you're accomplishing something. That makes it an exceptional game.

Shadows of Amn is the best. I can think of a dozen ways to criticize it, but it gripped me like no other game I've ever played. Again, I think the way it made me feel personally involved in the story is what makes it so special. The NPCs seem very real to me, and I took great pride in my character's accomplishments. I thought that defeating Sarevok at the end of BG1 was a neat trick, but I always felt that the fight could have gone against me if I hadn't been so lucky. In other words, even at the end of BG1, I still didn't feel like the biggest badass on the Sword Coast. But by the time I finished Shadows of Amn, I knew I was a force to be reckoned with. Yes, the game pushed all the right buttons and said the right things and sucked up to my ego. I loved it.

Buckaroo · Post by **Buckaroo** » Wed May 14, 2003 4:49 pm

Wow Vondondu, that was a mouthful

I'll have to jump on the bandwagon and say that Shadows of Amn is the best in my books. Baldurs gate, pretty good but i'm still working my way through it. Icewind dale 1 will forever remain unfinished and Icewind dale II has failed to demand my attention the same way the BG series have. BG II had excellent interactive NPC's, I found I often kept minsc even if he wasn't the best choice simply because he made me laugh, I loved the stronghold feature, the variety of different things to do, the amount of thought you had to put into it, the many many different ways of approaching the same problem, reputation and alignment that actually mattered, the list goes on.

Icewind dale II has been a mixed bag for me. I really enjoy the graphics and some of the new interface features. I think with time I will prefer being able to level up in different classes as opposed to picking a kit and staying with it (once I figure out how to do it all) I really, really enjoy the way the weapon slots work and the different feats and skills you can choose. That said, IWD II is simply a hack and slash type adventure. If you forget what you're supposed to be doing because of some agonizingly long puzzle, it's not a big deal, you just move on to the next area that's available because that's generally all there is to do. Strategy in battles is thrown out the window when you plan an assault on a group of enemies that you've scouted and suddenly a dozen more appear right in the middle of your party. I don't think I'll replay IWDII simply because I know it'll be the exact same story. SoA also leaves itself open to many interesting mod's due to it's non-linear nature which makes for even more replayability. I think I remember seeing a thread about someone doing SoA in the 3rd edition rules and I really really hope it works out!

Just my 2 cents!

Antimatter · Post by **Antimatter** » Sat May 17, 2003 9:51 am

Yeah, there's a mod to put BG2 into IWD2, which means 3rd ed rules. I just started it (beta) and I'm still in the first dungeon. I hate the first dungeon worse then anything else in the world, so it's taking awhile to get through it

. It is pretty interesting so far, though. If you wanna check it out you can go to http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/bgat ... index.html and you can email him if you wanna try it. I think he's allowing everyone beta test it if they want to.