The Silverymoon Six

[Jatsu]

Well now, it’s been almost a year (!!) since I made my last post here, and I was almost ready to start playing but I never did

Well, I'm pretty well set on my party, I'd appreciate any suggestions anyone has about any aspect of the characters, but for now, since I actually have seven, and I need to eliminate one, I'm going to skip the skills and feats until that is figured out.

Oriseus Zora
Aasimar Fighter 4/Paladin X
STR 18, DEX 10, CON 18, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 18
Tank with all weapon points in Large Swords

Keben
Half-Orc Fighter 4/Barbarian X
STR 20 DEX 16 CON 18 INT 4 WIS 16 CHA 2
Tank with weapon points in Axes (or Greatswords?), and Hammers

Sepoto Masambe
Human Monk
STR 18 DEX 18 CON 16 INT 3 WIS 18 CHA 3
I'd like this guy to be a Mage Killer, Sniper, Scout, and Tank

Nicos Nathos
Human Ranger(1)/Rogue X
STR 14 DEX 18 CON 14 INT 14 WIS 10 CHA 6
Obviously the Thief of the party. He will also be used for sneak attack, with dual short swords

Jatsu Oaksilver
Half-Elf Fighter 4/Ranger X (Mostly Archer/Scout)
STR 16 DEX 18 CON 14 INT 12 WIS 12 CHA 5
Similar roles to the monk, Mage Killer, Sniper, Scout, this character would be used often with Nicos the Rogue as a tag scouting team to take down magic users and infiltration and the like

Aeron Zora
Human Morninglord
STR 16 DEX 10 CON 16 INT 4 WIS 18 CHA 12
He's a cleric, he heals, and he’s a bombardier

Sandrue Stamaraster
Human Sorcerer (Possibly Aasimar?)
STR 10 DEX 12 CON 12 INT 16 WIS 8 CHA 18
This character is the leader of the party, and as such he needs a high int (perhaps even higher) to handle the skill load of Diplomacy, Alchemy, and all the caster skills to boot

So tell me watcha think, personally I'm having a real hard time wrapping my brain around leaving any of these guys in the dust, but it has to be done

[Galuf the Dwarf]

My advice...

Not too bad, I'd honestly have to say, but I really feel I must make some suggestions.

Oriseus:
I wouldn't suggest that you lower Int and Wis, especially the latter. For a Paladin, especially an Aasimar, I would suggest you allocate his stat points like this:
16 Str
10 Dex
16 Con
10 Int
12 Wis (initial amount due to race)
16 Cha
Sure, that might not sound too powerful, but you'll be able to increase Cha to 18 (for better Diplomacy and saving throws at later levels, thanks to the extra stat points he'll recieve every 4 levels) and Con to 16 by the time you're in Heart of Fury mode.

Keben:
Again, don't make the lesser stats too low. I would at least have Int at 8 and Cha at 4 at the lowest. Definitely have Str at 20. For starters, have Dex and Wis at 12, and Con at 16. Like above, you'll be able to increase them later (I'd mainly suggest increasing the Dex for Armor Class). Also, you might want to go with all levels in Barbarian, since a six-person party may only allow to have up to a few levels above 20 by the end of the game in Heart of Fury mode.

Sepoto:
Same as above. Don't make the least important stats too low.

Nicos:
I would suggest that you have Nicos just be a vanilla Rogue. If you have his rogue levels more than one level apart from his Ranger level, he'll experience an Experience penalty, which is NOT good, trust me. Also, you will want someone who can bluff for you, either this character or your Sorceror. That WILL come in handy here and there. Also, you might want to have this character have 16 for alot of points in all of his skills, especially Search (which finds traps) and Disarm Device (as necessary as Search, of course).

Jatsu: My advice here is to go with either this character of Sepoto, since you can only have 6 characters in a full party. Sorry to break that to you.

Aero: Not too bad, but to start, I would suggest:
12 Str
10 Dex
12 Con
10 Int
18 Wis
12 Cha

Sandrue:
Sorcerors can be tough. You need enough Cha for spellcasting (which you had the right idea with), enough Dex for a high Armor Class (which would mean you'd need around 16 or 18) and decent Int for Spellcraft, Knowledge (Arcana) and Alchemy checks.

In this case, I might almost suggest that you go with Drow for race, seeing as they get +2 to Dex, Int, and Cha. Sure, you get -2 to Constitution and a -1 modifier to attack and saving throw rows in daylight. Not that bad, right? Also, remember that you won't have as diverse of a selection of spells as a Wizard (which male Drow have as their favored class, in case you didn't know already). Still, you'll be able to cast more Magic Missiles or the like per day.

Overall, not horrible, but I do suggest that you raise the Int for many of your characters for these reasons:

1) More skill points. This way, they'll be able to have more points in the skills they'll need to do well in the game. This really helps with arcane spellcasters (Wizards or Sorcerors), Bards, and Rogues. Clerics, Druids, Wizards, Sorcerors, and Bards also need skill points in Concentration in order to get good Concentration checks when casting spells in combat. Rogues with high lots of skill points can have more points in their class skills, to help them pick locks and pockets, find and disarm traps, and stay hidden if you try to make a sneak attack in combat.

2) High initial scores in Alchemy, Knowledge (Arcana), Spellcraft, Alchemy, Disable Device, Search, and many other Int-based skills mentioned in the manual.

Hope I sound helpful, and not detrimental in any way.

[Jatsu]

Re: My advice...

Firstly, I'm not going to play HoF.

Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
Nicos:
I would suggest that you have Nicos just be a vanilla Rogue. If you have his rogue levels more than one level apart from his Ranger level, he'll experience an Experience penalty, which is NOT good, trust me.

Thats not true, he's Human remember?

Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
Jatsu: My advice here is to go with either this character or Sepoto, since you can only have 6 characters in a full party. Sorry to break that to you.

Break what to me dude? The whole reason I created this thread was because I have seven characters and one has to be eliminated in order to play the game. I'm no newbie here, I've played every IE game save for this one My main question is, WHICH one do I go with?

Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
In this case, I might almost suggest that you go with Drow for race, seeing as they get +2 to Dex, Int, and Cha. Sure, you get -2 to Constitution and a -1 modifier to attack and saving throw rows in daylight. Not that bad, right? Also, remember that you won't have as diverse of a selection of spells as a Wizard (which male Drow have as their favored class, in case you didn't know already). Still, you'll be able to cast more Magic Missiles or the like per day.

Drow? Dude I appreciate the suggestion, but a Sorc is already a level behind on some/most spells, being Drow would just put him effectively 3 levels behind a Wizard.

Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
Hope I sound helpful, and not detrimental in any way.

It was indeed quite helpful, although I disagree with some of it

[Mirk]

my suggestion would be to "combine" the rogue and archer roles. i have done so VERY effectievely with a halfling ftr4/rogue, str 12, dex 20, con 12, int 16, wis 10, cha 6. (or even int 18, cha 4). start as a rogue, then the 4 ftr levels, then continue as a rogue.

gave him specialisatuion in bows and crossbows, dirty fighting, improoved critical, etc. since you have another scout, you can max out Search, Disable Divice, Open Lock, and even Pick Pocket, and still have enough points for the stelth skills. you can make him tiefling or human, if you like.

as to the sneak attack, i found it not too usefull, as much as i tried. in my expierience, it is better to add 3 rogue levels to a frontliner char (your paladin or barbarian), and recieve the benefits (evasion if wearing light armour, 2d6 sneak, uncanny dodge, maybe hamstring) rather than go with a high sneak attack. actually, if needed, mine low-str rogue can be buffed-up and set in for the one-uber-important-sneak of the day.

[Galuf the Dwarf]

Jatsu: Yeah, the Drow Sorceror idea might not work. You mind telling me which other ideas of mine that wouldn't work? I was curious.

[Jatsu]

Its no big deal man, I just like my Pallies stats the way they are, and I don't need a vanilla rogue, I may do what most people are suggesting, and combine the rogue and archer roles (one person on this forum, and others on other forums).

However, I am going to raise the Int/Wis/Cha on most of my characters like you have suggested.

Really though I could also drop the Monk or the Barb, either one could serve as a tank.

[Mirk]

the nimber of tanks/straight melly chars depends on your playing style. i started with 3 spellcasters (sorc, cleric, druid), rogue/archer, duel-weilder & 1 tank, and found that i never use up even half the spells, so i started anew with 2 tanks (pal/ftr and barb/ftr), 1 duel-weilder, 2 spellcasters (sorc/bard and monk/cleric). this is much more to my taste. i use spellcasters in the tougher fights, while they usually don't have to do more than provide missile support, while the 3 melly chars do most of the killing. i also like it better for the "ambush" situations, where you end up surrounded, this way i can still bring the fight to the big-boss-spellcaster, while leaving a tough enough guy to deal with his fighterish goons. its really up to you!

[Jatsu]

What I really need to know is how effective Sneak Attack is. I mean it seems to me that if a full rogue isn’t really needed and a few levels in the class and maxed out thief skills are enough, then the remaining purpose of the Ranger 1/Rogue X is as a damage dealer, using sneak attack. Now if I was to combine the Archer/Thief roles into one character, then that character would have a lot less rogue levels, and more fighter or ranger levels to make him more efficient with the bow.

I’m also not sure how situational sneak attack is. Like, instead of the rogue sneak attacking I could use the monk, who can deal plenty of damage himself, but how comparable is it to sneak attack? If I drop this character (the Ranger 1/Rogue X) then my party would look like this (simplified and in formation)

Fighter 4/Paladin X
Fighter 4/Barbarian X

Monk
Morninglord

Rogue 3/Fighter X (or however many levels of rogue that character would take)
Sorcerer

[Jatsu]

I’ve done some more thinking, and I think I’ve devised a balance between the whole physical/spell casting, a way to maximize my characters and not spread them thin. If I go with this party, the monk will be eliminated.

Oriseus Zora
Aasimar Fighter 4/Paladin X
STR 18 DEX 10 CON 18 INT 8 WIS 10 CHA 16
-Tank #1

Keben
Dwarf or Half-Orc Fighter 4/Barbarian X
STR 18 DEX 14 CON 20 INT 6 WIS 14 CHA 4 (if Dwarf)
-Tank #2
Shield Dwarf or Half-Orc?
I know I said I don’t like the short races, but I forgot that I love to play dwarves

Aeron Zora
Human Morninglord
STR 14 DEX 10 CON 16 INT 8 WIS 18 CHA 10
-Healer, Bombardier

Thazar-De Nathandem
Tiefling Ranger/Rogue (Rogue 10/Ranger X or Ranger 5/Rogue X?)
STR 14 DEX 20 CON 14 INT 14 WIS 10 CHA 6
-Thief, Scout, Mage Killer, Sniper
This character will be an archer but he will jump into combat and sneak attack with small blades/weapon finesse when the opportunity arises. Hopefully with 14 in STR and CON, he can handle scouting missions solo, at least if he’s buffed.

Fighter would allow me to go with bow specialization, but Ranger would help with Hide/Move Silently upgrades when I’m taking levels in it, also there’s Wilderness Lore to consider. How useful is Wilderness Lore?

Meleghost Gedreghost
? Wizard
STR 10 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 18 WIS 10 CHA 10
-Bombardier, Summoner, Loremaster, Alchemist
This character would take a lot of the load off of Sandrue, by taking care of Knowledge, Alchemy, and Summoning.

Not sure on race, Human is cool but would be behind on scrolls, I’m open to anything, even multiclassing, for this build. I was thinking of choosing a Ranger (or Druid) over this character, but as far as I can see based on the rest of the party, the summoning (Druid can summon but not as good as a Wizzy) lore, and alchemy are more important.. It’s something to think about though.

Sandrue Stamaraster
Human Sorcerer
STR 10 DEX 12 CON 14 INT 14 WIS 8 CHA 18
-Bombardier, Diplomat
Thus leaving Sandrue free to focus on Diplomacy, Bluff, and Evocation.

I lowered the INT so I could raise the CON since I wont be needing as many skill points anymore, but is 14 INT optimal for a Diplomat?

[Mirk]

her's couple of pionts:

ftr4/brbX - dwarf is better for this, for his racial bonuses, and better stats.

morninglord - consider adding 1 monk level here, if not for anything else than for the two exellent monk items in the game - SPOILER

sash of black raven and bands of focus


ranger/rogue - i think you have to decude here, what you want him to be - finesse melly char or ranged weapons char, not both. i believe the high dex multiclass in rogue/warrior build is an exellent idea, but he has to specialise in one area only, actually, one combat and one out of combat area. i actually have two of these in my party:

human rog3/ran3/monk3/ftrX - 2-weilding & scout, 16/18/14/12/10/6, some intimidate, since he sometimes is scouting around and initiates aoutomatic dialog.

halfling ftr4/rogX - ranged (bows & crossbows) & thieving (pickpocket, search, disable, open locks), 12/20/12/18/10/4. sometimes he is heavyly buffed-up for the uber-important sneak attack.

but then, i just love these builds. you can effectievely combinr the two, just don't expect him to be the uber-killer. either way, i suggest to take the 4 ftr levels.

as to wildernes lore - i'd leave it to the barbarian, it's a clas skill for him. it's usefull once or twice in the game, but i just like using it in every new area.


your arcane casters look nice, no problem there.

my c2

[Jatsu]

Originally posted by Mirk
ftr4/brbX - dwarf is better for this, for his racial bonuses, and better stats.

You know I found out your so right, just +2 to Saving Throws vs. Spells and Spell-like effects alone makes Dwarf a solid choice. Essentially, it’s Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will and Great Fortitude in one! I guess, in a way, you get 3 extra feats at first level with Shield Dwarves.

Originally posted by Mirk
ranger/rogue - i think you have to decude here, what you want him to be - finesse melly char or ranged weapons char, not both.

I know a guy who in his last game built a ranger/rogue and just started her in a HOF game- she finished up normal play at about rogue 10/ranger 5. She was a low str (12) high dex (22 at the end) build and she took: dash, dirty fighting, improved critical, rapid shot, weapon finesse and SW small blade 2. She was an archer and dual weilded small blades (weapon finesse) but she also dual weiled a particularly nasty hammer with a short sword in the off hand as well and also used a great sword and halbred occasionally. She took a level of rogue- then a level of ranger- then a level of rogue- then a level of ranger then 8 levels of rogue then the rest in ranger. She took care of all the thiefly work including scout and find disarm traps and she was 4th in number of kills and tied for 4th in total experience for the party at games end.

So I think I will essentially follow this path.

[Mirk]

good luck then, just don't take weapon finesse - it only works with 1 weapon, not duel-weilding.

[Kayless]

Originally posted by Jatsu
What I really need to know is how effective Sneak Attack is. I mean it seems to me that if a full rogue isn’t really needed and a few levels in the class and maxed out thief skills are enough, then the remaining purpose of the Ranger 1/Rogue X is as a damage dealer, using sneak attack. Now if I was to combine the Archer/Thief roles into one character, then that character would have a lot less rogue levels, and more fighter or ranger levels to make him more efficient with the bow.

Take it from me, Sneak attack rocks (at least that's my memory of it, since I haven't played IWD2 in awhile). My old Rng1/RogXX could do almost as much damage as my tanks when he was Sneak Attacking. Sneak Attack is also easy to do (unlike old school backstab).

Personally I like to use rogues as supporting melee characters rather than as archers (letting a paladin or barbarian take the brunt of the attack while the rogue sneaks behind and flanks enemies). But to each his own.

[Jatsu]

W00t! Kayless is back!!
Hey man, you know, what I could do, is I could create Nicos Nathos the Ranger 1/Rogue X how I originally planned, and use him as melee Sneak Attack support as you suggested... if I did this, then I would still need an archer.

The way that would figure in is this... Wizard scrolls usually come by late in the game respective to the level of the Wizard. So the Wizard will often be too far ahead in levels for the scrolls to keep up with. In accordance with this, I could use a build such as...

Faelar Laelithar
Moon Elf Fighter 4/Wizard X
STR 10 DEX 20 CON 14 INT 18 WIS 8 CHA 6
Skills: Concentration, Spellcraft, Alchemy, Knowledge: Arcana
Feats: Rapid Shot, Weapon Specialization: Bows, Spell Focus: Enchantment, elemental feats, Dodge

[Mirk]

the ftr 4/ wiz X is a solid build, especially if you have another arcane spellcaster as your "main" nuker. there is, however, one tactical issue to address here - countarary to the rogue/fighter archer, who's ONLY job in combat (and especially in the first rounds, when it really counts) will be to shoot the best-suited missile at the most threatening target, the wizard/ftr will be tempted to use a spell (maybe not a direct damage spell, but a self- or party-enhacing or protecting spell), and start shooting then, thus relinquishing one of the main advantages of the dedicated snipers. the advantage of the rogue for the sniper role is that there is no use for the rogue abilities once combat is joined.

@kayless: it is indeed great to see you back on the boards! now, if you can plese explain HOW did you manage to get useful results from the sneak attacks in IWD2, because i've been really trying to...

[Gherald]

Originally posted by Jatsu

Aasimar Fighter 4/Paladin X
STR 18 DEX 10 CON 18 INT 8 WIS 10 CHA 16

Nah, try this:

STR 18 DEX 10 CON 18 INT 3 WIS 11 CHA 20

The whole point to an Aasimar Paladin is to have CHA as high as possible, so ALLWAYS UPGRADE CHARISMA when you get a new attribute!

The *only* point to having an Int higher than 3 is if you are going to have more than 12, because otherwise it doesn't affect skill points! All a Paladin really needs is Concentration, anyway, for maximized attacks feat.

Wis 11 is actually a little on the low side, but there is a ring of +5 wisdom you can get later. Anyway, Cha is much more important for pallys than wisdom.

If you are going to use the potion of -1 DEX, +2 WIS on your Paladin, then take 11 DEX and 10 WIS instead. But your Morninglord could probably benefit more from that WIS, so give your morninglord 11 DEX.

Dwarf or Half-Orc Fighter 4/Barbarian X[/b]
STR 18 DEX 14 CON 20 INT 6 WIS 14 CHA 4 (if Dwarf)

Well, you would do better with a shield dwarf with:

STR 18, DEX 16, CON 20, INT 3, WIS 18, CHA 1

Shield Dwarf or Half-Orc?

Shield Dwarf = +30 HP, +2 saves vs spells
Half-Orc = +1 attack, +2 damage

I'd take the shield dwarf, personally, but they are pretty comparable.

Human Morninglord
STR 14 DEX 10 CON 16 INT 8 WIS 18 CHA 10

Nay, your paladin can do the UD turning (which btw, is useless in HoF mode), so your cleric should take 3 CHA.

Here's my morninglords' stats, he is much better at melee:

STR 18 DEX 10 CON 18 INT 3 WIS 18 CHA 3

Because he's human, you'll be able to up not just Concentration, but Spellcraft as well. Be sure to get spellcraft above 14 so that 14 minus 4 (your negative int modifier) = 10, which will let you take Spirit of Flame. Veeeery nice for those 500 fire damage Lathander domain spells.

Tiefling Ranger/Rogue (Rogue 10/Ranger X or Ranger 5/Rogue X?)
STR 14 DEX 20 CON 14 INT 14 WIS 10 CHA 6

Hmm, well STR is pretty high for a rogue, I'd put it down to 8 or 9. CON should be 18, thats critical. INT 14 is decent but you really should move that WIS and CHA into 18 INT. Make the CHA 3, he doesn't need it.

But why are you using a Tiefling if you don't want 20 INT to start? Thats pretty ridiculous if you ask me. Take an Elf, since you don't seem to care about CON. Then this guy won't be 1 level behind everyone else (you do know how level adjustment works, right?).

Wilderness lore has no practical use, especially if you have already been through the game once. Your Barbarian could take Wilderness lore if you really want to fool around with it, but I recommend you give the Barbarian concentration, so he can get maximized attacks feat....

If you really want a full Rogue fighter I suggest going with a Rogue(4), Fighter(4), Rogue(x)

Meleghost Gedreghost
? Wizard
STR 10 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 18 WIS 10 CHA 10

A CHA 10 Wizard? May as well through those ability points into the wind. Move that CHA into CON and WIS. CON should be 18, even for a wizard!

You might be interested in the very well-known and effective Wizard/Rogue build:

Drow Rogue(1) / Conjurer(x)
8 STR 20 DEX 16 CON 20 INT 8 DEX 5 CHA

Because of his super-high INT, this guy could take care of all the Search, and Disable Device Rogue skills, so you wouldn't need a full class Rogue and could take an additional sorceror, or perhaps even a Battleguard of Tempus cleric/tank if you prefer tanks to casters.

The thing to note is theiving skills just aren't as critical in IWD2 as in BG. This guy will actually theive more easily than Imoen did!

Human Sorcerer
STR 10 DEX 12 CON 14 INT 14 WIS 8 CHA 18

Ah, the diplomat (make sure you talk to NPCs with this character at all times!). Cha 18, nice. Int 14? Thats a little low... I would take 18 so you can put skill points into Bluff, Diplocmacy, and Intimidate (yes Intimidate, even though its cross class!). I also recommend you take the bullheaded feat from the very start, to offset your low Intimidate and -1 will throws in one shot. Maybe you're growing tired of recommendations by now, but here's what I would suggest for this sorceror/conversationalist/party leader of yours:

Aasimar Sorceror
STR 8 DEX 8 CON 18 INT 18 WIS 8 CHA 20

Allways upgrade CHA, beacause that will make your sorceror rock. Put feats into Evocation and greater Evocation after Bullheaded, and in Combat casting after that, then later take stuff like Spirit of Flame.

Be sure this character maxes out Bluff, Diplo, Intimidate, Concentration, and Spellcraft as much as possible.