Do bards cut it in BG2 or IWD

[polaris]

*I* wasn't the one being dense or nasty here. The bard is a poor choice for PARTY play becuase he doesn't do any one thing well. If you want to see how an adventuring party ought to be put together, look at a modern A-Team or Seal Team. Every member is extreemly good at one thing, and pretty good at something else.

Hence, for PARTY PLAY, dual class characters are simply better. This is perfectly good RP by the way since sucessful parties *would* resemble commando teams.

Seems to me someone is a bit sore.

-Polaris

[two]

Originally posted by polaris:
<STRONG>*I* wasn't the one being dense or nasty here. The bard is a poor choice for PARTY play becuase he doesn't do any one thing well. If you want to see how an adventuring party ought to be put together, look at a modern A-Team or Seal Team. Every member is extreemly good at one thing, and pretty good at something else.

Hence, for PARTY PLAY, dual class characters are simply better. This is perfectly good RP by the way since sucessful parties *would* resemble commando teams.

Seems to me someone is a bit sore.

-Polaris</STRONG>

Well, it's just not as clear-cut as you would like it to be. For example, would you rather have a party of 6 with 3 Bards (plus three other characters) or 3 F/Ms(plus three other characters)? Both would be insanely powerful. But the party with 3 Bards would be much easier to run; you just set them Bards a-singing (bard songs stack) and get -12 on ac and +12 to hit for everyone in the party. This breaks the game totally.

For something that melee can't handle directly, have the bards cast spells between songs.

The point is -- again -- both Bards and F/M are nasty, gnarly, mean, vicious -- when played correctly. Sounds like you don't like bards -- fine. Don't play 'em. But since Bards are powerful enough to solo (in fact it's quite easy), it makes perfect sense that they would be useful in a party. If I can kill x ALONE, I can at least chip in when the party takes it on.

Almost every class is useful if played right. The only exception? Er.... I don't know, don't think there is one. Even a BeastMaster, dual-wielding clubs, can lay down a spanking on most baddies. Gnasher+Blackblood=ow.

[polaris]

Two,

I have to disagree. If a class does 'x' by itself, it should be great ina group *sounds* logical enough. Too bad it isn't so. What a lot of soloers forget that in PARTY play, the XP is split up. That means you don't get 'Use Any Item' for the bard until the very end of SoA (if then). Other than songs (which I still feel are overrated because it takes the Bard out of the picture), anything a Bard can do, some other dual combo can do better in a party.

You make an interesting point about how the songs stack (they should not IMO), but that only seems to be good against solo enemies that don't summon a lot of critters. Otherwise can we say SITTING DUCK with regard to your three singers? I knew we could. The only creatures off hand that meet this criteria are most liches (I use Sunray...works every time), SoA dragons (but emphatically NOT Draconis or Azi), and perhaps a couple of others I am forgetting. In all a pretty small list....so I am not impressed.

-Polaris

[Arocle]

Polaris: I wasn't being sore. I just thought it was ridiculous and extremely childish that you think that your and only your playing style and opinions are correct. *lol* You say bards suck as team members. I couldn't disagree more. They are at their best in a team when they can suplement others.

I knwo how a multiclass fighter\wizard works and I much prefer bard over one. You said that party is like a swat team. No wonder that they are so bad. What if the team loses the only one who knows how to operate a computer. Duuh! Wouldn't it be useful to have another who could use it even a little?

It seems that you are the one being a bit sore, 'cause I (we) don't think the same way you do. Get over it, or you'll have some real problems later in life if you try to convince other people to your mindset as vigorously as you do now.

[polaris]

For not being sore, you are sounding pretty sore and childish to me. *sigh* I know I am not convincing you, but try both and see what I mean. In a typical team, you have backups (try READING what I post) which is why I like Duals. What you DON'T DO is try to have someone do everything (the bard).

-Polaris

[polaris]

One last thing Arocle. You obviously DON'T know what I am talking about or you wouldn't have said that you know how a multiclass F/Mu worked.

I never talked about using a Multiclass, and I never said that a multiclass was better than the bard.

I said the F/Mu *DUAL* Class was better...and it is. Try reading what I post and responding to that rather than what you want to respond to.

-Polaris

[Arocle]

*rofl* As I have said in both of my posts I have tried both of them and played through the whole game with them and on top of that I base my opinions. And you admited it yorself. You Are trying to convince me that bards suck as team members.

And why te hell does my team have to be übersuccesful? I just need it to get through obstacles. Perhaps they get killed or sumthin'... No matter. I wanna play a party I like! Not a party which in theory is the most killermuchpower-team. That isn't fun, and that's what this is all about. It seems that you're just trying to beat the game. No prob with that if that's what you like.

BTW: I have every right to be childish 'cause I am a child. But in this case, I really aren't the one being a child. No offense.

[Arocle]

No need to get harsh... Still I have played through the game even with a dualed fighter\mage, so I Know what I'm talking about. And this is all about having fun, so get over it.

[Arocle]

And why shouldn't I try getting a character who can do a bit of everything? If I want one and think that it does a much better job than a your so-called backup, then what's your problem? Sheesh....

[Gruntboy]

Calm down boys and girls. Each to their own.

The bard's strength is that he/she is "jack of all trades, master of none".

What other character can cast spells but wear chainmail, can wield any weapon but not well, cannot hold a shield/helm but can play musical instruments, can support an entire party in battle or hold their own ground?

A character who has the highest lore value and can pick pockets. They can have a familiar.

Don't get me wrong, I like Fighter/mages, but they do different job to bards.

[polaris]

Gruntboy,

Well said, but I have a minor nit. The bardic armor advantage dissapears by the end of SoA. A Bladesinger (F/Mu dual or multi) can wear drow chain, elven chain (suldenssar) or (best of all) Bladesinger chain and still spellcast.

In ToB, Elven Chain +1 is common as dirt and you can spell cast in that too.

-Polaris

[Tyrael Battlerager]

i must honestly say that in BG1/TOSC i hated bards... got a poor impression from that worm garrick i guess but in BG2 they rule especially blades

[Path of Wind]

I think people miss something. I played couple of games with dualed F/M and M/F. By the way, totally different experience, though one thing I came to realize: this class (both variations), although fun to play, IS NOT UNIQUE. That come from one thing: you either cast spells, or you fight. You cannot do both(with one exeption: Time Stop). What mage gaines being lvl.9 F when he casts spells? Nothing. What lvl.9-12 Fighter gaines from being Mage when fights? Very little he cannot gain by potions, or other mages/clerics spells. The beauty of F/M is that he is versatile - he can do both depends what situation dictates. But that exactly what bard is! Universal approach! Spells? O'k. Cannot cast but can read. Fight? Very well. Blur^3, haste, belt of strength, -decent fighter. Actually, Haer'Dalis once saved my day. My main PC was almost down, I put him into defensive spin with Celestial Fury, he held on until PC was healed (I run out of potions). They both (bards and F/M) universal and useful.

[Path of Wind]

Oh, by the way, the bard song is not overrated. Where do you think it come from to D&D? From centuries of human history! Look at all ancient, medevial armies: they all head a company or two of guys with drumms and flutes and other things. It in a human nature, these sounds help to forget fear and other negative emotions. Do you know what happens in the plane when paratroopers are about to jump, especially from ultra-small heights (100-300 meters)- the VERY loud siren sound - the most primitive variation of bard song, for the same reason - helps to fight fear. So, from role-playing perspective, especially if you try to imagine that the battle on computer screen happens in reality, bards are very useful party members.

[polaris]

Path,

You are wrong about F/Mus. They can spell cast and fight in the same round. If you have a fast spell (Melf's Minute Meteors for example) and some item that helps with spell casting time (Staff of the Magi for example), you can get that spell off in zero segments and STILL get your full 4 attacks off in that round (assuming improved haste). Combine this with Aclarity and Timestop, and the Bard comes out a distant second.

Also, I have one word for your singing bard....TARGET. That is *also* a historical fact (just ask the Black Watch and what the German snipers did to their pipers).

-Polaris

[Path of Wind]

Melf's Minute Meteor is not a good example, even though you can shoot 5 of them per round. Mage can do it extremly well without being fighter, in this case I even would prefer cleric/mage in fact, with all cleric self-stat increasing spells. But again, if you casted Melf's Minute, all your other weapons are not accessible. And in some situations you actually need only Melf stuff, but again - F/M excellent universal class. As well as bard. Besides, it's hard to call blade with AC "- a lot" a TARGET.
As for German snipers, I know, that why I did not included modern armies in my example.
We live in time of tech and chemistry, and there are a lot of other things to boost ones' soldiers moral.

[ 07-24-2001: Message edited by: Path of Wind ]

[polaris]

Path,

Some other points:

1. Of course a F/Mu and Mu/F are duals are different! They are *completely* different. The first is a combat mage. The second is a weak fighter with a little magic on the side (and much weaker overall IMO).

2. What does a Mu get for being a level 9 fighter while spell casting?

a. Improved potions (like potions of Invunerability which give an amazing AC bonus and +5 to your saves).

b. MUCH BETTER saves (especially vs death).

c. MUCH HIGHER HITS. This is especially important against PW Kill and other death attacks.

d. (Related to c.) Time to be flexible. If a straight mage messes up, it is game over because outside of his magic, he is weak. The F/Mu can at least fight as well (generally) as a straight fighter. This is important for such things as Mislead and Simiralicrum (sp?)

-Polaris

[polaris]

Path,

Using modern armies is perfectly acceptable. What parties lack in tech, they make up for in magic. My criticism there is sound.

OK, how about the humble magic missile. You can fire that off and STILL get your full attack that round EVERY ROUND with a F/Mu.

-Polaris

[Path of Wind]

Wait a second, why M/F is a weak Fighter with a little Magic? If you dual your mage even at lvl.9 (to get that nice Breach spell, actually 2 of them since you can start as a specialist Mage as a first class), than very soon your fighter is no much for any other normal fighter, just because of stoneskins. Can you imagine F with 4-5 stars in Bow, starting shooting Arrows of Piercing or Poison after spell trigger went off with Greater Malison and Breach? This guy is just unstoppable fighting machine, whereas F/M is unstopabble spell caster. It just the style you prefer: start with strong magic, and if needed, finish off the enemy with a sword, or just soften up the foe a little with magic, a do main job with a sword (being magically protected).

[Path of Wind]

By the way, since we discussing F/M and M/F combos, I am planning to play new game and cannot decide for myself: Ranger to Cleric or Cleric to Ranger. Same dilemma,BTW, if you start with Ranger, you get higher Priest spells, if you start with Cleric, you can be cleric kit with the bonuses (I like Priest of Latander). If Bioware would not remove possibility to dual ranger kits, I would not think and just played Stalker/Cleric.