Do bards cut it in BG2 or IWD

[Path of Wind]

Originally posted by polaris:
<STRONG>Path,

Some other points:

1. Of course a F/Mu and Mu/F are duals are different! They are *completely* different. The first is a combat mage. The second is a weak fighter with a little magic on the side (and much weaker overall IMO).

2. What does a Mu get for being a level 9 fighter while spell casting?

a. Improved potions (like potions of Invunerability which give an amazing AC bonus and +5 to your saves).

b. MUCH BETTER saves (especially vs death).

c. MUCH HIGHER HITS. This is especially important against PW Kill and other death attacks.

d. (Related to c.) Time to be flexible. If a straight mage messes up, it is game over because outside of his magic, he is weak. The F/Mu can at least fight as well (generally) as a straight fighter. This is important for such things as Mislead and Simiralicrum (sp?)

-Polaris</STRONG>

O'K, your F/M is in front line with all high saves, casting its deadly magic. But would you be hurt if near by you stands bard, which is very hard to hit, attracts some attention to give you time to cast, AND at the same time gives you another +4 to your saves and -4 to AC? Isn't it called a party support? Isn't it useful?

[ 07-24-2001: Message edited by: Path of Wind ]

[ 07-24-2001: Message edited by: Path of Wind ]

[polaris]

Path,

I agree that a Mu/F is good, but not as good as a F/Mu. Why? Hits is the basic reason. The Mu/F is stuck with a mage's hit points forever but is capped out at 5th level spells (not bad but worse than the bard), while the F/Mu has FIGHTER hit points and the full Mu selection of spells.

My real point is that they are completely different (and should be played as such), but I stand by my opinion that the F/Mu is generally better than the Mu/F. If I had to rank them, I would say 1) F/Mu, 2) Bard (esp Blade), 3) Mu/F.

-Polaris

[Path of Wind]

Originally posted by polaris:
<STRONG>Path,

I agree that a Mu/F is good, but not as good as a F/Mu. Why? Hits is the basic reason. The Mu/F is stuck with a mage's hit points forever but is capped out at 5th level spells (not bad but worse than the bard), while the F/Mu has FIGHTER hit points and the full Mu selection of spells.

My real point is that they are completely different (and should be played as such), but I stand by my opinion that the F/Mu is generally better than the Mu/F. If I had to rank them, I would say 1) F/Mu, 2) Bard (esp Blade), 3) Mu/F.

-Polaris</STRONG>

I do not contest that ranking at all. Just think bards ARE useful, otherwise humanity probably would never developed fine arts.

[polaris]

A lot of the Bard's supporters give credence to the super-high AC (*ONLY* available to the blade btw). Some problems with that:

1. A natural 20 always hits. Let me repeat that for those that didn't get it the first time: A NATURAL 20 ALWAYS HITS. That means in combat there if often (against mooks) very little difference between an AC of -15 and an AC of -30. I found that was *ESPECIALLY* true in ToB.

2. AC does not help against environmental or area affect spells. The F/Mu will have spell trap and immunities to deal with this. The bard usually won't.

In short I am not convinced.

-Polaris

[Path of Wind]

2. AC does not help against environmental or area affect spells. The F/Mu will have spell trap and immunities to deal with this. The bard usually won't.

In short I am not convinced.

-Polaris[/QB][/QUOTE]

Sorry, what immunities are talking? Do you mean (Improved) Mantle, Absolute Immunitiy, Immunity to magical energy(weapons), yes?

[polaris]

Let's talk about Melf's Meteors, Metor Swarm, Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, etc etc. Even better, how about horrid wilting, Wail of the Banshee, PW Kill, etc etc etc. The F/Mu simply will have better defenses against all of these.

BTW, Mantle is useless for either. Simply use protection from magical weapons. If you have takent the good path, you will be immune from normal weapons anyway.

-Polaris

[Path of Wind]

Originally posted by polaris:
<STRONG>Let's talk about Melf's Meteors, Metor Swarm, Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, etc etc. Even better, how about horrid wilting, Wail of the Banshee, PW Kill, etc etc etc. The F/Mu simply will have better defenses against all of these.

BTW, Mantle is useless for either. Simply use protection from magical weapons. If you have takent the good path, you will be immune from normal weapons anyway.

-Polaris</STRONG>

Agree. Potection from magical weapons+improved Inv. works so well, it is a shame to spend slots for different mantles.

[Path of Wind]

Oh, my God!!! I just realized the funniest thing. The person "at99" who actually started the thred, had only two posts, in the very beginnig, and disappeared (probably magically). And all others write, write, write...

[at99]

Maybe to keep the argument simpler you should compare bards and fi/Mu without magic items. And both are to be in a party of 5 or 6.

Keep the argument from getting too personal (since I have made that mistake myself).

There are so many chars to chose from and you can only chose 1.
How do you get more than 1 created char in your party from multplayer again?

[Dimensional]

Quick question specifical adressing a question that polaris raised - namely that a bard can not do anything else if he uses BArd song - has this been tested?

in P&P a bards song effect lasts 1 rnd /level of bard which (assuming it capps at 20 like everything else) can be a long time. a blade would be the only one who would have to keep singing his bard song not improving (therefore 1 round duration) is this infact the case - has anyone tested this - i always just assumed it set my bard singing then sent her into battle - have not actualy watch carefuly to see how long it actualy lasts.

[Xyx]

Originally posted by Arocle:
<STRONG>Bards aren't meant for solo.</STRONG>

Well... they are a bit of a one-man-army (or one-woman-army, of course). They can fight, cast and thieve, and in IWD and D&D3 even heal. None better than the specialists, but still, if you go solo you level up so fast you might have comparable powers to a specialist with 1/6th of your XP.

Only "party" thing they have is the Bardsong, which, as Two demonstrated, is still useful for summons.

As for all the different gaps a Bard can fill in a party; that's usually pretty inconsequential. A well-oiled party doesn't need many stand-ins. Even Nalia can tank in the front line if need be. Just takes more summons, Mirror Images and Stoneskins.

[Xyx]

Originally posted by polaris:
<STRONG>AC does not help against environmental or area affect spells. The F/Mu will have spell trap and immunities to deal with this.</STRONG>

Spell Trap does not work against area spells, even if they are targeted directly on you. Neither do Spell Deflection and Spell Turning. Misinformation in the manual...

Originally posted by Dimensional:
<STRONG>Quick question specifical adressing a question that polaris raised - namely that a bard can not do anything else if he uses BArd song - has this been tested?</STRONG>

I'm dying to know by now! I remember something about the effects of the song lasting one or two rounds after the Bard stops singing, which would mean you could "weave" singing, fighting and casting all into one. I also remember something about the Bard having so sing for a full round before the song took effect. That would greatly lessen its use...

Originally posted by Underdog:
<STRONG>It seems like so many people (not necessarily the originator of this post) are just trying to build the maxed out strongest character and party, when half the fun of the game is dealing with the various classes weaknesses and overcoming them.</STRONG>

The other half, for me, would be figuring out how to build an uber party. Not necessarily use all that power, just build it. I like this kind of puzzle.

[viewer]

I don't know I think I agree with the saying that Bards are good given you know how to use them. I always play with a party so I am more interested in balancing the party. I am currently a Skald and frankly though my Skald could easily be minced to pieces by my previous character, a Cavalier. In my party backed up by powerful warrior types like Keldorn and Valyger and Anomen(he is a fighter/cleric) my Skald is quiet good. Armed with the Wave halberd my PC does a far bit of damage. But if I get a bit too wounded I can always step back and start singing. My song lowers the AC of some of my characters to -8 or less and gives them other combat bonuses. As such they do more damage and the battle is over sooner than with my Cavalier even with the Carsemour.

[Sargon]

Seeing as I can't answer Polaris anymore...



How does the infinity engine handle results above 20 on attack rolls?

eg: THACO 21, roll displayed is 16+6=22.

Hit or miss?

This is relevant...natural 20s represent a 5% probability (for you number crunching powergamers...)

Dimensional:

It seems that the bard song, once started, lasts precisely one round after it kicks in (which takes a varying amount of time, probably one round). So you can get away with sing (until the effect kicks in), attack or cast, restart song and the effect does not go away.

This means you can, in effect, 'twist' or 'weave' the bard song in with spells and melee. This changes a few things, as the ability to pop off spells between pulses of the song or melee attacks has some real possibilities.

Whether this was the intended function of the song, or if its just a limitation of the Infinity Engine I'm uncertain.

[ 07-25-2001: Message edited by: Sargon the Blade ]

[polaris]

I dunno about that. I have used spell trap quite a bit (via staff of the Magi) and it seemed to work just *FINE* against all area effect spells.

I also know that when I played a bard, I had the same problem with songs that a cleric had with turning undead. If you do anything else, the song effect seemed to go instantly. I would be quite interested if that were not so.

-Polaris

[Sargon]

You can, but it makes for a high maintenance playstyle, and as I said, I'm not convinced its not an slight exploitation of the Infinity Engine. If you don't have to micro-manage every round, it is probably doable, or in a multiplayer game where you have humans controlling your party. Still kind of touch and go. Maybe a good AI script could do the trick. Dunno.

On a more humorous note, a level 18 (totemic) druid dualed to a warrior is proving to be most entertaining. You end up with a LOT of nasty tricks (AE Permanant Blind no save only magic resistance, Insect Spells, Ironskins, Heal/Harm, Elemental Resistance spells to name a few), poison immunity (nice), 10% to all elemental resistances, and 4 special abilities from the druid circle.

Arguably, you could pull this off at 15th level, get 6 spells/level, immunity to poison, and a special ability. That with 4 free immune to normal weapon summons with a fast cast time. Nice cannon fodder outside of the first few chapters really, but still. Cannon fodder is cannon fodder.

Because dual-classing relies on level not experience, you're only stuck as a single class warrior for a mere 2000000 exp, but you become a half-decent fighter soon enough. Coupled with the ability to reach 28th (26th if you go to 18th DRU), means you get the warrior special abilities to boot. The only real limitation is weapon choice.

More proof that ToB is Monty Haulistic...